Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Orby]

Flawed is acceptable because even Tolkien himself thought it was flawed and wanted to constantly revise things. The "flat earth" thing is the biggest example but he also was going to rewrite The Hobbit "to bring it into greater harmony with the mood, language, and geography of The Lord of the Rings.". Average is of course subject to taste but a part that stands out is a letter that referenced his "normal" sales. A figure of 100 books ordered was normal but in 1972 he was told of an order for 6,000. He might even have disliked that popularity. He really benefited from the counter-culture that might not have otherwise cemented his works as the classic we know today.

I would argue it has holes, mainly because he never lived long enough to finish it. Which sucks. Its more the 'bad' side of being flawed I do not like thrown around.

[kenn9530]

I understand you are trying to defend the show, and thats cool I do agree its getting a lot of bad faith complaints but dude, lets not go crazy and start calling Tolkiens work flawed, average or just plain bad.

Tolkiens work was inspirational long before the movies came along, Robert Jordan, Robin Hobb, George R R Martin, Raymond E. Feist, and many fantasy authors credit Tolkien as inspirations. The term "fantasy"has even become synonymous with the general aspects of Tolkien's work. Even stretching into games such as Warcraft and even Dungeons and Dragons. I mean sure you wanna argue his work has maybe aged in his writing style, thats true. But anyone who holds so much power and inspiration among fantasy in general isn't a bad or average author. The fantasy genre owes alot of thanks to Tolkein... and maybe to Mary Shelly too. Lord of the Rings is still considered by many people to be one of the greatest works of fantasy to date. Fantasy would never be where it is today without Tolkien. You know there are mountains such as Mount Shadowfax, Mount Gandalf and Mount Aragorn in Canada? What flawed bad or awful author has mountains or moons of planets named after them.

You act like Tolkien was Terry Goodkind or something lol. Are you sure you are not getting them confused? (fuck Terry Goodkind even ripped off parts of Tolkiens work):P

LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.

[rhorle]

I can say and I will say, because that's the whole point of discussing 'If he were alive'.

That still doesn't change that you can't speak for him to know what he would or would not do. None of his past actions definitively states one way or the other. Hence why you've hyper-focused onto one period of his life and keep trying to discredit him being involved in an adaptation. Even now you are moving the goal posts to "fully involved" because you can't ignore that Tolkien was involved to some degree after the rights were sold.

Of course I can say you are wrong with no one knows either way. Because no one knows. You are trying to speak for a dead man. I'm not. History of Tolkien's actions indicate that what he would think about Rings of Power or how involved he would be is an unknown. The only one shit posting and arguing just for the sake of it is yourself he keeps trying to dismiss anything posted against you with those words yet continues to respond yourself. You've indicated you've since checked out of having a civil discussion. I have not. Stop using insults against me if you wish to stop discussing.

[kenn9530]

You mean this part from the article?

Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

Kind of read that as 100 million before the movies were released, an extra 50 million after. Or am I reading that wrong?

You are reading it wrong "It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007" so 2 years after the films released is what made it popular, its not mentioned how many sold before the films. The 150 million by 2007 is just LOTR books alone, he does have other books that would of become popular also after the films.

[rhorle]

LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.

LotR might have kept its popularity because of the films but it was certainly popular prior to. It is doubtful we would have anything Tolkien being created today if it wasn't for the films reigniting the IP. The counter-culture movement of the 1960's and 1970's is what really popularized his works. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...nd-the-hippies

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You are reading it wrong "It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007" so 2 years after the films released is what made it popular, its not mentioned how many sold before the films. The 150 million by 2007 is just LOTR books alone, he does have other books that would of become popular also after the films.

Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...26402420070416

It was 50 million since the films and not 50 million total. It is interesting to see how people thought Christopher was cashing in on his father's work with Children of Hurrin and “The Sellamillion”. It really shows that people just objected to anything new and eventually accepted it for what it was. Just an amusing little note given a lot of the hatred in the fandom to Rings of Power.

[callipygoustp]

LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.

The only reason the films were as popular as they were was because of the popularity of the books.

"Frodo Lives!"

[kenn9530]

The only reason the films were as popular as they were was because of the popularity of the books.

What are you smoking, they became popular because of the films as is backed by all the evidence, there was maybe a few hundred thousand copies around in the 60s, would be lucky to get in the millions by the time the films being made, the films are what made it popular not the books themselves.

[callipygoustp]

What are you smoking, they became popular because of the films as is backed by all the evidence, there was maybe a few hundred thousand copies around in the 60s, would be lucky to get in the millions by the time the films being made, the films are what made it popular not the books themselves.

Ah fuck, I replied to kenn9530 Ugh!

[Orby]

LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.

Once again you are wrong.

Maybe because you are only young enough to think the films made it popular because you never knew of it until then and were not old enough to remember a time before then. The books have had large resurgences every decade since the 1960's mostly as when the books gained huge popularity mainly due to a renewed interest in the US market around that time. The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings became required reading for the nascent counterculture around that time, pushing a lot of popularity in music, art and other cultures. then in the 80's as some schools had it put on their curriculum (lucky bustards) as well as some animated movies that gave it new life

Then move to the 2000's because of the movies which led to video games toys and whatnot, which leads to now with the show

I personally knew of Lord of the Rings in the mid 90's because of some old radio show my dad listened to where they had a Lord of the Rings audio play. Everyone knew what Lord of the Rings was even then. You only have to have been alive then to know. I mean sure it wasnt as over commercialised then as it is now but thats the state of a lot of media franchises today. Lord of the Rings was and will have a following for a long time as long as the books stay relevant, hell the Ring of Power show, love it or hate it has caused a big resurgence in book sales, not bad for an 'average' or 'bad' author.

[DarkAmbient]

It seems you are unable to read, the books sold 50 million in 2003, the films started in 2001 so most book sales are from how popular the films were, so dont talk BS now when it take 2 mins to look up some basic facts.

It seems you are the one unable to read. At the time the article was written, LOTR had sold 150 million copies, 50 million after the films. That means 100 million copies sold before the films. Surely you will now admit your error...

[kenn9530]

Once again you are wrong.

Maybe because you are only young enough to think the films made it popular because you never knew of it until then and were not old enough to remember a time before then. The books have had large resurgences every decade since the 1960's mostly as when the books gained huge popularity mainly due to a renewed interest in the US market around that time. The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings became required reading for the nascent counterculture around that time, pushing a lot of popularity in music, art and other cultures. then in the 80's as some schools had it put on their curriculum (lucky bustards) as well as some animated movies that gave it new life

Then move to the 2000's because of the movies which led to video games toys and whatnot, which leads to now with the show

I personally knew of Lord of the Rings in the mid 90's because of some old radio show my dad listened to where they had a Lord of the Rings audio play. Everyone knew what Lord of the Rings was even then. You only have to have been alive then to know. I mean sure it wasnt as over commercialised then as it is now but thats the state of a lot of media franchises today. Lord of the Rings was and will have a following for a long time as long as the books stay relevant, hell the Ring of Power show, love it or hate it has caused a big resurgence in book sales, not bad for an 'average' or 'bad' author.

Im not wrong even tolkien himself stated the sales were not great, you care to provide actual proof backing you up when all the data before the films suggest a few hundred thousand copies at most were around, ppl knowing about LOTR before the films is not the same as it being popular.

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It seems you are the one unable to read. At the time the article was written, LOTR had sold 150 million copies, 50 million after the films. That means 100 million copies sold before the films. Surely you will now admit your error...

I have made no error, films started in 2001, 50 million books were sold by 2003, and by 2007 LOTR reached 150 million, you are completely 100% wrong, i cant believe you cant even do some basic research that takes 2 mins to look into.

[DarkAmbient]

It can't be any clearer: Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

But what else do you expect from someone who shills for Star Citizen...

[Orby]

Im not wrong even tolkien himself stated the sales were not great, you care to provide actual proof backing you up when all the data before the films suggest a few hundred thousand copies at most were around, ppl knowing about LOTR before the films is not the same as it being popular.

I am not talking about sales (I think you were talking about sales with the other guy) but more or less the popularity and effect on pop culture, I am the one replying to your claim that Tolkien wasn't good or popular before the movies.

The only thing I knew about the sales was that Tolkiens books gained more popularity in sales a few years after he published them. and by a few years I mean a few decades, which might be the 60's too or most certainly post world war 2 at least. which also come under my resurgence argument

Also here are some tomato sauces.

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...tural%20change

https://www.tor.com/2019/01/03/a-new...j-r-r-tolkien/

[kenn9530]

It can't be any clearer: Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

But what else do you expect from someone who shills for Star Citizen...

The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar.

care to revised your clearly wrong statement. I can keep getting more data to prove you wrong.

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I am not talking about sales (I think you were talking about sales with the other guy) but more or less the popularity and effect on pop culture, I am the one replying to your claim that Tolkien wasn't good or popular before the movies.

The only thing I knew about the sales was that Tolkiens books gained more popularity in sales a few years after he published them. and by a few years I mean a few decades, which might be the 60's too or most certainly post world war 2 at least. which also come under my resurgence arguement

Also here

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...tural%20change

https://www.tor.com/2019/01/03/a-new...j-r-r-tolkien/

A small following doesnt mean it was popular and with the current data available it shows just a small obscure following, we can clearly see the popularity from once the films were released.

[Syegfryed]

Tolkiens work itself has tons of flaws to poor writing and bad stories and plot holes, your clearly being ignorant and holding tolkiens work to a standard that is not possible to attain, his work was average at best, the movies are what actually made the series popular and not the actual books themselves.

First of all, i never said Tolkien work is a standard that is not possible to attain, this is your lame strawman, as Tolkien quality was never the subject, but the show's

Second, you are bullshiting so hard i can smell the breath of it, trying to say the work of a man who shape modern fantasy which most authors take their base have "poor writing and bad stories" just show us that you are just desperate to make an argument.

You make no sense, you are full of fallacies and non sequitur, since you can't defend the show, you attack the author the show is trying to mimic, this is pathetic, and when you can't either, you pretend to say its a good show because people are watching, this is full delusional, and you are embarrassing yourself.

[kenn9530]

First of all, i never said Tolkien work is a standard that is not possible to attain, this is your lame strawman, as Tolkien quality was never the subject, but the show's

Second, you are bullshiting so hard i can smell the breath of it, trying to say the work of a man who shape modern fantasy which most authors take their base have "poor writing and bad stories" just show us that you are just desperate to make an argument.

You make no sense, you are full of fallacies and non sequitur, since you can't defend the show, you attack the author the show is trying to mimic, this is pathetic, and when you can't either, you pretend to say its a good show because people are watching, this is full delusional, and you are embarrassing yourself.

If you wont subject tolkiens work to a standard of quality how can you do the same for RoP, some double standards here, seems you cant take critism on an author that clearly knew his work could be improved, and the flaws are clear for anyone to see, you can still enjoy something regardless of flaws but they are still there for pretty much everything. You are reaching hard here because you are unable to back your own arguments.

[Orby]

A small following doesnt mean it was popular and with the current data available it shows just a small obscure following, we can clearly see the popularity from once the films were released.

It was more than a small following. Tolkien was well known to be featured in songs and art and and other media...

Need I remind you this existed in the 60's. One example of the popularity of Tolkien then.


Your argument seems to be based on 'it wasn't popular before the movies because I wasnt around before then'. Thats not how that works lol.

[kenn9530]

It was more than a small following. Tolkien was well known to be featured in songs and art and and other media...

Need I remind you this existed in the 60's

The data available puts around a few hundred thousands copies being around in the 60s, so yes that is a small following, we have nothing else showing how popular it was until the films.

[Triceron]

That still doesn't change that you can't speak for him to know what he would or would not do. None of his past actions definitively states one way or the other. Hence why you've hyper-focused onto one period of his life and keep trying to discredit him being involved in an adaptation. Even now you are moving the goal posts to "fully involved" because you can't ignore that Tolkien was involved to some degree after the rights were sold.

Of course I can say you are wrong with no one knows either way.

By your own admission, no one knows. By your own admission, your own examples of Tolkien working with UA would be wrong because no one still knows what he would do after.

What the fuck are you arguing?

[Orby]

The data available puts around a few hundred thousands copies being around in the 60s, so yes that is a small following, we have nothing else showing how popular it was until the films.

Once again I am not talking about sales, why you keep talking about sales with me... You were arguing sales with the other guy.

also if you want sales, look at this.
https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...nd-the-hippies

which I assume you still havent read. It explains his sales exploded in the 60's. Maybe not as much as when the mvoies came out, but it was one of his many resurgences.