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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    This is another issue. Most people propose for them to exchange dual wielding with 2H so it would not give an extra spec to balance.

    You’re right that it is Blizzards game, but we are the customers who finance the developement of this game and as customers I think it is not only fair but also important to be critical when the product we pay for lack quality.

    In the end they will as you say decide the class fantasy, but it should still make sense in relation to what they are communicating. If they tell us the customers, that a frost death knight should be this slow jauggernaut it make sense because it is basicly a frozen knight but then it doesnt make sense to have this crazy high attack speed. The content lacks quality. And it is okay to care about quality.

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    You describe Blizzard as if it is this small upcoming company with very limited ressources. If we dont speak up when the quality lack they will just use less and less ressources because they can. Blizzard could easily hire another 1000 people without coming close to “blowing their ressources”. Blizzard did approximately 7.000.000.000 $ in revenue last year and even though it is not only from WoW I still think they could up the quality a little.
    Any enterprise works the same doenst matter how big it is, they have a bigger budget sure, they could hire more ppl with that budget, sure, but saying just to hire as many ppl as possible just for one sector thats working fine is just nonsense, no enterprise wants to spend money unnecessarily.

    Also your paying fee only gives you the right to play their game, not to demand anything. You can expect quality for what youre paying, sure, maybe leave your opinion about something you dont agree with about the game, but if youre not happy with what is being delivered you can always unsub. Thats how economic system works.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-06-14 at 04:44 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Any enterprise works the same doenst matter how big it is, they have a bigger budget sure, they could hire more ppl with that budget, sure, but saying just to hire as many ppl as possible just for one sector thats working fine is just nonsense.
    But that doesn't mean we can't speak up if they are delivering a bad product. It also has a lot to say what industry the enterprise is in. As I mentioned before, the player base of WoW are financing the developement of the game, so I only think it is fair we have something to say about the quality we get for our money. If we start just accepting them doing us wrong it will only escalate and get worse and worse. Look at Microsoft products before Apple really came into the market. They were starting to get sooooo bad because there really was no alternative but when Apple really came into the game with the newer mac books and iphones, then Microsoft suddenly started to up their products.

    We need to be vocal even though Blizzard says no, or else we will never achieve anything.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    You are grasping at straws.. like, is your class fantasy to have some kind of muscle atrophy in your legs and some super high dexterity and highspeed upper body movement, in full-plate no less? Sure buddy.

    Feel yourself called out on your bullshit. And now keep your whinging about these things to the other thread about two handed frost.
    Its the dual wielding spec, if you think about it using 2 small swords would make you hit faster, which in the whole context is total bullshit as you say, because uh hits just as fast with a 2h. Why, you ask? Because its a fucking game. Also by your logic warriors shouldnt be leaping thru the air in full plate.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-06-14 at 04:40 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Because its a fucking game.
    If this is how you feel, I don't know why you're wasting your time on a forum writing about it...

    I don't enjoy spending time on this forum, but I really want 2H so I do it. But if I had no goal I would just stay away and enjoy my time with something else.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But that doesn't mean we can't speak up if they are delivering a bad product. It also has a lot to say what industry the enterprise is in. As I mentioned before, the player base of WoW are financing the developement of the game, so I only think it is fair we have something to say about the quality we get for our money. If we start just accepting them doing us wrong it will only escalate and get worse and worse. Look at Microsoft products before Apple really came into the market. They were starting to get sooooo bad because there really was no alternative but when Apple really came into the game with the newer mac books and iphones, then Microsoft suddenly started to up their products.

    We need to be vocal even though Blizzard says no, or else we will never achieve anything.
    As i said if you think its a bad product you dont have to buy it, ppl may disagree with you and think they are delivering and buy it, or most ppl can agree with you and dont buy it, then theyre not gonna have any profit or less profit then they were expecting, forcing them to improve the next time.
    And we are not financing anything, their profits finance that, we are just buying the rights to play the game when it comes out.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-06-14 at 05:06 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    As i said if you think its a bad product you dont have to buy it, ppl may disagree with you and think they are delivering and buy it, or most ppl can agree with you and dont buy it, then theyre not gonna have any profit or less profit then they were expecting, forcing them to improve the next time.
    And we are not financing anything we are just buying the rights to play the game when it comes out.
    No I'm paying a subscription every month which is going to the development of more content. I'm in my right to complain about a product I buy. Also Blizzard are asking for feedback. My feedback is: "Most people want 2H frost over dual wielding frost... can you please change it".

    I don't know what your goal here is. Why are you telling us we are not allowed to complain over a product we buy and why do you care?

  7. #207
    No I'm paying a subscription every month which is going to the development of more content. I'm in my right to complain about a product I buy. Also Blizzard are asking for feedback. My feedback is: "Most people want 2H frost over dual wielding frost... can you please change it".

    I don't know what your goal here is. Why are you telling us we are not allowed to complain over a product we buy and why do you care?
    I already said that your subscription only allows you to play their game not demand anything from them. Its like going on a restaurant and demand being called by the waiter your majesty, and demand that they make you something thats not on the menu, you can ask for it they are not obligated to do it just because you are paying for it. Its expected that they deliver a good service and good manners to you, but nothing further than that, if you dont like what its being delivered you give them a bad reviewn and dont come back.

    You can complain as much as you want its yout life and time, but dont be disapointed when they dont give a fuck for not paying any attention to you.

    Also thats more like you opinion than actual feedback, "i liked 2hand better, change it back". And its pretty stated that 2 hand is not coming back.
    A real feedback would be X talent does not interact well with Y ability, change it.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-06-15 at 04:55 AM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    You are grasping at straws.. like, is your class fantasy to have some kind of muscle atrophy in your legs and some super high dexterity and highspeed upper body movement, in full-plate no less? Sure buddy.

    Feel yourself called out on your bullshit. And now keep your whinging about these things to the other thread about two handed frost.
    Step 1: Has Blizzard talked about Frost as a slow moving juggernaut? Yes, check.

    Step 2: Has Blizzard said Frost is a slow attack-speed being. No.

    Step 3: Prepare forearm for spectacular grasp at straws.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No I'm paying a subscription every month which is going to the development of more content. I'm in my right to complain about a product I buy. Also Blizzard are asking for feedback. My feedback is: "Most people want 2H frost over dual wielding frost... can you please change it".

    I don't know what your goal here is. Why are you telling us we are not allowed to complain over a product we buy and why do you care?
    Just cause you're paying for it doesn't mean Blizzard needs to change it...You don't own your characters, Blizzard does...You pay them for the right to use their servers and the characters on their servers. You can complain, but that doesn't mean anything will change....End of the day it's Blizzards game and they will do what they want.
    Rune - Came back from the death
    Cameltotem officially retired from enhance

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by RuneDK View Post
    Just cause you're paying for it doesn't mean Blizzard needs to change it...You don't own your characters, Blizzard does...You pay them for the right to use their servers and the characters on their servers. You can complain, but that doesn't mean anything will change....End of the day it's Blizzards game and they will do what they want.
    Why are you telling me this? I never said I had the right to demand anything. I said it was fair for us to complain. I don’t understand the incentive behind your comment...

    And again.. Blizzard are asking for feedback, so I don’t even know why we are discussing this.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2018-06-15 at 04:13 AM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No I'm paying a subscription every month which is going to the development of more content. I'm in my right to complain about a product I buy. Also Blizzard are asking for feedback. My feedback is: "Most people want 2H frost over dual wielding frost... can you please change it".
    MOST people wanting 2H frost is a gross exaggeration. Only the vocal minority bring up things to "fix" on everyone's behalf. People that enjoy dual wield frost don't often create forum posts raving about how much they enjoy it.

    I, myself, prefer 1h weapons on melee classes. But, I also understand that in Blizzard's opinion their vision of the class fantasy for Unholy means a 2H weapon. Oh well. What they believe represents THEIR vision of the class' fantasy and what I believe represent's mine are different. Demanding change based on your assumptions isn't constructive. Even a supposed compromise, for example an aesthetic one in relaxing transmog rules essentially runs contrary to how they view the spec differences. However, I can see them going that route eventually instead of catering to the small % of players that post about ways the way the spec itself to change.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Why are you telling me this? I never said I had the right to demand anything. I said it was fair for us to complain. I don’t understand the incentive behind your comment...

    And again.. Blizzard are asking for feedback, so I don’t even know why we are discussing this.
    Feedback is there to improve the game. "Most people want 2H frost over dual wielding frost... can you please change it" is an opinion like Kendros said. And that "most ppl" want it is just an assumption imo. Maybe one day Blizz will feel to bring it back, but i dont see the matter to push this so hard. But i like both weapon options, DW maybe abit more

  13. #213
    I enjoy the fact that it is a 2x 1H spec. Makes it feel a little different. Unholy gives us a 2H spec which is fine. The last thing we really need is a 2H and 1H version of a spec. otherwise we'd end up in the Cata? warrior situation with Titans grip and Single Minded Fury and 9 million hours of theory crafting around whats better, and at which point does 2x 1H's outperform a 2H of differing ilvls.

    Again - just an opinion, but for me, i'll take my 3 unique specs and stay with that. Its fun to pick a class, not a spec to play in wow, knowing you can play all 2/3/4 differently.

  14. #214


    Here was the original concept for the DKs. Lacking the 2H option for frost feels like it's strayed away from the core concept

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayiicha View Post
    Step 1: Has Blizzard talked about Frost as a slow moving juggernaut? Yes, check.

    Step 2: Has Blizzard said Frost is a slow attack-speed being. No.
    Disclaimer : mostly arguing for the state of arguing, as Blizzard is unlikely to bring back 2H.

    A slow-moving juggernaut with a very fast attack speed just feels weird to me. In most games/movies/comics/whatever, fast-moving characters attack fast and slow-moving characters compensate with slower, more powerful attacks. And yeah, sure, there will be some counterexamples, but my point is that they're few and far between.

    As a side-note, the official wow website only says this for Frost DK : "An icy harbinger of doom, channeling runic power and delivering vicious weapon strikes."

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Teech View Post
    Feedback is there to improve the game. "Most people want 2H frost over dual wielding frost... can you please change it" is an opinion like Kendros said. And that "most ppl" want it is just an assumption imo. Maybe one day Blizz will feel to bring it back, but i dont see the matter to push this so hard. But i like both weapon options, DW maybe abit more
    It was an example. Feedback is in most cases opinions. Like: “I believe this boss is overtuned”. It is fair to voice opinions. I don’t understand why we are discussing which type of feedback we are allowed to give.

    My feedback: “Dear Blizzard. You are very focused on class fantasy when designing the classes of the game which is great! However, with Frost Death Knights it doesn’t seem like you’re following your own original ideas about how this class should be when you’re giving them 2 one-hand weapons instead of 1 two-hand weapon. I hope you will consider this point in relation to class fantasy.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayiicha View Post
    Step 1: Has Blizzard talked about Frost as a slow moving juggernaut? Yes, check.

    Step 2: Has Blizzard said Frost is a slow attack-speed being. No.
    True but that combination just feels wierd. I don’t think it was the vision when they created the Death Knight.

    For example, a talent called Icy Talons which increases Attack Speed doesnt make sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post


    Here was the original concept for the DKs. Lacking the 2H option for frost feels like it's strayed away from the core concept
    This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Last edited by Kaver; 2018-06-15 at 06:13 AM.

  17. #217
    I do agree that the class fantasy for frost is a 2-hander. Arthas as the Lich King is the epitome of class fantasy, there are few classes/specs that have such a known icon that does not correspond to how the spec plays. Sure, Arthas isn't a 100% frost death knight, I guess he uses classic talent trees.

    With that said, as long as the spec plays well and does well I don't really care either way.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by szandos View Post
    With that said, as long as the spec plays well and does well I don't really care either way.
    Agreed. If all we have to complain about is the lack of a 2H option for frost, it means we're in a pretty good spot.
    At least mechanics-wise, it looks pretty solid, we'll see about the numbers in a couple months.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    MOST people wanting 2H frost is a gross exaggeration. Only the vocal minority bring up things to "fix" on everyone's behalf. People that enjoy dual wield frost don't often create forum posts raving about how much they enjoy it.
    I thank you on behalf of the "silent but happy" frost DKs who actually enjoy the DW class fantasy.
    Last edited by incko; 2018-06-15 at 09:34 AM.

  20. #220
    I just want to be able to chose to sheath weapons on the back vs. hips. For some reason weapons on the hips swing back and forth like my character is on a fashion catwalk. It looks feminine and ridiculous.

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