Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

If your point is 'not every show does it' then you're not actually talking about this show, you're talking about other shows.

And yet I'm talking about this show and why it doing what others does is not an issue. You are holding it to a standard greater then other shows which again is my point. Because if it isn't a problem when others shows does it why is it a problem that you aren't told every last detail as soon as possible in this show?

Nothing about the scenes in question doesn't make sense. We can draw reasonable expectations of what is to come and even know some of it because of trailers released. As we know there is a fight sequence at the outpost with Arondir. Are you telling me that you were unable to come to the conclusion that there would be a fight at an outpost refugees took shelter in? Of course everything else is "whatever". Isn't that the point of an unfolding story? That you find out as you go along?

Lmao. You are literally complaining that the first chapter of the book doesn't include the entire story and that you have to read (watch) to find out the story. Holy shit is that hilarious. The double standard is you holding this show to a higher standard when it isn't an issue with other shows. Somehow this show is supposed to cram the entire story into one episode so you can know exactly what happens in future episodes. Strange, right?

[callipygoustp]

I truly appreciate your in depth views on the show. It shows true insight of more than just the story. Your analysis of the series after such a huge time investment shows true dedication and perseverance. If you attack life with the same studious determination it would not surprise me in the least to find out you were a credit to your parents and not a cave dweller, like most assume you are. Thank you again.

Heh
{10 char}

[bledgor]

Well that was...an episode.

On the positives the dwarfs are still largely great (Elrond finding out the super secret password from the kids singing and knowing the hidden door needed/where it was made me facepalm, as well as Durin IV making him swear an oath before giving him a large chunk of mithril), NO HARFOOTS (praise Tolkien), Adar was actually fine and interesting subplot that I could find myself liking, and the show actually had some good lines that sounded Tolkien.

On the negatives, Galadriel continues to be completely insufferable (the guard scene, ugh then climbing the tower like this is assassins creed?), A lot of bad lines still remained (THERE IS A TEMPEST IN ME), the Trump rally/side plot of Elendil's daughter and Pharazon's son, Miriel giving into Galadriels demands (like seriously how can anyone in the show want to do anything other than put a gag in her mouth and bind to a large rock to be thrown into the ocean), and finally the continued abuse of time/fast travel (last episode Elrond never talks to Durin IV about what he needed, but now the tower has already had its base built? We also have him travel back and forth between Eregion and Khazad-Dum like its a walk across the street. It hasn't been the 3 days of Galadriel locked up in the mean time, but who fucking knows time in this story).

Honestly I am moving from the show making me mad to just not caring about next weeks episode/the show. I barely convinced myself to watch the 4th this morning. I know certain people will froth at the mouth for me saying this, but at least at 4 hours into the LoTR trilogy I had a firm grasp on the conflict, the world, had characters I cared about, and much more. This show is trying to setup a lot but it doesn't have the characters/writing to keep me interested while they build the world around them. Will see if I watch the next/continue watching this.

[Triceron]

And yet I'm talking about this show and why it doing what others does is not an issue. You are holding it to a standard greater then other shows which again is my point.

Er?

What other shows have you seen me talk about to imply that this is the only show I have issues with? What are you using to imply I am holding it to a different standard yo any other show?

I criticized Wheel of Time for terrible pacing and narrative focus just as much as I have this show. These two shows share some very glaring fundamental world-building problems.

Lmao. You are literally complaining that the first chapter of the book doesn't include the entire story and that you have to read (watch) to find out the story

If that's what you think then you're absolutely delusional. But again, I'm not surprised considering you think any form of criticism is false criticism.

[DarkAmbient]

I truly appreciate your in depth views on the show. It shows true insight of more than just the story. Your analysis of the series after such a huge time investment shows true dedication and perseverance. If you attack life with the same studious determination it would not surprise me in the least to find out you were a credit to your parents and not a cave dweller, like most assume you are. Thank you again.

Half of an entire season is plenty to judge if a show feels worth watching or not.

[Syegfryed]

Once again for this thread, not you specifically, this post just shows a basic lack of understanding when it comes to typical character motivations shown in soooo much TV/film. She's not trying to commit suicide, she's trying all she can to actually do something to follow up on the fact she believes Sauron is still out there and is going to make his return. What else was she meant to do, just tread water for nobody knows how long and leave Middle Earth's denizens to suffer with a quippy line about how its "not my problem, I need to keep floating"?

Bold of you to say "lack of understanding when comes to motivation" when the show herself does a poor job at showing any real reason to character to do anything.

We all know what represend, of why she leave elfland to follow her goal, it does not matter, because its a retarded way to do, jumping in the ocean miles away from land is boderline suicide because its certain death, and she only gets saved by plot armor

Again, it comes down to the problem of the show having awful writing who can write something to happens that makes sense, the idea is not bad, but the writing is garbage, when they want tosmething to happen they amke something dumb to shorehorn

I dread catching up on the last few days of posts if this is where I'm starting lol I'm ready to ask again how many people have never actually read or seen any piece of media ever...

I just dread of how low your standards to think that is any good. to a point to say "not seen any piece of media", maybe you didn't watch any piece of good media for a while

In contrast, we have 4 episodes, almost 5 hour nothing happened

[Rennadrel]

It's weird, because it can be unintended. However, due to the marketing they had, it's very hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

They did it in The Boys in seasons 2 and 3, so it's not some on the nose joke, it's totally intentional.

[Syegfryed]

Nah, dude, people like you just come across as too fucking stupid to actually understand what you're watching. Its like this with you in Marvel threads, too. Remember the Loki thread? lol

Again, trying to be superior, yet you don't know shit about writing and narrative cohesion

Ah yes the Loki thread where people were that many retard to think a frost giant can get chocked out by a human with a mundane electronic wire, this is the level of stupidity stupid people think its fine, cause they don't want something ith consistency just mindless entertainment

which is perfectly fine if you don't have any standards, just don't pretend that shit is any good.

I don't know its shit. I know it has some problems and that I enjoy it in spite of those. My post lays out most of what I wanted to say on it.

"some problems" HAHAHA what nice way to sugar coat your words man

Also, the warg looks fucking amazing.

UAHEUHAEUHAUHUUHAHAHHA



this is amazing, no dude, you must be baiting, not even you can go this low, this is atrocious, this is Eddie from lion king not a worg

for all the problems the hobbit movies have, their orgs are indeed amazing, not those oversized dogs with pug eyes.

Its wild that the guy who supposedly only watched 15mins of episode 1, and the guy that argued all the 1/10 reviews were so legitimate it was a clear sign to not watch any more than he had, are still here commenting on new episodes.

Jokes on you, because i already watched the rest and its as bad and retarded as the last one, if not more, i just didn't have time to say how many shit it was

Cause i can say for example, how the numenorians are retarded and think "elves gona seal their jobs", because the showrunners didn't think of a single decent reason of why the humans would hate the elves.

what is this, some sort of demented allegory of the Germany and the jews? then KArl Marx himself cam everyone out, after they cringe-ly chant "elf lover" to the queen? and someone in a high horse want me to say the 1/10 review is not legitimate? give me a fucking brea, CGI and the visual effects alone can't salvage this crap

- - - Updated - - -

I have to say, the last ep as prob the best one because no demented bipolar hobbits

Which nothing much to say, cause still was awful all together

[Syegfryed]

On the positives the dwarfs are still largely great (Elrond finding out the super secret password from the kids singing and knowing the hidden door needed/where it was made me facepalm, as well as Durin IV making him swear an oath before giving him a large chunk of mithril), NO HARFOOTS (praise Tolkien), Adar was actually fine and interesting subplot that I could find myself liking, and the show actually had some good lines that sounded Tolkien.

Same here, but, i think adar thing with the white orcs was kinda way too cringe for me, but meh whatever, not the worst

And, have to say, Elrond is showed to be a massive moron, He went to the dwarf to seek help, and this fucker continue lying saying he went there ebcause it was time to see his friend

Thus far, the show want you to like characters who are either insufferable or liars

[Syegfryed]

Not gonna reply to everything because, let's be honest, phone posting is awful.

But I'm just gonna ask, if you're clearly not enjoying what you're watching, or think nothing has really happened, why are you still watching?

Why are you even expecting huge things to be happening when this is planned for 5 seasons? You'll get the Sauron reveal at the end of the season and that'll be the end of S1.

Because i apparently need to watch so i can give people/friends a review, and so people cannot bitch about "you didn't even watch the show how can you know its bad??!?!"

And, there is some sort of thing like watching a trainwreck or a car accident in the news, you know whats gonna happen, but you still watch it anyway, just to see the end.

[RachelMadcow]

Just found out the show creators were serious buddies with Jeffery Epstein and flew on his private plane to his island multiple times per year, interesting.

[tikcol]

Because i apparently need to watch so i can give people/friends a review, and so people cannot bitch about "you didn't even watch the show how can you know its bad??!?!"

And, there is some sort of thing like watching a trainwreck or a car accident in the news, you know whats gonna happen, but you still watch it anyway, just to see the end.

At this point I feel the same way. I'm honestly intrigued what kind of bullshit they will pull next. This show is an amalgamation of mediocrity and clichés. Why would an elf take a man's job? I wonder if they'll continue with this fearmongering instead of following the actual mortality plotline. To be honest I don't know what's worse because if they don't intend to follow it through then it was just pointless.

1st and second episodes I watched it through to the end but the 3rd and 4th episodes I didn't pay as much attention and just put it on my 2nd monitor while playing some games or doing something else.

On one hand I feel like this is an insult to Tolkien on all levels and don't even spend a second talking about it, on the other hand I'm curious to see where this ends up because it has a train wreck disaster appeal to it. Might as well see it crash and burn.

But don't let these bad faith individuals bully you out of giving your opinion because that's what they're here to do so this turns into an echo chamber. You might notice that they're not here to discuss the show per-say or actually give their opinion.

As for the show itself I'm quite happy to say that if it turns out to be a good story by the end of the season, I'll be the first to admit it. I don't want this to suck. They could have done a good show without being faithful to the material. The thing is, this is not a good show and it isn't a faithful adaptation to any degree. So yes, it's garbage.

[Syegfryed]

I don't need to try to be superior here. You can try tell me I don't know about writing or narrative cohesion, but in each post you just show how little you understand those words. You are genuinely too fucking stupid to get the point of even basic things in RoP like Galadriel's motivations, despite mentioning them and saying they don't matter /facepalm

Let me guess, you don't need to try to be superior, you just are superior, and you get to call out other people stupid because you are much smarter, too bad the mods here just target some people.

But see dear, you are so superior, but you still kep using fallacies to make a point. That is a long way to call other people stupid and you don't have the brains to understand the criticism and make up some shit to cope out.

My guy, her motivations don't matter to the point being raised, we already know then, the criticism is not about her motivations, if you pretend to act smart at least try to attack the arguments we make, the criticism is about how she do things, how they deliver the reasons/motivations, and how to write the scene. It boils down more to the writing of the story than the story itself.

Jumping on the sea, knowing it was certain death, is beyond retarded and unecesary, when they could have write anything else to show her motivations, like take control of the ship by force and order to go back, she has the power and influence to do so, then, the sea monster destroy her ship and she get saved by numenor, this is one of the ways you do that in cohesion,, but they decided to make a dramatic and retarded move.

And not only that, she go saved, TWO TIMES, by plot armor

You just want to hate. Which is why you're still watching, so you can make the hating even easier.

Im watching so i can call out bullshit, like you are doing here

Like this one, pretending we don't understand her motivations, when that is not the point, we know her motivations, but the point is her boderline suicidal jumping on the boat, that is the writters fault who cannot write to save their lives

I see the new preferred line for people to use is saying they don't have standards. Wonder who you all watched to get that one organised.

Or you know, there is so many people with actual no standarts that the line is used a lot, get good maybe?

Where is the sugarcoating? Does it not have some problems?

"some" problems"? it have an awful lots of problems

The warg in RoP is what they're supposed to look like lmao. They're not supposed to look fluffy. Change the facial expression and it's... cute.

Theya re not supposed to be fluffy, but are suppose to be cute?

The worg is atrociously bad, and this is a fucking disgrace knowing how badass the troll was, its awful and it have pug eyes.

Again, Hobbit worg was the best design, and i have no idea how they were able to make an amazing troll but fucked up a simple thing like a big wolf like that

If you can't see the quality in the RoP warg you're either blind, or willingly choosing to hate something that is good. Industry folks that work in CG are literally praising it for how good it is. Or were they all just paid by Amazon to say it was good?

Quality of what? iim not talking about the animation, im talking about the design, is awful, trying autorithy fallacy here is not going to change it.

What in the everliving fuck was this word salad meant to be?

Ok, i see you are special so i have to use small words.

The numenorians hate elves because they were jealous of the elven immortality. Even non-experts in the lore know it.

The show, for some retarded reason don't show that, they try to make the numenorians as some sort dumb country pumpkins complaining that people would go there and steal their jobs - they did that with Not-sauron, saying the southlanders would go there and take their job, despite its only one guy.

So, the show says numenorians dislike elves because they will steal their jobs, despite the fact that elves would not go there, for any reason, and their complains is nonsensical, because there is only one elf, and he is send back in three days. Then, a old guy comes, when they are chanting elf lover, and calm down the people, with some shittalk.

And in both times, with Not-Sauroin, and the guy, they solve the situation by giving everyone drinks, like people in Numenor are not just dumb alcoholics


The showrunners cannot come up with a decent excuse of why the numenorians hate elves - despite being easy - but they need the artificial conflict, and make some nonsense about people going to steal their jobs, its awful writing.

They could even have said every elf is like Galadriel, fucking insufferable, and it would be more believble than "they gonna steal our jobs"

[tikcol]

This is pretty funny coming from you, known for bullshit and bad faith lol

It's not bad faith or trying to create an echo chamber to ask someone why they're watching something they loathe. It's asking where the logic, the rationality, of an adult has gone. Do you always do/watch/listen to things you hate? It make no sense.

As for giving opinions, even when it's done, they get drowned out by the incessant bullshit the thread is populated with. If you say something is good, and there are good things about RoP, you're a corporate shill and then the thread becomes about that...

You think the warg looks amazing. To me it looks like a retarded pug.

What's the merit of me going into specifics about what a retarded pug looks like and you going into specifics about why it looks amazing? It's either subjective or one of us is full of shit. Either way, I don't care.

[Syegfryed]

I've lost the will to live reading this whole post, so I'll just reply to this line and be done.
.

Ah, so you are going to move to the pigeon chess tactics, ok, to be fair, i don't blame you, the show is so bad its hard even to defend it

Maybe watch the show and gain the will to live again, cause is soo good. Just don't be a rock that looks down.

Im actually gonna say that to everyone now, "don't be a rock to looks down Jimmy"

- - - Updated - - -

At this point I feel the same way. I'm honestly intrigued what kind of bullshit they will pull next. This show is an amalgamation of mediocrity and clichés. Why would an elf take a man's job? I wonder if they'll continue with this fearmongering instead of following the actual mortality plotline. To be honest I don't know what's worse because if they don't intend to follow it through then it was just pointless.

1st and second episodes I watched it through to the end but the 3rd and 4th episodes I didn't pay as much attention and just put it on my 2nd monitor while playing some games or doing something else.

On one hand I feel like this is an insult to Tolkien on all levels and don't even spend a second talking about it, on the other hand I'm curious to see where this ends up because it has a train wreck disaster appeal to it. Might as well see it crash and burn.

But don't let these bad faith individuals bully you out of giving your opinion because that's what they're here to do so this turns into an echo chamber. You might notice that they're not here to discuss the show per-say or actually give their opinion.
.

See, i was not expecting to be this bad, i actually though it was going to be on the hobbits movies level of nonsense, something who you could at least turn-off your brain and watch some fantasy stuff. But its just so worse that i cannot see how they waste so much money on it. I compared to fast and furious, but i own then an apoligie.

Maybe because i watched right after Sandman, so they clash of good x bad was too big.


What i dont understand, is why they didn't go with the mortality plot, sure they don't have the silmarilions rights, but they just talk about the jewels and the hammer, then, they didn't mention that Morgoth stole it, so why???

As for the show itself I'm quite happy to say that if it turns out to be a good story by the end of the season, I'll be the first to admit it. I don't want this to suck. They could have done a good show without being faithful to the material. The thing is, this is not a good show and it isn't a faithful adaptation to any degree. So yes, it's garbage.

The only hope i see, is that they fire the writers and bring competent people for season 2.

[bledgor]

The only hope i see, is that they fire the writers and bring competent people for season 2.

I did hear a rumor that the high ups are quite pissed about the shows reception, so with the ~2 year hiatus moving to England between season 1 and 2 it might get a redemption.

[Bakis]

I applauded the decision to stay away from well known people in the cast and go with less known/unknown acters/actresses but it seems the people in charge of casting didnt know wtf they were doing at times. Also really enjoy that the music is composed in a more laid back fashion, not every fantasy movie need to try to enhance the "epicness" of yhe typical constant brass or string instrument setups (LOTR). These and more make me so far think they achieved their goal of being a different kinda of serie than we are used to (hi, hollywood). There are much more I like so far but there are also things I dont like that ruin it a bit for me.

EP4 increased an uneasy feeling I've felt during the first 3 episodes in one major aspect.
That way too many support roles, minor support roles are subpar or utterly amateurish. Even some extras make me wonder who put them on the set.


I also wonder why they decided to have so few extras in shots of major important places, the amount of people is key to conveying such as a feeling.
EP4 is a glaring example:

• the angry citizens having a gathering about 'the elf' in one of the city squares if not the plaza whetever that was.
  40~ ppl, Even re-used the speaker as the character that Halbrand tried to steal the guild token from. Worthless acting as well.
• When Galadriel depart on the rowboat in the end. 25~ ppl in shot including the queen regent and her guards are in the sweaping panorama shot.
  A fishing village is more busy at the docks.
  
• The camera zooming out over the tower the refugees shelter at, 35~ ppl and its supposed to be cramped with -"every village from here to Orodruin".
  
• Khazad-dûm has 10 inhabitants.

Again I like the show. I can come up with more positives than negatives for me personally but those kinda scenes just baffle me.
They cant cut those kind of corners if to nail it the serie. If it continues I will end up thinking much less of the serie.

[InfiniteCharger]

They were ordered to withdraw so they were most likely captured as they were withdrawing. So there was nothing to signal or the orcs captured the "pigeons, runners, etc" in the process. You are creating an issue where none exists. We don't know what is nearby because we haven't been shown. The company might not yet be over due so nothing was out of the ordinary. You act as if the elves are required to be omnipotent and can never fail or be bested.

And that was my point: it is narrative convenience, AKA written that way on purpose. Not to mention no other humans or elves ever travel to this area and would notice a whole town missing? It is an absurd contradiction of the story itself: they were there to keep an eye out for something, but oh by the way they get withdrawn just at the same exact time they find something that somehow they didn't notice earlier..... Even though that "something" was a big gash in the forest where the Orcs were digging and the "thing" they were supposed to be watching for to begin with. It is just another example of characters acting dumb for narrative convenience to drag out this confrontation with the Orcs for absurd mysteries.

Just to note the point I will offer a comparison for this show and based on the same lore.

Episode 1: Galadriel Goes looking for Sauron again with her troops, they find evidence for the presence of Sauron in the cave. There is an ambush. They have to fight off some orcs and a troll. The troops all fight hard and valiantly. We cut and go to following Arondir and other Silvan elves at an Elven outpost in the Southlands. It consists of a garrison of elves living and wathcing over a town of humans with some watch posts and defensive positions. We get some exposition about the history of the area and the Southlanders.... more southland story here. Cut back to Galadriel and company reporting back to Gil Galad. They talk about what the mark could mean. A great council meeting is called, at the council we see Galadriel and her husband along with other nobles of the Noldor. Gil Galad and Galadriel come up with a plan, one part of that plan is to reinforce the troops in the South Lands with the assistance of the dwarves at Khazad Dhum since it is not far away. They also need to get more support from the Silvan elves on the other side of the Misty Mountains. Gil Galad tells Elrond to go on a mission to Eregion and to meet up with Celebrimbor who is very friendly with the dwarves. Galadriel is sent on a mission to Numenor whom the elves have some relations with even though they are no longer as close as they used to be, she is to seek information on this mysterious mark.

Episode 2: Elrond goes on his journey to Eregion and time skips to him meeting Celebrimbor. They talk about the situation with the possibility of Sauron's return. Celebrimbor mentions he has been working with the dwarves on a new construct. They then travel to Khasad Dhum, where we are introduced to the dwarves and we see them being led by Durin who is openly trading with Elves and others from Middle Earth. We learn more about the dwarves and their search for Mithril. Celebrimbor and Elrond then begin discussing the situation sauron. In the meantime, Galadriel is sailing to Numenor, it is a long sea journey and she is accompanied by some of her men. They have talks about the history of Numenor and how elves are no longer traveling there as they used to. Cut to Arondir and the Silvan elves looking for evidence of Sauron and they come across a tunnel. Some of the towns people begin mentioning rumors of people disappearing over the last few weeks. Arondir and some elves begin investigating. Cut back to Galadriel ... her ship runs into a storm and in the process they pick up some survivors from a wreck. It is bad storm and everyone is thrown around a lot. After sailing out of the storm they begin helping the survivors and asking them who they are and where they are from and one of these people is Halbrand. The Elves approach Numenor.

Episode 3: Arondir and company are still searching for these tunnels when they go to another nearby village to ask about the disappearances. They are called on to explain what is going to be done by the leaders of the local village. Arondir's captain tries to explain that no evidence of any Orcs have been found thus far and they need assistance from the people to get to the bottom of it. They begin asking people who have any information to step forward. Cut back to Celebrimbor and Elrond. They have left Khazad Dhum and go to Eregion to begin discussing their plans. The Dwarves have agreed to help in the case of any evidence of Sauron returning. In the meantime Celebrimbor begins discussing the history of the silmarils and how he has founded a guild of smiths in Eregion to craft fine jewelry approaching the level of his ancestor Feanor. Cut to Galadriel and company receiving a warm welcome from Elendil at Numenor, where they go through all the appropriate ceremonies afforded a visit from the Elves. Elendil and the Elves begin discussing the situation of Elf - Numenor relations and how the people of Numenor are a bit jealous of the Elves for their immortality, but still many remain faithful to the Valar. And of course Elendil is one of the leading members of the faithful. They then make their way to have an audience with Queen Miriel. Miriel and Galadriel have a formal ceremony where the local chiefs, generals and advisors welcome the Elf. She has an audience with the queen and her advisors about the situation with the discovery of the mark and her reason for her traveling there being to find out if they have information. They also talk about coming through a fierce storm at sea and picking up survivors. Cut back to Arondir and the elves questioning human villagers about disappearances. They get information on a few families who have reported disappearances and go to investigate. They search through the area and one of the Elves falls into a tunnel.....

Episode 4: Picks up with Galadriel going to discuss things with the people she rescued at sea. We get more information on Halbrand and his back story. Galadriel and Elendil go to the hall of records to investigate the mark. Cut to Arondir and the Silvans exploring tunnel but finding a dead end. Elves are suspicious but tell the villagers to keep a watchful eye. The Elves decide to relay information back to their higher ups. Back in Eregion we see more about this new construct the Elves are working on with the Dwarves of Khazad dhum. There is more exposition on the sharing of tips and techniqes between the elves and dwarves. They discuss mithril and how they have begun digging deeper in the mines to acquire it....... blah blah.

[Bakis]

Just found out the show creators were serious buddies with Jeffery Epstein and flew on his private plane to his island multiple times per year, interesting.

Bet Epstein, as requested, provided them with Halflings
Sorry could not resist.

[rhorle]

And that was my point: it is narrative convenience, AKA written that way on purpose. Not to mention no other humans or elves ever travel to this area and would notice a whole town missing? It is an absurd contradiction of the story itself

Almost as if the Elves are being duped by a lord of gifts? There is a clear subtext that the elves are pulling back from their "Great watch for evil" that they have been doing. So what if they are being influenced? There is no contradiction of the story. Nothing says that others have not escaped. This isn't a period of months gone by with no word of the outside world. You do realize that they don't have the internet in middle-earth, right?

Also Arondir heard a hint of the orcs in the first episode but he didn't report it. So clearly the elves weren't all that interested in watching after so long. Why is it a contradiction to the story that they haven't lost interest? Did you not pay attention to the first episode where it explained that pretty much only Galadriel thought there was still a threat? Even Tolkien did the same with the Hobbit right? Where Sauron was gone for so long that many didn't consider him a threat any longer?

The "Big gash in the forest" also didn't come until later. Remember Arondir had to chase them through tunnels under the village. They clearly decided to come out into the open likely the same time the elves were captured or withdrawing. Again maybe they were in on the plot because of Sauron in his elven disguise influencing the politics of the time? Nah it must all be BS and contradictions, right? Take off the lens of dislike and think a little about the story being told rather then being so eager to nitpick everything to death.