Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Why can't they just show the orcs being compotent on screen? It would have probably made the slower, more meandering episodes more exiting, and maybe even made us care when they them in ep 3.

They did show us that when they captured black, they push him through the tunnels and into an ambush because he doesn’t know the layout.

[bledgor]

We don't know if it was a day, and even in medieval times a footman was capable of travelling 60 km by foot in a day (so easily FAR, FAR from what could be seen from the tower). You wouldn't see smoke from that distance, esp. if the terrain is not completely flat.

You admit we have no proof of anything. We have fuck all about how far they are away. We do know that villages within a days walk of at least Bronwyns village was burned though. We know this isn't the first village they have burned/sacked, and yet with Elves traveling around to the villages none of them noticed? They just all sit at the tower, not paying attention playing cards of something? You see the issue? We have to make SEVERAL large leaps of faith to even come close to justifying how this scene could make sense because the things we have been shown (like Elrond reading lips hundreds of feet away) make this scene near impossible, as at least one Elf should have noticed something.

Like even IF we take a massive leap ignore the massive trench and the burning of the forest/towns, how then did the orcs manage to ambush the Elves in a fashion to capture them without any escaping to warn others? That is the issue, this isn't a plot hole, its a plot marina trench that we are supposed to ignore.

It would have been easy to just have his elf buddy mention how the orcs surrounded the tower, and how most of the elves died, but he thinks a few got away. However he worries now that he is in the mine/trench/tunnels that the orc force is much bigger than they expected/using tunnels for ambushes, so they should try to escape to make sure the reinforcements don't walk into a trap too. This isn't perfect but it is still much better and at least lays a foundation for what occurs/occurred.

Also funny enough since Numenor is around the world is flat at this moment (in Tolkien lore, doubt they make the world flat in show).

[Myradin]

They did show us that when they captured black, they push him through the tunnels and into an ambush because he doesn’t know the layout.

But his situation was pretty far removed from the others. Are we to believe they all discovered tunnels, jumped down, and got captured without telling anyone?

[rogoth]

You're making that sentence do an awful lot of work just to ask a loaded question that makes you look desperate. Stripping out the stupid I assume what you're trying to ask is [i]"what will people who like the show do if critics say they don't like the show?"

I mostly don't care what critics say. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don't. My definition of a good critic is one who can describe their experiences in a way that I can tell whether or not I'd agree with them, not necessarily ones I agree with all the time.

no, i'm genuinely curious to see what the rabid, frothing at the mouth vehement defenders of this show do when the people they were quoting as evidence the show is good have completely flipped their view on the product now that they're no longer being paid by Amazon (who have been proven to be buying up positive reviews from multiple sources btw), i have said on multiple occasions both here and on other platforms and sites that i have no qualms with people who enjoy the show for what it is, i take issue with people who claim to like the show because 'it's a good show trust me bro', or the usual rhetoric of 'if you don't like any of this show then you're, insert ist/phobe of the week here' or another favourite of mine is the whole 'it's not written anywhere that specifically that this COULDN'T HAPPEN therefore i'm right and you're wrong', also inserting the ist/phobe of the week for added impact.


if you're able and capable of understanding just how badly bastardised the source material is with this show, and are able to see why that might be a huge issue for some of us while still enjoying the show, got no issue with that, if you're able to see why i might dislike the cheap and chatty costume designs, while you're able to look past it and still enjoy the show, i'm fine with that, if you're able to suspend you disbelief at some of the acting in the show but can understand why it's an issue for me and others like me, again, no issue with you whatsoever, enjoy what you like and make up your own mind on it.

[Aydinx2]

So, Guyladriel

It's really hard to care about someones opinion when they can't even spell a name right.

[rhorle]

Yes, the Elves in the Hobbit were quite incompetent in letting them slip, but they were still shown to be skillful for having been able to capture the Dwarves in the first place and being able to wage war with them at the Battle of 5 Armies.

So the show is staying true to the source material by having complacent elves be incompetent but the show is bad while the original author is good? This shows the bias against the show when similar situations exist. Remember in the time period of the hobbit the elves thought Sauron was gone. It is how a large company of Orcs could show up on their doorstep unimpeded. Heck the "Watchful Peace" tolkien created even mirrors what is happening in the show. As garrisons there weren't kept up (the plague contributed as well). https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Calenardhon

That's a huge fucking failure then. They had one job lol

Right. Why is that a bad thing? Why is it that the only time it can be "good writing" is when the elves don't fail? That is counter intuitive because always having one side succeed just because they are the good guys is actual bad writing. There is no reason why there can't be failure and why "bad guys" can't be superior in some situations. Even more so when Tolkien did it and the show is echoing that.

[Triceron]

I don't think it's that important how far the reinforcements are and how much time would it take for them to to come to aid (at least at that point in time). The tower would be night impossible to conquer by people who are not trained in warfare and do not posses some serious siege equipment - so I think we can safely assume the humans of the Southlands were never seen as an immediate threat, uprising or not.

See, that's where you're drawing a completely speculative conclusion though. The Humans wouldn't have to conquer the watchtower to carry on nefarious deeds if they were to do it the same was as the Orcs making tunnels without being seen by the Elves. Think about it this way - if the Humans loyal to Sauron had the guidance of Adar to work under the watch of the Elves, in many ways like Theo already does in finding that evil sword, then what would be the difference to what the Orcs are already capable of? They don't even need to capture the Elves considering they've practically waited them out long enough for them to completely leave. Had the intentional burning of villages been held off for say a month's time, the Elves would have been long gone from the area.

See how little sense there is in the plot overall? Everything is conveniently timed to support Arondir's story. Why have the Elves begin to leave the area? To build drama between Arondir and the Human female. Why are the orcs burning stuff now? Because the show needs a nefarious plot for Arondir to uncover. This is sadly how the narrative is being moved forward. It's all built around Arondir. The rest of the plot is very contrived when you consider how patient Adar has been shown to be with his tunnelling plans under the noses of the Elves. He could literally have kept them from burning villages until the Elves were gone and continued digging paths to every village before they even remotely attacked. But the show isn't really thinking about it from his perspective, it's all being built around Arondir instead, which is what leaves the motivations of other characters completely up to speculation and guessing, and prone to inconsistent or irrational decisions by them.

As for the tower's purpose - it seems that there was none, and wasn't it the reason why the elves were finally called back? It was a relic of old times, when the threat was real and the elves were afraid of Saruman's return. But obviously it wasn't happening, and the tower & the elves were there... because they were always there. This isn't THAT surprising, really; the tower had a purpose long time ago, that purpose was slowly diminishing. There always has to come a time when you deem something useless. The elves did that, calling the people back. We don't know the whole story & the past (and the show is slow enough without additional explanations of the history). One can assume that in the past, immediatelly after the war and Saruman's disappearance, the tower was only a single element of a bigger system, and with time, it was the only thing left. And the elves finally decide even that last thing is worthless.

Which makes the whole narrative purpose of the watchtower contrived. You're explaining how purposeless it is in the story overall for me. I don't even need to tell you how pointless it is to be the center of this narrative, you already realize it.

Why is the watchtower important in Rings of Power? Because they needed a reason for this Arondir Elf character to exist in the Southlands and a setting that makes sense for him to be established there. That is it.

The watchtower and the Elves stationed there are otherwise set up to fail. They were never really there to guard the place narratively, they are merely there to support Arondir's story and be fall-guys that make his story feel all the more tragic and dramatic. The way it's actually played out in this story , they're nothing more than security guards whose duty is to observe-and-report, and they aren't even able to observe anything useful until it's already too late.

[rhorle]

But a whole army would have also been easy to spot. Not to mention it also means they snuck around all the human villages. Similarly the humans also didn't notice this giant winding trench with its burnt forest.

Some did notice. Remember Arondir doesn't rely the rumor of poison grass. It is clear there is talk of strange things happening but the humans didn't want to tell the elves. Arondir takes that threat seriously when he sees the cow. Again Arondir fails to notify his garrison (or maybe they already left and he was awol.) The trench is likely something that didn't appear until the orcs were "found out" and they no longer had to be as secret. Hence why they were tunneling to villages at first.

Why does it have to be shown on screen to understand the Orcs are competent? It has firmly been established off-screen that they are a force to be reckoned with.

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Why have the Elves begin to leave the area?

When you make comments like these it makes me wonder if you actually watched the first episode. The opposition to Galadriels hunt indicates exactly why the elves are leaving the area. Arondir's own apathy to a potential threat shows why they are leaving the area. They are all complacent. The rest is you just attacking the show to attack. Of course the story will revolve around a main character. How many stories do not? Even Tolkien created things just to conveniently support his main characters.

Yet the show is bad for echoing Tolkien himself. Strange right? It is almost as if you dislike Tolkien and some of his writing style but refuse to speak ill of him. So you funnel it all on to the show because it is a derivative and won't have that author armor.

[DarkAmbient]

Watched all 4 eps, I am confused how it manages to look quite cheap.

The difference in visual quality between this and House of the Dragon is quite stark IMO. Different shows with different themes and aesthetics of course, but besides one or two slightly dodgy CGI moments I've not looked at HotD and thought it looks cheap. I'm not sure if cheap is entirely the right word either for RoP because it's clearly had a lot of money spent on it. Maybe things seem too pristine, and some live action scenes are too obviously in a studio and poorly integrated into the CGI backdrops.

[MCMLXXXII]

The difference in visual quality between this and House of the Dragon is quite stark IMO. Different shows with different themes and aesthetics of course, but besides one or two slightly dodgy CGI moments I've not looked at HotD and thought it looks cheap. I'm not sure if cheap is entirely the right word either for RoP because it's clearly had a lot of money spent on it. Maybe things seem too pristine, and some live action scenes are too obviously in a studio and poorly integrated into the CGI backdrops.

This is a criticism I completely agree with. While I don't know the difference between the budgets. So far HotD is miles high above RoP regarding visual quality.

[bledgor]

This is a criticism I completely agree with. While I don't know the difference between the budgets. So far HotD is miles high above RoP regarding visual quality.

I never got into GoT, but is HotD using more physical sets? Or does it have better CGI integration?

[Myradin]

Why does it have to be shown on screen to understand the Orcs are competent? It has firmly been established off-screen that they are a force to be reckoned with.

Because showing your villain as compotent, rather than "Firmly establishing" they're a threat off screen, is a good idea?

[Triceron]

So the show is staying true to the source material by having complacent elves be incompetent but the show is bad while the original author is good?

Tolkien establishes the capabilities of the Elves well before he shows them being outsmarted and incompetent. This gives them depth - that they are both highly skilled in capturing, but prone to having their weakness to wine exploited as well.

This doesn't exist in Rings of Power, and they don't establish the capabilities of the Elves at the Watchtower at all. At most you see one 'fight' scene where Arondir shows himself to be physically superior to a rude boy in a tavern, and that's it. Everything expected of the Elves is implied through an assumption of the show that people have watched Lord of the Rings and know how good they are at what they do. The show doesn't set this up at all for itself.

This shows the bias against the show when similar situations exist. Remember in the time period of the hobbit the elves thought Sauron was gone. It is how a large company of Orcs could show up on their doorstep unimpeded. Heck the "Watchful Peace" tolkien created even mirrors what is happening in the show. As garrisons there weren't kept up (the plague contributed as well). https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Calenardhon

And where have I defended these points? You're making some egregious assumptions here that you think I'm somehow defending every point of Tolkien's work as being flawless or something? If I haven't said anything to defend those points, I would prefer you not jumping to that conclusion and putting words in my mouth.

I will address them on a case by case basis as I have above with explaining the Elves being outsmarted by Bilbo and allowing the Dwarves to escape. If I haven't talked about the large company of Orcs showing up impeded, then I'm not showing bias am I? You're just assuming something that I never even commented on.

Right. Why is that a bad thing? Why is it that the only time it can be "good writing" is when the elves don't fail? That is counter intuitive because always having one side succeed just because they are the good guys is actual bad writing. There is no reason why there can't be failure and why "bad guys" can't be superior in some situations. Even more so when Tolkien did it and the show is echoing that.

The point is about establishing the Elves being capable before showing them fail. Without first establishing their power, if all we see is them constantly being undermined or failing, then that is how they will be portrayed forever in this series. Everything cool about the Elves is built on the assumption that people have watched the LOTR movies.

I'll say that I think your own bias that Elves are Capable is due to your own biases. Let's remember that you were the one who thought that Galadriel's team actually hit the Snow Troll, when they never actually landed ANY blows on the Snow Troll. I think if you actually watch the series over again, you'll see that Galadriel, Elrond and Arondir are the only ones who actually show off any real Elf skill, while every other Elf is shown to be incompetent or set up to fail.

[exochaft]

It's really hard to care about someones opinion when they can't even spell a name right.

Well, the name is rather accurate since she's basically written as what is popularly considered a 'toxic male' in the circle of these writers, but since she doesn't have dangly bits between her legs it makes it somehow empowering and acceptable for... reasons. I always think back and laugh at how the movie As Good As It Gets described this sort of female writing out years ago, and it became a mainstream reality:

[rhorle]

Because showing your villain as compotent, rather than "Firmly establishing" they're a threat off screen, is a good idea?

We do see the orcs displaying competence on-screen after their off-screen antics. What you are wanting to be shown on-screen has nothing to do with competence anyways. As we don't need to watch an entire valley be torn up and destroyed just to understand that a group can do it. It is silly to even suggest that is a requirement of any story telling.

[MCMLXXXII]

I never got into GoT, but is HotD using more physical sets? Or does it have better CGI integration?

They use more physical sets, all over Europe. I must say the integration of CGI in those physical sets don't look better then those in GoT but is far superior to RoP.

[rogoth]

Why does it have to be shown on screen to understand the Orcs are competent? It has firmly been established off-screen that they are a force to be reckoned with.

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When you make comments like these it makes me wonder if you actually watched the first episode. The opposition to Galadriels hunt indicates exactly why the elves are leaving the area. Arondir's own apathy to a potential threat shows why they are leaving the area. They are all complacent. The rest is you just attacking the show to attack. Of course the story will revolve around a main character. How many stories do not? Even Tolkien created things just to conveniently support his main characters.

Yet the show is bad for echoing Tolkien himself. Strange right? It is almost as if you dislike Tolkien and some of his writing style but refuse to speak ill of him. So you funnel it all on to the show because it is a derivative and won't have that author armor.

once again showing you have zero knowledge of the source material and zero understanding of it even if you know about it, during the second age and the rise of Sauron to power, the orcs were nothing but a mindless rabble, that's why in almost all other media set in this universe they are described as such and are viewed with little threat at all.

it was during the war of the last alliance that Sauron realised this immense weakness, while his army of orcs was vastly superior in number to that of the elves and men, it was a flailing mess with no focus on a singular goal which meant that the well drilled and well armed forces from the west were able to overcome that numbers disadvantage with skill and training, which is why in the third age Sauron had many MANY orc overseers who kept the mindless rabble in check and some who were given command on the front lines to mimic what was seen in ages past, (evil cannot create anew but only mimic that which is good), the orcs during this time period regardless of the wormhole jumps happening in this show should not be organised and cohesive at all, in fact they should be holed up fearing for their lives and eking a living out of whatever scraps they can find, until such a time that enough of them are gathered to form a horde, but i guess these details don't matter when the show has bastardised so much of the lore what's another egregious rewrite among a plethora of others right?

[Rageonit]

Like even IF we take a massive leap ignore the massive trench and the burning of the forest/towns

Mate, you're the one making the leaps here.
1. You claim that the elves should have seen the trench without knowing where is it and without understanding how far a human being can travel on foot in a relatively short amount of time.
2. You conveniently ignore the fact that the tower was surrounded by huge mountain ranges, limiting the view even more.
3. You talk about burning villageS while in reality we see ONE village being ransacked immediatelly before the elves being captured (we can still see it burning when arriving on the scene). Said village is also located in a damn valley, which means the smoke would've been rather difficult to spot.
4. You make it sound like the whole Southlands are burning and the elves are blind to it, when there's nothing to support that.
5. Also, a band of elves coming home with ZERO knowledge of the danger (in fact being absolutely sure there's NO danger) can indeed be ambushed, because why not?

[rhorle]

Tolkien establishes the capabilities of the Elves well before he shows them being outsmarted and incompetent. This gives them depth - that they are both highly skilled in capturing, but prone to having their weakness to wine exploited as well.

Again did you watch the show? We learn in the first part of the first episode that the elves spent thousands of years waging a war and even after victory spent a long time ensuring no trace was left. You are also incorrect about Tolkien as he never went into in-depth background about the full capabilities of groups and races prior to engaging them as part of the story.

And where have I defended these points?

Then why not attack Tolkien's work for those flaws instead of just the show? Isn't it strange how you leave out that the show is echoing the flaws of its source material. That is why you say you'll address them on a case by case basis because you are only interested in tearing down the show and not how the show depicts Tolkien's style of writing. Just like how you say for me to take a course on story telling when Tolkien does the things you are saying are bad story telling. Strange, right? That somehow you are such an accomplished writer that you know more then Tolkien the father of modern fantasy.

Why are you interested in this show if you think Tolkien told a bad story and a basic course on writing would have been able to fix his problems?

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Well, the name is rather accurate since she's basically written as what is popularly considered a 'toxic male' in the circle of these writers, but since she doesn't have dangly bits between her legs it makes it somehow empowering and acceptable for... reasons. I always think back and laugh at how the movie As Good As It Gets described this sort of female writing out years ago, and it became a mainstream reality:

I'm curious if you feel Tauriel was "a toxic male" because she wanted to fight evil while Legolas wanted to return home?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuY384d7DEY

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once again showing you have zero knowledge of the source material and zero understanding of it even if you know about it, during the second age and the rise of Sauron to power, the orcs were nothing but a mindless rabble, that's why in almost all other media set in this universe they are described as such and are viewed with little threat at all.

Tolkien created huge auxilarry works to establish things off-screen from his main stories. Lmao. Also https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Orcs#Second_Age. Sauron had control of some orcs while others refused his leadership (at first).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But his situation was pretty far removed from the others. Are we to believe they all discovered tunnels, jumped down, and got captured without telling anyone?

Not tunnels as such but it wouldn’t be. A surprise if they were also lead to investigate something odd and then got jumped.

We know that hey had orders to go Home so they could have just found something odd on the road.