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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Quick tip.
    Are you a moderator?

    it most likely will stay a wargame, just not random or specific que.
    Nah, it's being removed completely. The two raid BGs are being added to their own specific "Epic BG" queue (or whatever they're calling it). SotA is just getting axed.
    Last edited by therealstegblob; 2018-05-25 at 04:45 PM.
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  2. #42
    High Overlord
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    I'm pretty stoked for this tbh: SotA was annoying even when it came out back in Wrath, but it became fucking awful when they later reworked it. It's been permanently on my blacklist ever since the feature was implemented.

    Now they just need to remove Battle for Waterworks, and we'll be set.

  3. #43
    Battle for Gilneas sucks too, yeah. Huge problem with it is that it's a three-node BG. Meaning, yeah, most matches just turn into a fight over Waterworks with occasional pushes/defenses on the other two nodes.
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  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire Wramp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    When I heard it was going to be removed, I started running it to go from 27 wins to 100. Three weeks later, I am still at 27 wins.
    Screw that BG, screw PvP, good riddance.
    i came to this conclusion 5 yrs ago, but all the same, welcome to the family :-)
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Battle for Gilneas sucks too, yeah. Huge problem with it is that it's a three-node BG. Meaning, yeah, most matches just turn into a fight over Waterworks with occasional pushes/defenses on the other two nodes.
    The only real issue is how hard it is to break a node loose. It could be fine as 3 nodes if the nodes were further apart. As it is, there is almost no way in the world to cap a node before the enemy reinforces it from the other node they control.

    Now, with good coordination (if you've got a shot-caller and everyone listens to them... good luck in a rando), you can feint hard at WW (send 4-6 people for an initial push, when the enemy reinforcements come, 2 of those people bail and you send your other 3 (leaving one or two on D) to hit the other node immediately while the fight is still going on at node 2. That can usually break one loose...

    But getting people to listen and actually do that quick enough (you have to move on node 3 IMMEDIATELY when the reinforcements start heading towards node 2) is like herding frogs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Look at how you're describing this BG, man.

    It's not PvP to run back to the beaches and DPS down stationary targets.
    Not all PvP is loldethmatchinabawks. Sometimes, there are goals that dont involve fighting other players that can win you the game.... in ANY of the BGs.

    Sure, PvP can happen because of it (some people may defend the demolishers) but it's all stupid. Running back to the beaches to get into a demolisher and then sloooooooowly drive it all the way up the map while never PvPing anyone (just hoping you don't get attacked by a feral druid or something) isn't PvP.
    Again, not all PvP is loldethmatch.

    Im not saying it's a great BG (it isn't), but "PvP" doesn't solely mean "two toons fighting". It means one player, or team of players, vs another player or team of players, trying to win the game via the objectives (in the case of BGs, those objectives are not always kills, in Arena, the o bjective is "kill the other guys first")

    Sometimes, youll do things that never involve you fighting another player, but are essential to a victory for your team. That's still PvP.

  6. #46
    I honestly find it a rather strange occurence that pretty much any BG outside of the Vanilla ones is controversial, granted AV also sort of falls into the mix because not everyone likes to Zerg or Rush.

    I'm not even disagreeing, i like AB and WSG, Gilneas and Twin peaks,too, but the rest? No thanks, Kotmogu is just atrocious BG in both random and rated, Silvershard doesn't feel like it belongs into WoW (anything that involves this "body" tap like Silvershard and EotS towers is bad), SotA was only fun as ranged Dps before they removed the passenger seat and IoC is an imbalanced shitfest.
    EotS has this awkward tap mechanic in random bg's mentioned above, rated doesn't fare better because the general accepted strat is to take two bases and bash your head in the middle, with occassional ghost inc happening.

    Deepwind gorge is frustrating because the cart is located right next to the GY, if you have a Tank (especially DH) you have won, else picking carts is off limits, therefore the BG turns into Gilneas except worse.

    Seething shore, haven't played that much, but it also feels not that fun, gotta see how a general meta / strat evolves there.

    I have yet to find a *new* BG that i actually enjoy (outside of the Cata ones), but somehow the Vanilla ones still rule for me.

  7. #47
    I like AB, WSG, Twin Peaks, and Silvershard the most.

    While Sivershard has the annoying "pile in" mechanic, since the objects move its actually fairly strategic. Since most teams seem to just zerg around, if i can get my team to listen and just.. disengage when they zerg, its absurdly easy to roll around them and take the ones they leave with one guy. Then theyll zerg back to that, and you go back and retake the one they just took just in time to cap it.

    I like that you can optimize on people trying to just pile in, and punish them for it.

    Deepwind is.... i dunno. It was OK in WoD, when you could actually successfully heal people through 3-4 dps if you had 2 good heals on them. Now.. its pointless unless you have a godlike tank and a pimped out healer or two. It needs some rebalancing on the nodes, because its too easy to just zerg from one to the other (theyre too close).

    I have the same issue with Gilneas. Most of the time, whoever gets the first two wins, because the other team will just smash their faces into Waterworks trying to take it when that isn't even possible. The other two points are too close to waterworks, as well, as it is far too easy to spread out d (5 to a node) and then shift 3-4 around and still get back to your original node if you need to. The two outlier points need to be as far away from Waterworks as they are from each other.

    EotS is... passable. If you get a team that understands how to reposition WHILE you're losing a node instead of standing and dying at a hopelessly lost node for no reason, you can easily fight the mob tactics that usually prevail here. It can be fun. But 80%+ of the time its just both teams with 2 nodes, and then a mindless shitfest in the middle.

    Kotmogu is the closest the game has to a permanent TDM map, and its probably the map i like the absolute least. It's pure shit.

    The two big guys are both badly broken now because of how the game has changed and they haven't. One is unwinnable for one faction (AV is unwinnable if Alliance arent completely asstarded), and one is decided almost entirely by who caps Glaives first or knows how to exploit bombs and NOT capping the correct GYs. They both need total overhauls.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Not all PvP is loldethmatchinabawks.
    You're trying to argue that not all PvP is "loldethmatch", yet that's primarily only what SotA is. Well done? Further than that, though, it's fine if a PvP battleground has some components that aren't directly fighting other players (something like Alterac Valley is a very good example of this) but in SotA all you do is run down to the beach and either jump in or attack a demolisher. If you jump in a demolisher, then you just slooooooooooowly drive it up to the gates hoping no one attacks you.

    So no. Completely incomparable to anything else. SotA's vehicles are just bad.
    Last edited by therealstegblob; 2018-05-25 at 08:36 PM.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    You're trying to argue that not all PvP is "loldethmatch", yet that's primarily only what SotA is. Well done? Further than that, though, it's fine if a PvP battleground has some components that aren't directly fighting other players (something like Alterac Valley is a very good example of this) but in SotA all you do is run down to the beach and either jump in or attack a demolisher. If you jump in a demolisher, then you just slooooooooooowly drive it up to the gates hoping no one attacks you.

    So no. Completely incomparable to anything else. SotA's vehicles are just bad.
    It's apparently Strawman day.

    I never said they were good. At no point. Ever.

    You're arguing against a made-up idea that i never said.

    I stated that your assertion that that it "isnt really PvP" if you're not fighting other players characters directly is wrong.

    And... if that's what you think about SotA, (that its just fight demolisher or ride demolisher).... yeah.

    There are lots of things you can do that involve neither that help a great deal. Spin bombs. Attack the enemy on the road when you are on D (they will often dismount to fight you, which is stupid as hell of them and you can often drag 3-4 of them off the objective because they see a red name and have to kill it). Harass respawns. If you're a stealther, tunnel their healers so they have to either get peels from their team (distracting more people from the objective) or get slowed down so much they cant keep up and help their team.

    If you're familiar with Warhammer 40k, you might be aware of the Tyranid tactic of DISTRACTION CARNIFEX!!!!!.

    You can use similar tactics with Demos, to make Bombs far more useful. DISTRACTION DEMO FLEET!!! at the last gate while you're mass-planting bombs is almost always a better choice.

  10. #50
    Dreadlord Konteil's Avatar
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    they need to just make a team deathmatch pvp bg or a few of them. i would pvp all day every day for tht.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    I stated that your assertion that that it "isnt really PvP" if you're not fighting other players characters directly is wrong.
    And I never asserted this at all. So much for 'strawmen', amiright?

    You go on a tirade about all the PvP elements in SotA but this is entirely pointless. Nowhere do I claim there's absolutely no PvP happening, I'm just saying the majority of the battleground is bad because it involves vehicle PvP and blobbing at gates with no amount of real teamwork or skill involved. It's bad and it's being removed because of it. Don't like it? Argue with Blizzard, man. They're on my side on this one.
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  12. #52
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
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    I don't think this map was horrible at first in wrath. damage for everything was scaled correctly.

    PVP in general has degraded over the years. It simply isn't fun now as it used to be.

  13. #53
    Shame. I liked it. IOC should definitely be deleted. Probably deep wing gorge. Would not weep a single tear if the pathetic capture the flag jokes were removed.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    And I never asserted this at all. So much for 'strawmen', amiright?
    Hmmm... short memory:

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Running back to the beaches to get into a demolisher and then sloooooooowly drive it all the way up the map while never PvPing anyone (just hoping you don't get attacked by a feral druid or something) isn't PvP.
    Thats you, claiming that doing activities that dont involve directly fighting other people isn't really PvP. /sadPriceIsRightNoise

    You go on a tirade about all the PvP elements in SotA but this is entirely pointless. Nowhere do I claim there's absolutely no PvP happening,
    Since i never said you claimed that, im not even sure why you're talking about it.

    I'm just saying the majority of the battleground is bad because it involves vehicle PvP and blobbing at gates
    It can and often does involve that, especially in Randos. It doesn't have to be that way.

    with no amount of real teamwork or skill involved.
    And yet with a modicum of teamwork i can lead a 4-minute offense. Weird.

    It's bad and it's being removed because of it. Don't like it? Argue with Blizzard, man. They're on my side on this one.
    I never said it was good. Stop it with the strawmen, for fucks sake.

    I said your claims of "its not real PvP", "there is no skill", "there is no teamwork" are all bullshit. And they demonstrably are.

    There ARE tactics that will win you the game easily, particularly in randoms, if you can even get 3-4 guys to go along with you. WHile all your Randoms are piling up at Green, take 3-4 guys and hard swap to blue with bombs. Its gone before the other team even realizes it.

    When you blow blue, swap to purple instead of heading for red. They will expect you to go to red.

    Etc, etc.

    Again, you're conflating my debunking of your statements with me saying i like Strand... and i never said that. I dont like it at all, really, and never did. That doesnt mean that it isn't PvP, however, and that doesn't mean that with a bare modicum of teamwork you can be at yellow and sometimes on to the Titan relic while the opposing team is still spawning at the demos well behind you..

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    post
    I'm not dissecting your whole post, especially because I see you're resorting to iamverysmart tactics of spewing "DEMONSTRABLY TRUE". Next you'll start saying OBJECTIVE FACT.

    Anyways, you're strawmanning me at this point. I never said you couldn't have any teamwork in SotA. I said there's room for hardly any of it, and there simply isn't. When it comes to the last two gates, there's no "spin bombs", there's no "spin demos". You just zerg up to the gates. If the enemy teams wants to kill the demos, you don't have the micromanagement over your team to stop them. A couple of DoTers will kill the demos before they can do any damage to the gates, especially the Relic chamber door.

    I get it. You think totally random pub play where anecdotal happenings means anything. I don't think it means anything. Just because you can usually convince a couple of guys to help you run bombs or something doesn't change the fact it's a blob vs. blob zergfest. It was a bad, unfixable BG. Now it's gone.

    Thats you, claiming that doing activities that dont involve directly fighting other people isn't really PvP. /sadPriceIsRightNoise
    Yeeeah, kiddo. But here's the thing. Driving that demo up the beach hoping it doesn't get attacked? That's not PvP. It's a bad mechanic in a PvP BG. I get what you're desperately trying to say, but I completely disagree with it and I believe you're wrong. You tried so hard to be smug and all you did was look like a dipshit. How sad

    When you blow blue, swap to purple instead of heading for red. They will expect you to go to red.
    As I mentioned earlier, I'm speaking about Yellow Moon and Relic Chamber door. Not the first two gates. You should've understood this by now.
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  16. #56
    Brewmaster Berthier's Avatar
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    a move in to the right direction remove pvp
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  17. #57
    SotA is just badly designed in a way that it is extremely difficult to gain control of the match. You already know you lost if the attacking team plows through the first gate within a minute. Silvershard and Temple are also like this.

  18. #58
    I was indifferent to this map but only because the siege engines the bombs and the cannons were pretty meaningless. Blizzard's effort to not "frustrate" anyone always ended in making shitty lukewarm crap that noone liked in the end.

    Imagine if the siege engines the bombs and the cannons could actually damage players or walls etc. The havoc created would make the game more interesting. Now you just 5 shot the siege engine the bomb scratches the wall etc. Just BORING.

    So yeah while I never hated it I also never liked it so I wont miss it.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I'm not dissecting your whole post, especially because I see you're resorting to iamverysmart tactics of spewing "DEMONSTRABLY TRUE". Next you'll start saying OBJECTIVE FACT.

    Anyways, you're strawmanning me at this point.
    No, i'm not. You actually posted those things. we can go back and read them, you dolt

    I never said you couldn't have any teamwork in SotA. I said there's room for hardly any of it, and there simply isn't.
    And, you're wrong.

    When it comes to the last two gates, there's no "spin bombs", there's no "spin demos". You just zerg up to the gates.
    .... asciipicardfacepalm.

    No, you beat the enemy there and blow them with bombs. You deliberate DONT cap one of the demo garages so they continue to spawn behind you.

    If the enemy teams wants to kill the demos, you don't have the micromanagement over your team to stop them. A couple of DoTers will kill the demos before they can do any damage to the gates, especially the Relic chamber door.
    I dont need to micromanage the team. I just need 2-3 other people to listen to me.

    I get it.
    You really don't.

    At this point, what you've proven is that you'd have trouble finding your behind with a map, both hands, a GPS, and Google Maps.

    You think totally random pub play where anecdotal happenings means anything. I don't think it means anything. Just because you can usually convince a couple of guys to help you run bombs or something doesn't change the fact it's a blob vs. blob zergfest.
    Yeah, it does. Because when its done right, it doesn't have time to become a blob, because the enemy team is still fighting your randoms while you're behind them blowing up gates.

    It was a bad, unfixable BG. Now it's gone.
    Aaaaaand? Again, I. Never. Once. Said. It. Was. A. Good. BG.

    Yeeeah, kiddo. But here's the thing. Driving that demo up the beach hoping it doesn't get attacked? That's not PvP.
    Is it an activity that helps me and my team complete the objective? If answer = yes, then it's PvP, wether you like it or not. Standing at a node literally fighting no one the entire game in AB, is still PvP. Because you were there to prevent an easy stealth cap or solohero from grabbing it off. You can do 0 damage, 0 heals, and have 0 kills and be the damn MVP in a BG.

    It's a bad mechanic in a PvP BG.
    ... 'kay. I don't recall claiming otherwise. Try to keep up junior.

    I get what you're desperately trying to say,
    You don't. That much is laughably obvious. I understand that you cant fathom that i can both think that it is a bad BG (which ive said several times in this thread alone), AND know that yes, there are in fact strategies, tactics and teamwork that can make a win a near 100%-certainty. I dont like the BG. Never have, not from the day it was introduced. It sucks.

    But that doesn't make you right on any of your dumbass assertions.

    but I completely disagree with it and I believe you're wrong. You tried so hard to be smug and all you did was look like a dipshit. How sad
    I think if we straw-polled the audience, the only one people think are being a dipshit or an idiot is you. I might be rated as "being an asshole", but that's just sorta how i do.

    As I mentioned earlier, I'm speaking about Yellow Moon and Relic Chamber door. Not the first two gates. You should've understood this by now.
    Let me lay it out for you.

    You're in a rando. You get 2-3 people to agree to work with you on the boat. Or you joined in a partial group. You hit the beach. The other randos head for green (90% of the time). You... grab a bomb and wait. You let the randos get stuck in (and the other team zerging them) at green. Then you take your three friends and hit blue. Its gone before the other team even realizes you're there. If they left one dude to watch the door, he cant possibly stop 4 guys. Boom.

    Blue will go down, and the enemy team will expect an immediate attack on the demo garage. don't do that. Grab new bombs, and head along the wall into the river, take the river under the bridge, and head to Purple. Most of the enemy team will still be stuck in with your randos at Green, but a few (5 or so, usually, sometimes more) will be trying to prevent the attack on the demo garage that isn't coming, and/or heading to red to defend it against the obvious attack. They usually dont even notice you sneaking along the wall to purple. Number of times ive even been targeted when doing this is single-digits out of hundreds of games played (because i never blacklisted this BG - that was reserved for IoC and AV).

    You blow Purple. At this point, the enemies at red will backtrack to purple, trying to figure out WTF is going on. If you're fast, you can get new bombs and be at Yellow before its possible for the enemy to get there. So unless they sent a guy or three to yellow already, the chances of them stopping you are near-zero. Blow yellow and run into the relic area. Grab bombs, and leave one of your team with a good AoE snare or root to slow the (few) guys coming at the door.

    Game's over at this point, unless by some miracle the enemy team did a full-on fallback the moment you popped purple. Even if that happened... you now only have to face "the blob" at the relic door.... and that's a maybe. As long as no one is stupid enough to cap the Blue Garage (this is unlikely, as the randoms will usually grab it) or SGY (this is a little more reliable; even the randoms finally seem to have realized after a decade that SGY is a trap), the other team will still spawn down by the garage, so if your team can kill them, you can send them to a far GY with a huge ride back while you push on the gate. If the randoms captured the blue garage, then the best thing your little mini-team can do is stand in the yellow gate and slow the enemy down when they respawn outside, letting your rando blob wipe out their gate defenders and slowing reinforcements. Dont even try to get kills - just try to keep the enemy team split up and harassed.

    Its not rocket surgery.

    Its a strategy that wins the BG against most random teams in 4-ish minutes. Its reliably repeatable. Is it a random and therefore not that important? Sure. Absolutely. Does it make the BG good somehow?

    Nope.

    Not one bit.

    But its a reliable strategy that employs multiple tactical paths to victory and works even better with teamwork.
    Last edited by Kagthul; 2018-05-26 at 03:48 PM.

  20. #60
    Oh my God dude, jesus. I'm not dissecting your whole dumpster of a post especially because you seem to have the mentality of a 17 year old, but let me touch on a couple major things you said.

    No, you beat the enemy there and blow them with bombs. You deliberate DONT cap one of the demo garages so they continue to spawn behind you.
    Right. You blob vs. blob them in a big meatgrinder, lol. That's what I have been fucking saying this whole time. And I also touched on how it's stupid that you 'deliberate' don't cap things. It's stupid design.

    Aaaaaand? Again, I. Never. Once. Said. It. Was. A. Good. BG.
    Aaaaaand? Again, I. Never. Once. Said. You. Said. It. Was. Good. So. The. Embarrassingly. Stupid. Fucking. Iamverysmart. Attitude. Is. Embarrassing.

    I'm saying that despite your attempts to defend things like blob vs. blob as being "fighting back the enemy team" or "riding up the entire map very slowly is pvp" that none of that is as positive as you're trying to spin it. It's entirely a bad BG. Not saying you're saying it's good. Why don't you learn to read before you start trying to act smug? It's really, hm hm hm, shall we say, *~le cringe~*?

    I think if we straw-polled the audience, the only one people think are being a dipshit or an idiot is you. I might be rated as "being an asshole", but that's just sorta how i do.
    Go back to the fucking toolbox, man.
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