Oklahoma GOP Governor Candidate Proposes Euthanasia for Poor and Disabled People

[GreenGoldSharpie]

No Post-modernism denies that any narrative is "true"; the narrative is told by a group of people and so it is "true" for them. But that narrative is not true for others.

So "our country is built on equality" is true, in this way of thinking, to the patriarchy, or the people at the top. But not true to people that have been disenfranchised.

When you combine the two ideologies you get a very toxic brew.

Again, no, you're wrong. For one, there's no fucking reference to marxism in that definition at all. Second, that is, again, not what postmodernism means. Third, dollars to doughnuts you're doing nothing but watching and reading shit like Peterson.

I figured you wouldn't watch a video by an actual trained philosopher on the subject, and I posted it anyway....

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If nothing is true or false, it explicitly means there is no narrative.

This. /tenchar

[JohnBrown1917]

As the right rapidly moves extreme right and elects/nominates open nazis, pedophiles, misogynists, and people who are as offensive as possible, you still think it's the left who is polarizing society? Man you and Theo have been hitting the spiked kool-aide hard.

We got 4 far right parties in power in Europe... not a single far left one.

Gotta keep that boogeyman up.

[Gestopft]

Because I feel I am on the left. And because I feel the right is way too gone in their mistrust to actually talk to them.

Not to pile on, but your position is basically “polarization is damaging us, and the right can’t be reasonable, so the left should just give in?”

[JohnBrown1917]

Because I feel I am on the left. And because I feel the right is way too gone in their mistrust to actually talk to them. And because when I do talk to people on the right, they most immediately think I am talking down to them. But it seems I am not on the left anymore, so maybe I should stop criticizing a party I no longer am a part of... and just plain vote 3rd party.

You're just now realizing the dems are not left-wing? or did I misunderstand?

[GreenGoldSharpie]

No, the left should use a different tactic... not identity politics. They should use the same narrative that MLK did.

As it's pointed out to you over and over, King would have hated the shit you're spewing.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

That is what I find funny... they both play on each other when they should not. But there is a narrative... the narrative of the oppressed and the oppressor.

You find it funny because you don't understand either theory, apparently.

Hell, identity politics isn't even post-modernist. Identity politics presupposes a narrative that is built upon the pursuit and scaffolding of civil rights.

[JohnBrown1917]

Ok, so again, this is why we do not agree, and why I won't change your mind. You think everything is going fine. I do not. I think the issue is political polarization, you think its just Trump. We cannot debate if we disagree on the root level facts.

Are you new to human society? This is not a new thing, its not been getting worse.

Its better in some countries, relative to 50+ years ago, i'd say. No more pillar society in the Netherlands, The germans don't have the nazis and commies fighting each other on the streets anymore etc.

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They are in the US.

Just because you only got 2 big parties does not mean they have to represent both side of the political compass. I understand the confusion with how far right the republicans are, but that is not how it works.


Nearly every single American leftist i've spoken too also holds the same opinion of the dems, so cut the crap with "They are left here". I only see that from Republicans, anti-sjws and those not invested in politics.

[Gestopft]

No, the left should use a different tactic... not identity politics. They should use the same narrative that MLK did.

See, now there’s an idea. Aside from the caveat that all politics is “identity politics,” I’d basically agree- but I think people’s concern is that instead of trying to repair the ship you were on you suddenly abandoned ship and were next spotted firing cannonballs from the SS Peterson. At least that’s what it looks like to me.

Yes, the left has its issues- but I think there are productive and unproductive ways to address them

[szechuan]

Are you new to human society? This is not a new thing, its not been getting worse.

Its better in some countries, relative to 50+ years ago, i'd say. No more pillar society in the Netherlands, The germans don't have the nazis and commies fighting each other on the streets anymore etc.

Actually considering what has happened in the past, we live in a relatively peaceful time. Although Reactionary Politics has divided Americans as well as other countries more, that I can't Deny.

[Elegiac]

They are in the US.

As always, there's an xkcd comic for everything:



Also, weren't you done with this thread?

[Slybak]

It takes a village is a collective idea... equality is a collective idea.

"The West" is a collective idea.

Self-responsibility is usually a right leaning idea...

Self-responsibility for people hurt by right-wing policy is a right-wing idea. Collective action for people who benefit from right-wing policy is also a right-wing idea.

In and of itself neither the left or right are wrong. Society is important, but so is the individual in society. Both modes of thinking work best when there is a balance between them.

Society and individual are not mutually exclusive or oppositional notions. Individuals exist within and are shaped and constrained by a social framework that is, in turn, shaped by their individual psychologies. We are not the islands that Jordan Peterson wants you to believe we are.

Note he is not creating a power struggle as such, and this is not about who should or should not get rights based on traits. It is about people being equal in their humanity. That they are gay, or black, or white, etc, does not matter. His message is about unity, the left, currently is about division. It is categorizing people into groups, tribes, and then pitting that tribe against the "anti" of that tribe... so for instance LGBT rights against traditional/religious values, and the people that hold that dear. Instead of arguing that Christ, Buddha, etc, saw all human as equal, and using their own religion to show them why what they are doing is wrong.[/quote]

If you want to fight for a group of people do as MLK did:

Yes, I know the one speech that MLK gave that every right-winger partially cities to justify not caring about racism. If you want to understand King, try reading something more encompassing and substantial, like Where Do We Go From Here, the last book he published before he was murdered by a white supremacist. Or, just like, the entirety of his 1963 speech at the March for Jobs and Justice. Or stuff like this:



Why, it's almost as if King understood structural inequalities and wanted them addressed in a structural manner. And not paved over with, as he wrote in both the Letter from a Birmingham Jail and later reinforced in Where Do We Go From here, "loose and easy language about equality" deployed by the white moderate. In fact I'll do you a favor and cite the entire passage:

Loose and easy language about equality, resonant resolutions about brotherhood fall pleasantly on the ear, but for the Negro there is a credibility gap he cannot overlook. He remembers that with each modest advance the white population promptly raises the argument that the Negro has come for enough. Each step forward accents an ever-present tendency to backlash.

This characterization is necessarily broad and general. It would be grossly unfair to omit recognition of a minority of whites who genuinely want authentic equality. Their commitment is real, sincere, and is expressed in a thousand deeds. But they are balanced at the other end of the pole by the unregenerate segregationists who have declared that democracy is not worth having if it involves equality. The segregationist goal is the total reversal of all reforms, with reestablishment of naked oppression and if need be a native form of fascism. America had a master race in the antebellum South. Reestablishing it with a resurgent Klan and a totally disenfranchised lower class would realize the dream of too many extremists on the right.

The great majority of Americans are suspended between these opposing attitudes. They are uneasy with injustice but unwilling yet to pay a significant price to eradicate it.

The persistence of racism in depth and the dawning awareness that Negro demands will necessitate structural changes in society have generated a new phase of white resistance in North and South. Based on the cruel judgement that Negroes have come far enough, there is a strong mood to bring the civil rights movement to a halt or reduce it to a crawl. Negro demands that yesterday evoked admiration and support, today - to many - have become tiresome, unwarranted, and a disturbance to the enjoyment of life. Cries of Black Power and riots are not the causes of white resistance, they are the consequence of it.

Equality. Structural changes. Power struggles. Group dynamics.

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Again, no, you're wrong. For one, there's no fucking reference to marxism in that definition at all. Second, that is, again, not what postmodernism means. Third, dollars to doughnuts you're doing nothing but watching and reading shit like Peterson.

The main point of Foucault and the Poststructuralists is that all metanarratives - grand historical theories - are historically contingent; people believe them because there is some condition existing in their present moment that appears to validate them, but they are not true for all time. This itself is, ironically, its own kind of metanarrative that was historically constructed after the failed predictions of the Modernists (a category that includes Marx), but this still doesn't create some kind of philosophical adjacency with Marxism. Like... historical materialism is still a thing in 21st century Marxist thought, even if some contemporary Marxist philosophers think it needs to be "updated" in order to better make sense of events since the 19th century.

But, yes, Peterson is to political philosophy what Deepak Chopra is to quantum mechanics; someone who traffics in the jargon of an academic discipline, with no deeper understanding of it, in order to argue something he would believe regardless as to whether that discipline even existed or not. It's a sales pitch.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Trump is not going to be here in a few years, he is not a king. Google is a place of work. And they have some very SJW rules that are now being adopted by their HR department.

I do not need help... I take responsibility for my actions... I vote my conscious. Thank you for the concern though. And I hope you have a good day as well.

Trump is a symptom of a problem and that's the rights inability to vet a candidate and blame everything on liberals. President like Trump will continue to get elected. We thought it was over with bush but that wasn't true either.

They've had those polices before than and are now receiving push back for them they're also a companies and if they refuse to do what makes them competition they we'll fail. If they discriminated against conservatives or white males they'll get in trouble for it. There are checks and balances already in place.

[Slybak]

The notion that "the West," however you choose to define it, is under threat because a cabal of postmodern marxists (a laughable contradiction in terms to anyone who knows what those words mean) who exercise complete and despotic control over universities, corporate HR departments, and governmental offices is the most ludicrously alarmist bullshit in the world, and those who peddle it deserve to at least pay a social cost in the poorly concealed laughter of everyone who hears them say it.

To follow-up on this, I'll quote noted Intellectual Dark Web denizen and man consumed with dread about the fact that fanciful ideas like racist pseudoscience are being met with derision, Sam Harris. From his debate with Rabbi David Wolpe in 2007:

"Take, for example, the people who think Elvis is still alive. OK? What's wrong with this claim. I mean, why is this claim not vitiating our academic departments and corporations? I'll tell you why. It's very simple. We have not passed laws against believing that Elvis is still alive. The problem is that whenever somebody seriously represents his belief that Elvis is still alive - in a conversation, on a first date, at a lecture, at a job interview - he immediately pays a price. He pays a price in ill-concealed laughter. That is a good thing."

[PosPosPos]

I understand it. But our future comes out of the schools and educational system. Just because I do not like the path the democrats are on, does not mean I do not reluctantly vote for them when the other candidate is talking about electrocuting gay people...

Just because I criticizes the left and right does not mean I cannot see that one side is better on some issues. My issue with the left is that they are getting too extreme in their push for equality of outcome. It is becoming dogmatic/blind to reality.

The right/GOP, when they embraced the "moral majority", when they embraced the Tobacco industry, and the oil industry in spite of the science sold out reality/truth for monetary/political gain...

The left is now doing the same, they feel righteous indignation when people do not walk lock step with their message. They smear and lie to destroy people's reputations because they question their motives and actions.

I am not OK with that, and I will not support that. Just like I do not support the right being hypocrites.

You think you understand it, there's a difference here.

Whatever you are doing now is just to deflect from the inconvenient fact you are part of the problem, and not the solution.

[Thepersona]

*Alienation of labor intensifies*

Hey hey, i'm less of a leftist than i was a few years ago. Now i only see capitalism as a system that has to be kept with a tight leash, in order to benefit society at large

[Felya]

Whatever you are doing now is just to deflect from the inconvenient fact you are part of the problem, and not the solution.

The only truth is that he is right and everyone else is so wrong, he cannot deal with it. There is no other truth... removing your self from the conversation, is exactly part of the problem. If we actually listened to each other, instead of pundits profiteering on our crisis of confidence, there would be no need to leave the forum.

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That is what I find funny... they both play on each other when they should not. But there is a narrative... the narrative of the oppressed and the oppressor.

That literally has nothing to do with what I said. Power is oppressive to those who have less power. That is a fundamental truth to all living beings. It’s why we feel pain and emotions... it measures the power of your surroundings.

No, the left should use a different tactic... not identity politics. They should use the same narrative that MLK did.

MLK said to judge people based on their character, not on their cultural or tribal beliefs. You are misrepresenting MLK to an extreme...

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You find it funny because you don't understand either theory, apparently.

Hell, identity politics isn't even post-modernist. Identity politics presupposes a narrative that is built upon the pursuit and scaffolding of civil rights.

Every form of government is predicated on it... unless it’s utopian communism... which is ironic, considering how opposed to Marxism this ideology is supposed to be.

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You think you understand it, there's a difference here.

Whatever you are doing now is just to deflect from the inconvenient fact you are part of the problem, and not the solution.

It’s ridiculous... MLK asks for us to be treated based on our character, while @Connel’s influence points at a crustation mindlessly falling in line... regardless of character. For MLK, to be called a Nazi, would point to evaluation of the character that draws the comparison. To the crustation, that’s just an insult against a differen pod.

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The right is not about this. They just want immigration control, and not being told who they should, or should not provide services for. Some of that can be debated, discussed, or irioned out.

Which is unlike liberals, who are:

the left play's Identity politics, and collectivism (it takes a village)... the far left is just more militant about it.

Why the two different strokes? Why is you speaking for the right, so much less pejorative, than speaking for the left? These cannot be debated? Cannot be ironed out? Just run for the hills, the liberals are coming?

The far right that wants racial segregation, authoritarian government, should be pointed to the constitution, and debated. And if not, use the court system to go against their ideas.

Isn’t that what is happening here and you are running away? After telling people for pages about the intolerant left, it is you who is running away?

This is the disconnect... if the extreme left gets their way, the extreme right has a recourse. If the extreme rights gets their way, there is no fucking recourse, because they are authoritarian!

Again, I am just telling you what I am observing.

This is the real reason why American politics is so polarized, according to an expert
http://www.businessinsider.com/socio...olitics-2017-3

Polarization Deepens in American Politics
https://www.usnews.com/news/ken-wals...rican-politics

The Great Divide: Polarization in American Politics
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/t...ican-politics/

... and again... my issue is not with what you are observing in these articles, but based on your assertions for both the reason and solution.

[Muzjhath]

No, the left should use a different tactic... not identity politics. They should use the same narrative that MLK did.

What MLK did was Identity Politics.
His identity politics were very simple. "Racists are fucking bad. Along with "Skin colour shouldn't matter for equality".

Prove me wrong.

[Warning]

Connal remember when I said don't overdose on Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris? This is what I was afraid of. You seem to be in this tunnel vision mindset that the problems they point out are the major issues facing society today. They're not. Intersectionality and post modernism are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I've seen no signs of growing support for these fringe ideas that you think are taking over the world. Not once have I seen someone try to advance these ideas on this forum or on social media. I only see people everywhere mocking them and loads of conservatives warning people that THIS is biggest threat to us all. It is not. If you want to worry about something real worry about nuclear proliferation, Russian aggression or the growing power of a very authoritarian Chinese regime.

[Cthulhu 2020]

We got 4 far right parties in power in Europe... not a single far left one.

Gotta keep that boogeyman up.

I mean, it's working. The 20th century didn't make a very good case for leftist movements because the monarchies/aristocracies around the world saw Stalinism, Leninism, and other faux communist movements as easy demons to decry. And now we have people like @Connal and Theodarzna sinking their teeth in because the left is finally fighting back against the right's shills, and to them it's the LEFT's fault that society is being polarized... because they're finally saying "enough" and using the right's own dirty tactics against them.

Every single person on this forum who has ever taken issue with being called a nazi has, at some point or another, falsely labeled the left wing movement as communists.

The left has been playing nicely for decades. If Connal wishes to take a look at the last several decades of history of vilification of anything left by screaming "communist" at it and the subsequent shift rightward, he wouldn't be so quick to demonize the leftist movement. He's just gotten too embroiled with a woman who's married to a dude that swallowed the men's rights red pill and Trumperism.

[Deleted]

"The times, they are a changing"

Funny how history works in loops, isnt it?