How can they legitimately push the void v light as equally evil?

[Sorrior]

It's not the Light itself that will become a villain (in the same way that it is not the cosmic force of the Void that is the villain, it's the Void Lords and the Old Gods). If the Light becomes a villain in game, it will be represented by characters like X'era or AU Yrel. People in Azeroth actually are quite balanced between the Light and the Void after all. Heck even the Lightforged that were all essentially handpicked by X'era still stood down and did not try to strike Illidan down because they could understand such balance and they seem OK fighting next to Void elves. Which is the meaning of this type of struggle in most fiction where you encounter it; balance between Void and Light is what is most desirable and WE (the champions in Azeroth) are unique in seeking such a balance.

I am now wondering if this balamce might not be one reason Azeroth is such a powerful titan soul. Part light part void part arcane. It is like the Ichigo Kurosaki of titans a bit of everything.

[Gaidax]

I thought about this a bit more - and people are overthinking it - if Blizz wants it can do Evil or Conflicting Light anytime, we got this Xera thing out of nowhere and now Lightbound. Heck you have things like Hyrja/Eyir too, who used Light against us, because Sylvanas did boo-boo.

If they would want to make Naaru or Light as enemies, they would do it in a jiffy. Anything from radical/fanatical faction and to outright forceful cleansing of the world master plan by Naaru.

[Deleted]

They pretty much did a 180 with the light, especially with the Naaru, The Naaru were pretty much focused on their legion thing, we have Shattrath city where not everyone cared about the light, but hey they got to live there.

It wasn't a 180, it was a Babylon 5. The Vorlons also were divided between "good" Vorlons and "forceful" Vorlon.

[Jademist]

but then that just strips away the identity of both. Both are just forces takes away any meaning from them. Instead of philosophy its just poor animeish writing.

It is not poor animeish writing. There not being an absolute good or evil between the light and the void makes it more interesting than the generic "well darkness is obviously bad and light is obviously good" tropes.

[Deleted]

Even with Blizzard pushing the light and void as not inherently good or evil, the light is still objectively more beneficial to the mortal races of Azeroth. It's been established from the very beginning that void is the antithesis of life, maybe not sapience in the case of the void lords but mortal life. Life itself was birthed from the Light after all, it's directly stated in Chronicle.

So while void is not objectively evil, it's objectively anti-life, which might as well be evil.

Life was created from the clash of both Light and Void.

[Trassk]

pretty simple actually. Light and Void are not evil, their just fundamental forces and part of the universe. Just like how light and darkness is in the real world, the light of day is a nice thing, but looking at the sun to long will blind you, darkness keeps the earth from being baked by the sun, but if darkness was eternal nothing would grow. they work in balance.

In warcraft just like the elemental planes that were governed by the elemental lords, it doesn't change the aspect of those forces just because the one wielding them goes nuts and decides they want to burn the world or drown it, because just like when we killed Ragnaros and al'akir, it didn't make the elements of air and fire disappear, simply meant it didn't have a lord governing it.
The same goes for the narru and void lords, they are just representatives of light and darkness, but if you get rid of them the two forces would still exist, just without something to govern it.

So, if the narru goes evil and uses light in an evil way, then snuffing out the narru doesn't mean light is now an evil source, its just the ones using it are. Likewise you can have users of the void do so for good intentions.

[Aeula]

They should have made the Lightforged more evil, having them do sneaky things like forced conversions, it seems they're doing that with the WoD Draenei instead. Personally I think continuing that is the best rout for them.

Later on they can have it where the Blood Elves realize that M'uru's sacrifice wasn't as benevolent as it first seemed. Maybe something along the lines of it slowly lightforging them and trying to control them. Then we can ditch the Sunwell and go back to the old-school style of Blood Knight with Liadrin leading the charge against the Light.

[Techno-Druid]

Life was created from the clash of both Light and Void.

The first life form to emerge in the Great Dark Beyond were the elementals. One of the most basic and primordial life forms, they were created when shards of fractured Light thrown in the physical universe hit planets and infused them with the spark of life. As such, they can be found on nearly every planet that houses life.

When light and void clash, fel and arcane form, one being the physical embodiment of chaos while the other it the embodiment of order.

- - - Updated - - -

They should have made the Lightforged more evil, having them do sneaky things like forced conversions, it seems they're doing that with the WoD Draenei instead. Personally I think continuing that is the best rout for them.

I don't think Lightforged should be evil, but definitely more forceful with their beliefs. I really hate when every antagonistic storylines boils down to mustache-twirling villians.

I would really like to see a clash between the Lightforged and void elves, considering to the former's eyes they're basically harnessing the most anti-life force in the cosmos.

[Skeletov]

I don't care what you saw in Legion because there was zero instances where the Naaru were even hinted at being anything other then space boy scouts prior to when the new team took over.

It's more like the writers are shoving their ideology down our throat in the most hamfisted way possible all for the sake acting pretentious. Regardless of whether or not the previous narrative fits with their current ideas.

[mickybrighteyes]

I don't care what you saw in Legion because there was zero instances where the Naaru were even hinted at being anything other then space boy scouts prior to when the new team took over.

It's more like the writers are shoving their ideology down our throat in the most hamfisted way possible all for the sake acting pretentious. Regardless of whether or not the previous narrative fits with their current ideas.

>.> I wouldn't say zero since they also showed fallen Naaru in the same expansion that introduced them.

They also only introduced us to less than 10 Naaru at first and talked like there were others out there. So yeah Naaru were almost treated as gods or beings above elemental lords. Overall I think they were a story everyone just sort of looked at, saw it not mattering for most of the game outside of Shattrath events and Draenei which was also left untouched for years.

[Alixie]

They shouldnt have tried to push Light as the best thing ever from the beggining, that was their mistake. Too late now.

They've always had evil paladins and evil light wielders before. Scarlet Crusade the and Blood Knights. Arthas, and that one idiot from the Cathedral who joined Deathwing.

HOWEVER...they're just capitalizing on the anti-religion sentiment from Illidan fanboys, and turning the Light into a lazy allegory for Evangelical Christianity.

[Rhlor]

light>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>void
the light tries to create a theocratic dictatorship, but in return creates an advanced civilization where there is no sickness or hunger, where people live peacefully and their lives lengthen thousands of years

void drives people crazy and mutates them into horrible killer monsters. madness death and destruction that brings the void

[mickybrighteyes]

HOWEVER...they're just capitalizing on the anti-religion sentiment from Illidan fanboys, and turning the Light into a lazy allegory for Evangelical Christianity.

I mean... the Light is what the religion of the human nation has been. It's been that way from the get go with the obvious priests talking about confession and telling you how to live. This is not new and is in fact older than some of teh kids playing these days in terms of the lore. It aint 'turning' into this... it's been that way since inception.

complete with 'devils' being the true evil in the universe we must opposed (but they got nerfed to being henchmen and retconned to being another rank and file demon in the legion).

[bufferunderrun]

Alright so I haven't been subbed since cata, but I've kept up with the lore over the years.

I honestly am puzzled by this sudden push Blizz is doing by trying to paint the light as evil as the void. You will hear people talk about how the voids about free will, freedom, while the light is about obedience.... yet we never see examples of the void being about these things. The races created by the old gods, are servants to the old gods, they have no option. They were created specifically to obey the old gods. We have cultists who go through insane ramblings and murder sprees because whispers told them to... and I am supposed to believe the voids about "multiple paths" and "free will"? Alleria has been voided for like a few months lore wise and there are a few elves, and this is the example of free will? We have one etheral who is fully voided out whose not a full on nutjob and thats the example of freedom?

They pretty much did a 180 with the light, especially with the Naaru, The Naaru were pretty much focused on their legion thing, we have Shattrath city where not everyone cared about the light, but hey they got to live there.

We are also supposed to listen to a dagger and take everything she says as absolute fact? Is the priest dagger not just doing what is probably has done to other wielders of it before? Drive them mad? Lie?

Its really not that compelling. Its comparable to writing a story where you have a character, they help you save an orphanage, but later they get into a car and start running over the orphans.

umh have you seen diablo 3 story? Hyperion is pretty much the example of someone so dedicated to the light that end up hating everything isn't blessed by it, mortals included.

As mortals are the mix of all the kind of energies, can chose willingly to use/submit/enslave one, they are hated by nearly every creature that was born for those energies, in the end is not the energy itself who is "evil" but the creature it spawn that are unwilling to accept mortals.

Blizzard is pushing the age of mortals who can freely choose what energy they affiliated with or use and will fight any zealous creature who think we should submit, we will fight Naaru if they become pushy like the one with illidan, we will fight the void lord and the old gods because they wanna wipe us all, we have fought the legion and given a good beaten to some titan construct who called us corrupted like algalon.

One day we will be forced to even fight nature and death (as i think the LK wasn't the true herald of death but the shadowlands will come for sure).

[Ersula]

The Lightbound follow the Naaru. They're pushing the Naaru as evil, not the light. The Light & Void have no ideology, you poor, simple fools.

[Alixie]

The Light is also the religion of interdimensional immortal space goats. There must be some things that are consistent people from different time lines and planets worship the same thing.


I was implying that the recent changes of evil Narru and Yrel's inquisition are lazy attempts and retcons to make the Light "morally grey" and an evil counterpart to the Void. Not that Light users and worshippers are evil, but the actual force is as evil as the Void.

[mickybrighteyes]

The Light is also the religion of interdimensional immortal space goats.

it's not the same idea though.

draenei followed their prophet, found the Naaru and took up their belief through what has basically been shown as a physical manifestation of Light energy.

Humans had a bastardization of a few real world religious ideas thrown together and called "The Light".

A small issue due to lack of attention to story really and just sweeping everyone under a similar idea. In reality, there should be as great a difference between Draenei religious views and the humans as there is between them and Tauren, who while they use the light... it's a different belief system through the earth mother by which they come to this concept of the light.

[PhilUK]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, no matter how you justify actions.

[Nerovar]

But is the void about individualism? I mean people seem to say it is, but.... do we really have examples of this? We have examples of mass control by the void

Why do you assume that radical individualism excludes the enslavement of others?

[Psychotrip]

Why do you assume that radical individualism excludes the enslavement of others?

It's just weird for many to accept that this force that, even as recently as Chronicle, has always been portrayed as something that only seeks to torture, devour, and ultimately destroy the entire universe is now being portrayed as a force concerned with philosophical notions of "freedom", "survival of the fittest" and "individualism".

It feels a lot less nihilistic and Lovecraftian and more like a brooding "edgy" teenager trying to wrestle with ideas of moral relativity without a deep understanding of how to make that compelling within a fantasy world.

There's already a ton of good examples of moral relativity within the World Of warcraft that blizzard has either "redeemed" or outright retconned. It just feels weird to take the two things in the universe that have been portrayed as the only "real" forces of "good" and "evil" within the universe (though there's always some exceptions that prove the rule) and transforming it into yet another "equally valid opposing forces" trope that we see in so many other fantasy worlds.

Absolute moral relativity is just as boring as making everything black and white.