[Spoilers] The Desolate Council; A Shattered Dream?

[Deleted]

I will go with "she will become raid boss in the "Light is the enemy" patch.

I agree with this, even though I won't like it.

Remember that in the priest campaign we made the remains of the Scarlet Crusade join the priesthood in Netherlight Temple? I think I identified their new leader.....

[Deleted]

Both scenarios possible. Both would be interesting imho.

[DjUntzUntz]

I was thinking about this situation and for some reason it does make a lot of sense to me. Calia is and remains the "rightful heir" to the throne of Lordaeron.
Since Lordaeron will be retaken by the alliance in BFA, it would make sense if Calia would take her position as queen of the northern parts of EK. I bet Anduin would want and love that too!
However, having a living human sitting on the throne in a place where undeads are plentiful, would have made no sense, but having a slightly/light undead Calia that could "rule" and keep the pro-alliance undeads in the capital city would be a huge plus if you ask me. Besides, it would also open the way to lightforged undead !

[Stardrift]

Will we " finally " what? You won't, Sylvanas wiped the desolate council out, read the rest of the previews.

This is such a snobby, angry, backhanded post for absolutely no reason lol

[Mehrunes]

She will offer them "cure" in form o transformation from undead, to light depended deathless, and in such way - regain Lordearon for Alliance. Simple. However devastating for the Horde

Calia doesn't consider herself Alliance in the previews.

[Arrashi]

Calia doesn't consider herself Alliance in the previews.

She probably trusts only "benevolent" voices in her head.

[Sangris]

They probably use characters like Calia and Yrel to build up leaders for enemy factions in the Light expansion. They might want variety in the enemies, so they give us crap like light-undead, light-draenei, light-orcs and so on.
One of the raids might have a council fight with all the leaders.

Would be dumb but this is where I see this going.

[Deleted]

Desolate Council real purpose was to show us some more how evil and tyrranical Sylvanas is.

[Arrashi]

Desolate Council real purpose was to show us some more how evil and tyrranical Sylvanas is.

Then they chose a pretty poor way to do it, given that even anduin and genn think she was justified.

[Combatbutler]

Desolate Council real purpose was to show us some more how evil and tyrranical Sylvanas is.

How so? What she did was pretty much a continuation of what we already knew of her.

She killed a bunch of runaways in classic for bloodstones, didn't give a damn about the horde troops in the saronite pit, being glad sindragosa silenced the grateful orc commander mid speech, fostered a hatred for all of humanity wanting to punish them for spawning Arthas etc.

[Deleted]

Then they chose a pretty poor way to do it, given that even anduin and genn think she was justified.

They don't. I think it's the last line of the actual story in the book where Anduin says that he hast lost hope that Sylvanas can change. He literally says that she's "lost". They admit that she made it look like she's a merciful person for not attacking Alliance which she wants everybody to believe were sided with Desolate Council and Caelia.

Although not in public, Sylvanas admits in the book that she can't stand anybody in her way and that Desolate Council must be dealt with. She speaks of freedom but she's the one that want to control her people at any cost. Well, with Arthas she has lost any other purpose in her "life". Playing the protective, beloved queen is all she has left.

[Tharivor]

They don't. I think it's the last line of the actual story in the book where Anduin says that he hast lost hope that Sylvanas can change. He literally says that she's "lost". They admit that she made it look like she's a merciful person for not attacking Alliance which she wants everybody to believe were sided with Desolate Council and Caelia.

Although not in public, Sylvanas admits in the book that she can't stand anybody in her way and that Desolate Council must be dealt with. She speaks of freedom but she's the one that want to control her people at any cost. Well, with Arthas she has lost any other purpose in her "life". Playing the protective, beloved queen is all she has left.

Did you read all the new preview? Its made pretty clear (we get her POV in this scene so we know what she's thinking) that Sylvanas' killing of the Desolate Council during the meeting wasn't pre-planned but a response to Calia declaring herself Queen of Lorderon. Sylvanas' actions were brutal sure but for once they do actually have some reason to them- prominent members of the Desolate Council conspired to defect to Calia and the Alliance, which is basically treason from Sylvanas' (and the Horde's tbh) POV.

[Ithekro]

And the war ends....the Alliance makes good on its promise back in Orgrimmar. The Horde is not longer there got you....it has been ended. Your races are free to do as they please. But the Horde is no more.

[Izalla]

I was thinking about this situation and for some reason it does make a lot of sense to me. Calia is and remains the "rightful heir" to the throne of Lordaeron.
Since Lordaeron will be retaken by the alliance in BFA, it would make sense if Calia would take her position as queen of the northern parts of EK. I bet Anduin would want and love that too!
However, having a living human sitting on the throne in a place where undeads are plentiful, would have made no sense, but having a slightly/light undead Calia that could "rule" and keep the pro-alliance undeads in the capital city would be a huge plus if you ask me. Besides, it would also open the way to lightforged undead !

Capital City is totally ruined, no one is sitting on any throne in there, or living in it. And Sylvanas killed all the pro-alliance undead.

[Combatbutler]

And the war ends....the Alliance makes good on its promise back in Orgrimmar. The Horde is not longer there got you....it has been ended. Your races are free to do as they please. But the Horde is no more.

That wouldn't really work they would just reform under a different name and it is quite unlikely any nation would willingly join up with the Alliance.

[Ithekro]

That wouldn't really work they would just reform under a different name and it is quite unlikely any nation would willingly join up with the Alliance.

Technically, without a clear enemy, the Alliance doesn't need to remain intact either. The game becomes Factionless.

[Aucald]

You're saying this as if there was no precedent of Blizzard's quality, or even Golden's *cough* War Crimes *cough*, to make the picture more clear than just the previews on their own.

I like to judge things with a complete a picture as possible, as it were - as I said previously, the preview sets a particular tone but I give room for additional context to change what has already been portrayed? Am I likely to be disappointed? Probably so. But sometimes surprises do occur.

[Life-Binder]

Naaru are the villains of BfA lol

poor N'Zoth, pushed aside by Windchimes




- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas vs Desolate Council = Palpatine vs those 3 Jedi noobs that came with Windu to arrest him xD


"its treason, then"

[Isenholt]

Alright, I think I finally managed to track down the pages I was missing. I don't know what the hell is wrong with my amazon account, but my wife got a few pages I didn't get, then I finally ended up going to wowhead this afternoon to read them all.

Such revelations. I'm really pleased that Alonsus is getting some exposure, I have said before that he would have to be involved somehow if the Forsaken are to be shown as anything but monsters, and here we are. We finally get to see the humans that some of the Forsaken still are, and it is truly tragic, but with a tinge of hope for the future.

I see that some people hate this and wish it didn't exist, and I understand and respect that. This whole preview makes defending Sylvanas an even more difficult proposition, and she is indeed well loved by many.

I'm not here to rub salt but I'm honestly curious: when you read that Parqual was the one who forced Calia's hand because he wanted to be with his daughter not for a mere afternoon, but thereafter, and he thought this defection was the only way; when you read that Vellcinda remained loyal to Sylvanas, as did several of the other members of the Desolate Council who were shot down like dogs as they returned obediently to their Dark Lady; when you read that the Felstone boys, who were confused and trying to protect their living Mother, even as they were being pierced by arrows....How do you come away from that and blame the Naaru Saa'ra? Calia? Anduin?

Sylvanas made it a point to twist the blade on those who were rejected by their human relatives, after all, a miserable, bitter subject is a loyal subject. The way it is written in the Novel, she looks like a clear cut manipulator. "Oh I warned you sweetie, they would never accept you. No one loves you like I do..." Sound gross to you? It frigging should. She was feeling satisfied until she saw that some of the Forsaken were getting along just fine with their loved ones. That alone would be simply distasteful, but when she sees a Menethil out on the field....she goes ballistic. This part, I actually understand more, because she suffered greatly at the hands of Arthas and this woman represents a threat to her kingdom, sure I get it. Then she murders her "own" people. How do you think the rest of the Forsaken would have felt in that moment if they were witness to that slaughter? It was dark rangers who were entrusted with the deed, that alone should be evidence enough.

Unless we have a serious case of unreliable narrator in BtS, I'm really not convinced that Saa'ra has a secretly malevolent plan to manipulate Calia, Anduin, Alonsus, or the Forsaken for nefarious ends.

M'uru allowed himself to be used by the Blood Elves, knowing that it would lead to the redemption of the Blood Elves. Why can't this be that moment for the Forsaken? I'm filling in blanks here, but it seems like Calia has/had the reluctant queen thing going on. Unless she lied to Anduin (which I grant, is possible), she had no plan to usurp. Is it so hard to see that she does feel for these people? Her Father's former subjects? She's a Priestess of the Holy Light, let fly with the mary-sue crap, but I don't buy it. Perhaps now, in this new form, she is more equipped to help at least some of her people. We don't even know what this new form truly entails, only what it implies *Undead Paladins *

I get that many people are on the evil windchime kick, but seriously? The novel juxtaposes X'era against the other Naaru at large, calling her dangerously strict and implacable, and again, the Naaru are not the Light itself, simply the beings closest to it (that we know of) and obviously fallible; hell I'm not even convinced they are entirely sentient in a classical sense but that's not a subject for this thread.

[Deleted]

Alright, I think I finally managed to track down the pages I was missing. I don't know what the hell is wrong with my amazon account, but my wife got a few pages I didn't get, then I finally ended up going to wowhead this afternoon to read them all.

Such revelations. I'm really pleased that Alonsus is getting some exposure, I have said before that he would have to be involved somehow if the Forsaken are to be shown as anything but monsters, and here we are. We finally get to see the humans that some of the Forsaken still are, and it is truly tragic, but with a tinge of hope for the future.

I see that some people hate this and wish it didn't exist, and I understand and respect that. This whole preview makes defending Sylvanas an even more difficult proposition, and she is indeed well loved by many.

I'm not here to rub salt but I'm honestly curious: when you read that Parqual was the one who forced Calia's hand because he wanted to be with his daughter not for a mere afternoon, but thereafter, and he thought this defection was the only way; when you read that Vellcinda remained loyal to Sylvanas, as did several of the other members of the Desolate Council who were shot down like dogs as they returned obediently to their Dark Lady; when you read that the Felstone boys, who were confused and trying to protect their living Mother, even as they were being pierced by arrows....How do you come away from that and blame the Naaru Saa'ra? Calia? Anduin?

Sylvanas made it a point to twist the blade on those who were rejected by their human relatives, after all, a miserable, bitter subject is a loyal subject. The way it is written in the Novel, she looks like a clear cut manipulator. "Oh I warned you sweetie, they would never accept you. No one loves you like I do..." Sound gross to you? It frigging should. She was feeling satisfied until she saw that some of the Forsaken were getting along just fine with their loved ones. That alone would be simply distasteful, but when she sees a Menethil out on the field....she goes ballistic. This part, I actually understand more, because she suffered greatly at the hands of Arthas and this woman represents a threat to her kingdom, sure I get it. Then she murders her "own" people. How do you think the rest of the Forsaken would have felt in that moment if they were witness to that slaughter? It was dark rangers who were entrusted with the deed, that alone should be evidence enough.

Unless we have a serious case of unreliable narrator in BtS, I'm really not convinced that Saa'ra has a secretly malevolent plan to manipulate Calia, Anduin, Alonsus, or the Forsaken for nefarious ends.

M'uru allowed himself to be used by the Blood Elves, knowing that it would lead to the redemption of the Blood Elves. Why can't this be that moment for the Forsaken? I'm filling in blanks here, but it seems like Calia has/had the reluctant queen thing going on. Unless she lied to Anduin (which I grant, is possible), she had no plan to usurp. Is it so hard to see that she does feel for these people? Her Father's former subjects? She's a Priestess of the Holy Light, let fly with the mary-sue crap, but I don't buy it. Perhaps now, in this new form, she is more equipped to help at least some of her people. We don't even know what this new form truly entails, only what it implies *Undead Paladins *

I get that many people are on the evil windchime kick, but seriously? The novel juxtaposes X'era against the other Naaru at large, calling her dangerously strict and implacable, and again, the Naaru are not the Light itself, simply the beings closest to it (that we know of) and obviously fallible; hell I'm not even convinced they are entirely sentient in a classical sense but that's not a subject for this thread.

Going to answer to the 'evil windchime' thing, because it was one of my shticks through the threads here

First of all, I know that this is all kind of 'reading between the lines' and nothing I am speculating about this must neccessarily be true.
But anyway, what I think is not that Saa'ra is being malevolent here. I also don't think she is being Xe'ra levels of dominating. What I do think is, she and the other Naaru are following a closely knit plan against the void and key moments in Azerothian history absolutely have to turn out as they planned or their plan will fail. While Xe'ra was the one who would not let anything ever be decided by chance, not a key moment, no other moment either, no deviant thoughts or research allowed, I think Saa'ra and most of the other Naaru contend themselves with actual keyfigures and keymoments they need to bring about and bring to the conclusion they have to have in their plan.
Their plan is important, because it concerns the 'eternal conflict'. And everything and everyone must be second to their goal of winning it. It's not because they enjoy killing or using people or because they envy mortals for their free will, nothing of the sort. For them it's sheer neccessity that their plan be enacted as they saw it or they lose to the void and creation ends.

The way I read this here was that Saa'ra's job in the plan here was that Calia Menethil must be in place, the meeting takes place, Calia reveals herself, Sylvanas goes nuts, Calia gets killed and then brought back as a holy Forsaken (or whatever she is now).
All of those things could have been prevented or made to go different in any way if the people involved hadn't been at least slightly nudged in the right direction or in the case of Calia been hit over the head by a catchphrase that Saa'ra told her and that rushed back to her in the exact right moment that she heard the right words (spoken by Fintallas) on the field. She jumped to a decision that even she knew only a second before that was utterly dangerous and not what she had actually come for, but did it anyway, because she suddenly realized it was her destiny , when Saa'ras words came back to her.

The malevolence you could see in this is, that Saa'ra promised her, she'd get rid of her nightmares when she was ready and only then. Those nightmares tormented her greatly and for a very long time and yet, they were what made this whole scene possible. And telling Anduin that he could do nothing but mourn and then not answering his call when he tried to heal Calia, which, again, would have changed the course the whole thing just had to run.

This is exactly what we saw from the Naaru so far. They have a plan and make people (like Velen, who admitted the Naaru forced him to inaction at times) go along with it, no matter how many people die because of that or how great a toll that takes on those people's conscience. And they don't even tell them about it!

Maybe, down the line and later on in the story, we get to see their 'bigger picture' for ourselves and some or even most of us may choose them as allies and freely work together with them, even letting them tell us we need to watch loved ones die, because it must be so for the plan to succeed. We've seen people do this lots of times in Warcraft. But to not even tell us and to let us think it's just because we failed and did not try enough that they died, that is (in my eyes) the big problem.
On the other hand, you could say, we may all just act the Illidan way 'I know better' and ruin their plan. And that's where the free will comes in. Do we want it? Then plans may fail, people may choose evil and all may go to shit. Or do we not want it? Then what are we doing all this for?

One last thing I think is, the Naaru are getting a little less subtle at the moment, because the void is coming nearer and making bolder moves and they need to up their game, for their plans to succeed.


So, lengthy explanation for: no I don't think all Naaru are evil, but even if they're the good guys, they're not the nice guys. ^^