So, uh... anyone defending Sylvanas anymore? (SPOILERS!!!)

[Deleted]

These void-whispers made me think about Sargeras's plan and what was shown about his means to end the void threat. Wipe out all life, in extension wiping out all possible futures and new threads of destiny. The void didn't seem too worried about that, because as we say even the demons can be turned to the void and they were using Sargeras's wars for their own ends secretly. But it seems they are not convinced they can do that when it comes to undeath. I mean, we have a quote that says '... and with strange aeons even death may die'. '...may die' This doesn't sound so sure, does it?
Then we have the tidbit about the Lich King in the latest chronicle and wanting to unite the world against the void (or at least, the 'bigger threats'), being of the opinion that a world united in undeath is the only way to accomplish this. However he was of the opinion that it was free will that has to be taken away. Which would explain why there would be no more possibilities, but one, which is what the Lich King orders.
This, however, is not how Sylvanas runs things. Even if you surmise that she enslaves (by force, not mind-control) or manipulates people, this does not rule out dissenters and possibilities.
So it's kind of strange that the voices react to Sylvanas this way, if we take them at face value. It makes more sense if we think about how they react to Alleria and her shock at seeing Sylvanas go Banshee mode, gripping her by her fear and disgust, so they can make her kill Sylvanas and start a war.

So... I'm not sure if the urgency of the voices in that moment is actually the void being afraid of Sylvanas or simply a more forceful try to manipulate Alleria based on her strong reaction to Sylvanas.
If you look at the Empire the Old Gods want on Azeroth, there's not free will or possibilities either. It's all about mind control and madness.

And one more thing: what if there's a way to turn Azeroth itself to undeath? Exchange the Spirit and Life aspects for Death and Decay. Maybe the Drust could help with that? ^^

[Mixxy]

And you are already spreading fake brilliance. As the part of the screenshot that I linked it for shows, contrary to your abject falsehoods, not all members of the Desolate Council were against resurrection. And even those against it merely held reservations about it. At the end of the screenshot we see Sylvanas reaction to that piece of information. As such, no, Sylvanas is not less than leased with the Desolate Council. She is shocked that some of them do not want to be immortal.

Shock? Yeah, sure.

She's literally screaming with anger over the revelation that they're against immortality, and possibly even reanimation in general.

You are once again lying about what you were already called out on lying about in the post you just quoted. She did not say they did not betray her. She said she cannot know for sure where their allegiances lie.

Literally the same thing, guy. "They didn't betray me" and "I don't know if they betrayed me".

Except as has already been pointed out to you the last time you tried to peddle this brilliance, Anduin does not think she broke her word. So, once again, try to figure out the context in which Sylvanas said the remark about humans.

Your reading comprehension could use some work. I said that REGARDLESS of what Anduin thinks (hint: he's very forgiving) the point is she still made a promise. A very specifically worded promise. And she broke it.

Given how the Gathering was a meeting between Forsaken and their human relatives, go figure out why she said that.

Because there are obviously going to be Alliance soldiers there, and the Alliance is made up of more than just humans. And, fuck me, humans breed with other races pretty darn frequently. There was absolutely no guarantee that there wouldn't be an elf or something there also meeting a family member.

Whoopty fucking doo, Sylvanas told a lie in a game about telling lies. And as far she is concerned, she may not consider that one to be the lie. As the authors said in an interview, she did not consider resurrecting Vereesa in War Crimes to be wrong either.

If Sylvanas does not consider raising her sister to be wrong, as per the authors, and instead a way out of what she considers to be sorrow filled lives, as per Sylvanas, yay for more baseless and patently wrong assertions.

First... it's not that she told the lie. It's that she contrived the situation DELIBERATELY in order to give away the fact that she was going to murder them. That's cartoon villain levels of bragging.

Second, just because Sylvanas thinks it's okay, that doesn't mean it is okay. Even children have a grasp on that.

And third, that's a crock. Sylvanas HERSELF has said on multiple occasions that undeath is a curse, that it's torturous. She even said in the Three Sisters comic that she sometimes wishes she was alive. Her, the Banshee Queen.

Yeah, not really. It paints your amazing narrative in an interesting light though.

Just keep repeating the word "narrative" friendo. Sure makes you look reasonable and willing to consider other points of view. And boy howdy it sure does a good job of proving me wrong.

Void cannot twist and control undead. We knew that since WotLK. It is beyond obvious they would not like them.

Yup. But the authors decided that these whispers were the most relevant. That the stuff about Sylvanas was worth shining a spotlight on.
Jeeze, you wouldn't know foreshadowing if gave you a reacharound.

I actually think this is one of the more baffling claims that have come up recently.

Let's assume that the Void is directly talking to Alleria - which is most likely not the case-, the whispers are not just a manifestation of her infected subconscious but a direct message and, for that matter, somewhat true.

To get from this point to "... therefore Sylvanas is evil, even the void confirms it!" requires some serious stretching.

The Void has been our and the Legion's enemy since Blizzard decided to make it up. Any good or acceptable outcome for the Void means horrible consequences for everyone on Azeroth and to some extend the entire universe. If the Void sees Sylvanas as the true enemy that means that she is clearly on the right path and anyone who opposes her is in the wrong. This includes, no surprise here, the entirety of the Alliance. If you want to take the whispers as gospel, and we really should not do that, than the Alliance is evil, because it somehow helps the Void in accomplishing its goals.

I mean I did say that the Void lies and you can't really take it at face value.

As Locus Walker says, even at its best the Void still only offers half-truths. It's just interesting to look at what those half-truths could be.

[Mehrunes]

Shock? Yeah, sure.

She's literally screaming with anger over the revelation that they're against immortality, and possibly even reanimation in general.

Do not address the rest some more.

Literally the same thing, guy. "They didn't betray me" and "I don't know if they betrayed me".

Your reading comprehension could use some work.

Your reading comprehension could use some work. I said that REGARDLESS of what Anduin thinks (hint: he's very forgiving) the point is she still made a promise. A very specifically worded promise. And she broke it.

When diving in a lake of bullshit, one is bound to miss snippets here and there as they swim back up for air. Anyway, given how he is the one she gave that promise to, you've got squat here. If the person on the receiving end of Sylvanas promise does not consider it broken, it was nor broken, no matter how much you grace this forum with your mental gymnastics.

Because there are obviously going to be Alliance soldiers there, and the Alliance is made up of more than just humans. And, fuck me, humans breed with other races pretty darn frequently. There was absolutely no guarantee that there wouldn't be an elf or something there also meeting a family member.

Anduin said in his letter that if either side attacks the other, it will be considered as a justification for a military reaction. Sylvanas agreed to his terms. Anduin still did nothing when Sylvanas shot Calia down. Even your less forgiving Alliance members back in Stromgarde did not react despite orders to attack if Sylvanas attacks the other side. Could it be that your narrative holds no water...

First... it's not that she told the lie. It's that she contrived the situation DELIBERATELY in order to give away the fact that she was going to murder them. That's cartoon villain levels of bragging.

Second, just because Sylvanas thinks it's okay, that doesn't mean it is okay. Even children have a grasp on that.

Did I say it makes it OK? I cannot recall that. The point was that if Sylvanas does not consider it wrong, she likely did not consider it to be the lie.

And third, that's a crock. Sylvanas HERSELF has said on multiple occasions that undeath is a curse, that it's torturous. She even said in the Three Sisters comic that she sometimes wishes she was alive. Her, the Banshee Queen.

When was the last time she said that? Her on click audio from Vanilla, which itself is from WC3. In Cata she said the Val'kyr and their necromancy to be the future of the Forsaken. It is almost as if characters changed over time.

Just keep repeating the word "narrative" friendo. Sure makes you look reasonable and willing to consider other points of view. And boy howdy it sure does a good job of proving me wrong.

I am willing to consider other points of view. I am not willing to consider 1. abject lies about the source material, 2. headcanon and 3. an argument so fluid that whenever you can no longer maintain an element of it you change your tune on the fly.

Yup. But the authors decided that these whispers were the most relevant. That the stuff about Sylvanas was worth shining a spotlight on.
Jeeze, you wouldn't know foreshadowing if gave you a reacharound.

You brought up unreliable narration in context of Sylvanas' inner thoughts yet now that it is convenient for you let us forget all that jazz and treat whispers of the Void made to break Alleria as great foreshadowing. All the while being completely oblivious to the possibility that if this is foreshadowing, it may very well foreshadow Sylvanas' role against the Void and combine it with Vol'jin's reasons for choosing her as his successor.

[Mixxy]

You brought up unreliable narration in context of Sylvanas' inner thoughts yet now that it is convenient for you let us forget all that jazz and treat whispers of the Void made to break Alleria as great foreshadowing. All the while being completely oblivious to the possibility that if this is foreshadowing, it may very well foreshadow Sylvanas' role against the Void and combine it with Vol'jin's reasons for choosing her as his successor.

Gee it's fucking almost as if I literally said that you can't take the Void's whispers as gospel because it lies and tells "half-truths" and just thought it an interesting point to look at.

Have you ever taken any sort of comprehensive reading classes? You can't just look at what the author is writing... you also have to think about why.

- - - Updated - - -

When diving in a lake of bullshit, one is bound to miss snippets here and there as they swim back up for air. Anyway, given how he is the one she gave that promise to, you've got squat here. If the person on the receiving end of Sylvanas promise does not consider it broken, it was nor broken, no matter how much you grace this forum with your mental gymnastics.

That's not really how promises work but okay. Also "mental gymnastics"? I mean I guess it's a step up from just repeating the word "narrative" over and over...

Your reading comprehension could use some work.

The point is that Sylvanas herself acknowledges that she doesn't know whether or not most of the dead deserved to be executed.
Unless you think a moment of hesitation is grounds for execution. In which case... you should probably never hold a position of power. Ever.

[ZenTaurus]

That's not really how promises work but okay. Also "mental gymnastics"? I mean I guess it's a step up from just repeating the word "narrative" over and over...

The promise was always referring to humans that were there to meet their families.
It did not extend to Calia that came there secretly (unknown to Anduin as well) just to stir shit up.

Both Anduin and Sylvanas are aware of this. Please stop.

[Vynestra]

I'd -love- to have a breakdown of this vote into alliance, horde, male, female.

It would be interesting to see who is voting for what.

[Mehrunes]

Gee it's fucking almost as if I literally said that you can't take the Void's whispers as gospel because it lies and tells "half-truths" and just thought it an interesting point to look at.

If by an interesting point you mean bending over backwards to twist some more anti Sylvanas bullshit, sure.

Have you ever taken any sort of comprehensive reading classes? You can't just look at what the author is writing... you also have to think about why.

Given how you repeatedly made statements about the book that are outright false, spare me your brilliant remarks about comprehensive reading because you are throwing thermonuclear weapons in glasshouses right now.

That's not really how promises work but okay. Also "mental gymnastics"? I mean I guess it's a step up from just repeating the word "narrative" over and over...

Yeah, no. Read Anduins letter. And who it talked about when Anduin said an attack against that group would be met with a reprisal from the Alliance. If you cannot do that, leave and stop spreading fake nonsense. Fanfiction.net is that way >>>

The point is that Sylvanas herself acknowledges that she doesn't know whether or not most of the dead deserved to be executed.

The point is that Sylvanas acknowledges the Forsaken that started to return only after the Dark Rangers started their attack cannot be trusted.

Unless you think a moment of hesitation is grounds for execution. In which case... you should probably never hold a position of power. Ever.

Risking getting a fifth column back into Undercity in light of a defection to a usurper backed by the Alliance sure would be fun.

[Vyah]

I am hoping she will have a redeeming story arc. We know that undead are seemingly resistant to Old Gods and the void considering the scourge weren't affected in Northrend and built their Empire essentially with the blood of an Old God.

So my hope is they have an arc where Sylvanas, since she is representing death, becomes an unexpected hero against the Old Gods/Void.

But then we have Calia being undead and infused with light over there messing things up, so I don't know.

[vipers]

yea but.. sylvans is not evil. Blizzard said so. There are many sides to the story... bad appels on both sides... This story is more nuances... they said so

does not mean that she can't change on the road

[Deleted]

does not mean that she can't change on the road

yea. There are lots of room for charcter devolpment. She have not at all crossed Lines that can not be retracted. Yeea. She have shown great traits to which she cares for All living and even her own people.(let me just take the sarcasmen off for just a minute. Even Garrosh had more respect for members of the Horde, he atleast cared for 3 them, he liked orcs, trolls and taurens.. sylvanas Only cares for forsaken, and appently, she only cares for them who blindly obeys her, and even those who followeres orders can be shot down, because she does not want them to tell the tale about how she kills people who would pick the alliance over her.. For love of Elune. SYLVANAS MOTTO IS "in the end they will all serve me in death" )

[delus]

The promise was always referring to humans that were there to meet their families.
It did not extend to Calia that came there secretly (unknown to Anduin as well) just to stir shit up.

Both Anduin and Sylvanas are aware of this. Please stop.

She didn't say she wouldn't harm humans at the meeting, she said she wouldn't harm any members of the Alliance.

[Powerogue]

While she's clearly crossed the line and I'm totally with Anduin on that, "the new garrosh" is hardly accurate. She's far smarter than Garrosh and knows to keep the Horde together and on her side. She's merely willing to go to lengths varying from underhanded to outright abhorrent to do so.

I don't see the Horde having nearly the forces possible for an outright Siege of Orgrimmar coup, so much as them politely standing aside at the sight of a not-so-friendly alliance rogue.

Grizzle talks under his breath.
Grizzle Gearslip says: Yeah, we'll see who's got Garrosh's back when it counts.
Malkorok says: What was that, goblin?
Grizzle Gearslip says: Oh yeah, hey no nothing your, uh, your hugeness. Uh, for the Horde, and all that... Bye!

Except that argument goes nowhere...[29 pages of arguing omitted]

29 Blooming pages. And I thought I was obsessed over the lore. Are people really this up in arms over the actions of a fictional character?

I'd participate in this discussion but it seems like I'd have to devote a full time job slot to it.

[Deleted]

For one that is repeatedly told to love her people, she sure ain't picky about killing them.

It was insane how shallow Golden made Sylvanas. Basically she is just a "Only people I enslave as the undead can be trusted, and only those undead that think and do what I like to the letter". Sometimes I think only Nathanos fits the description in the end. Everyone else is utterly expendable to her.

I had hoped Vol'jin had chosen her because Sylvanas would actually grow, slowly becoming warchief material for all of the horde, finding new sides to herself she did not know existed. She did not have to become some sort of holy saint, but the Sylvanas in the Before the Storm is a sad travesty.

[Ashnazg]

I see people constantly allude to Anduin not knowing Calia was going to be present at the meeting. Is there any support for that in the book?

The book clearly states that Calia was present at Arathi Highlands keep, and had to be garbed in a cloak to avoid recognition by the people. Additionally, Anduin was present at the gates when the human family members + Faol + Calia departed and he even remarks to the tune of "this" being as much Faol + Calia's moment as the families'.

[mickybrighteyes]

I see people constantly allude to Anduin not knowing Calia was going to be present at the meeting. Is there any support for that in the book?

>.> the book has Anduin ALLOWING her to be there and only really talking to Faol about his thoughts on her presence. The only thing Anduin doesn't know is that Calia decided to try and rally forsaken defectors (apparently she didn't think to do so till she was out there on the field)

[Mixxy]

So now that some more of the pre-events are on the PTR and we see that Sylvanas' reason for attacking the Night Elves is literally "I wanna have all of Kalimdor. Because I want all the Azerite. The Night Elves won't like it. We should kill Malfurion right now, before they know any of this is going on." I just don't see how people can keep defending her.

She openly and proudly declares that she wants to invade the capital city, and murder the beloved spiritual and political leader, of a people who don't even know they're at war yet... purely because she wants ALL the Azerite - a resource that the Horde already had a huge majority control of.

[Super Dickmann]

Taking this thread as a source, Sylvanas has a pretty respectable 50/50 approval rating.

Sylvanas 2018. "Around the dead, you better watch your head". Four more expansions.

[Magnagarde]

Taking this thread as a source, Sylvanas has a pretty respectable 50/50 approval rating.

Orgrimmar News Network BREAKING NEWS

Forsaken journalist, who was best known for criticizing Sylvanas' leadership in the Undead Daily, got shot dead outside the Auction House. The Dreadguard are doing their best to catch the perpetrator. Chief Nathanos Blightcaller has said he'll do everything in his power to bring the responsible to justice.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

I am hoping she will have a redeeming story arc. We know that undead are seemingly resistant to Old Gods and the void considering the scourge weren't affected in Northrend and built their Empire essentially with the blood of an Old God.

So my hope is they have an arc where Sylvanas, since she is representing death, becomes an unexpected hero against the Old Gods/Void.

But then we have Calia being undead and infused with light over there messing things up, so I don't know.

ssooo….you want ANOTHER illidan? they should just have greymane kill her lol and be done with it

[Haven]

Orgrimmar News Network BREAKING NEWS

Forsaken journalist, who was best known for criticizing Sylvanas' leadership in the Undead Daily, got shot dead outside the Auction House. The Dreadguard are doing their best to catch the perpetrator. Chief Nathanos Blightcaller has said he'll do everything in his power to bring the responsible to justice.

Orgrimmar News Network, bringing you truth and freedom*
*sponsored by Lightforged totally not fanatics