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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Huskar000 View Post
    Yeah but that's your copied char who has legendaries, tier sets, antorus gear. 120 it's different and from what i've heard it's slow like you have under 10% haste even with full haste gear.
    I leveled my DK 110-120 as blood, no issues. Once at 120, I haven't had any issues with tanking content that I can attribute to my class, rather than the lack of gear. There's a few places where you get your shit pushed in, but that's common across all tank classes.

    Its different from live - yes, for example you can forget about ever using bonestorm, since you'll basically never be in a place where you can safely pool 100 RP to use it for max duration. However, the issues with RP generation aren't critical for your ability to tank. You do find yourself dry on resources in challenging fights, but that's expected from brand new content. You can tank M+2 and M+3 basically right out of the gate, after getting a couple of heroic pieces.

  2. #22
    Blood is the pretty much the same as on live.
    Shittons of self healing with ability to spec for more into self healing.
    Grip and massgrip are still one of the best utilities for m+ and crazy useful is certain situation in raiding environment.
    Nothing new.

  3. #23
    Elemental Lord Contender Saverem's Avatar
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    They are actually still very good. Remember, EVERY OTHER TANK ALSO GOT NERFED.

    I'd still put BDKs at the top for M+. The only difference is the current VDH is also very good as well and might give BDKs competition now thanks to their better utility for M+.


    We are still in the process of numbers tuning, but from what I can see as it stands. BDK/VDH are top tier followed by Prot Pallies, then Druids and Monks and Wars are still bringing it up the rear.
    Last edited by Contender Saverem; 2018-07-02 at 08:01 PM.
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
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  4. #24
    How would people rate Blood for Raids?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    How would people rate Blood for Raids?
    Same as they are now. All tanks are viable in raiding, high end DH's, DK's, BrMs are top 3. and the rest are barely below them.

  6. #26
    I feel good about BDK and tanks. You gotta remember, the numbers mean A LOT more for tanks in terms of "feeling" than your actual kit does, a lot of tanks have been described as boring to play anyway, with exception of DH.

    Once the numbers are tuned, Warrior will feel better.
    I mean, the difference of feel between a 15% Deathstrike and a 50% Deathstrike is giant and will alter how you play and that's just a number pass, has nothing to do with the mechanic of Deathstrike.

    People are saying BDK feels slow and sometimes you stand there auto swingings, but you gotta remember we're baseline tankier now, we scale better out of the gate with Strength and we have more movement speed options now. The more gear upgrades you get, the less you will need to fight for RP, the more freedom you will have to use Deathstrike less, the less you will be stuck auto swinging.
    It wasn't like this in Legion. In Legion you had to wait for them to update the traits in a content update to scale to the next tier. It might've been the worst design they've introduced in terms of scaling. The scaling was so bad, if you got into an auto swing situation, you probably would die. The fact that you can even get into an auto swing plateau and not die is saying a lot.

  7. #27
    DK always feels slow (=a lot of free GCDs) at the start of an new Expansion because unlike some of the other tanks BDK does not have a filler spell.
    During Alpha (DS = 45 RP all the time) it was really annoying how slow the spec felt, esp. in Dungones with multiple Mobs most of the time you had to spent all your runes to keep Boneshield up. Losing the Mouth of Hell and Rattling Bones traits was very noticeable.
    Luckily they changed Ossuary back to reducing the RP Cost of DS to 40. As always with better gear the slow Feeling will be gone. Overall DK seems fine, Utility is still great.
    Last edited by Schlars; 2018-07-04 at 09:56 AM.

  8. #28
    What do you guys think of the blood talents? The 90 tier seems like a no-brainer. Voracious (15% leech for 6sec on DS) looks pretty damn good in comparison to other options. Mark of Blood even got nerfed from the live version according to the tooltips I'm seeing, did anyone even pick this before in Legion? Then we have Bloodworms and their history of being the literal definition of 'sucks', could they finally be any good now?

    Edit: Wrong spell name..
    Last edited by Nayami; 2018-07-16 at 09:31 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nayami View Post
    What do you guys think of the blood talents? The 90 tier seems like a no-brainer. Voracious (15% leech for 6sec on DS) looks pretty damn good in comparison to other options. Rune Tap even got nerfed from the live version according to the tooltips I'm seeing, did anyone even pick this before in Legion? Then we have Bloodworms and their history of being the literal definition of 'sucks', could they finally be any good now?
    First row I think a lot of beta testers pick rune strike to fill the gaps in the rotation you'll inevitably have due to low haste and low rune regen. But I'd hate to lose blood drinker, it's very useful for grabbing aggro on ranged mobs when your grip is on cd (stuff like big adds on aggramar for example).

    Next row I expect hemostasis for single target (leggo shoulder) and consumption for dungeons (no OP group leech tho).

    Tombstone - no clue if anyone ever used it for anything. Foul bulwark got nerfed, but so did Ossuary I reckon.

    Rune tap was taken in Legion usually with deathlord ring leggo, used for specific soak shit bosses: maiden / fallen avatar / KJ in TOS, and varimathras / argus in Antorus. And that's what it's good for, you have to mitigate a timed boss hit or swirly on the ground. For general purpose it was never a go to pick because it costs you a rune and doesn't last very long.

    Voracious indeed looks like a winner, since Mark of Blood has runic power cost. And the leech from voracious should be really good in any aoe scenario. Bloodworms the way they're worded... 15% missing health but insta pop when you drop below 50%? So 7.5% hp heal at best? And 5 procs per minute means on average every 12 seconds? I'm not expecting much, but if someone mathed it out I'd be grateful.

    And no idea why they put red thirst on last row, and not make it swap with will of the necropolis (making that row about 3 different cds) or even swap with with tombstone as decision between red thirst / ossuary / foul bulwark would make more sense. On last row I can't see myself ever picking it, it's either bonestorm for mass aoe or purgatory for stuff that can actually kill me. Especially since RP gen is slower and VB lost much of its power with the removal of artifact traits, red thirst doesn't sound as strong as in Legion.

  10. #30
    First time I'm actually looking at the new tree. Looks pretty awful. There's a clear "5 man build" and then there's a clear "raid build". The choices seem even more narrow now.

    Runestrike looks like ass. I know a lot of testers are picking it and whatever and it has throwback appeal, but I'm not ditching Blood Drinker for that, especially not with how Bdrinker will scale with Voracious.
    Hemo looks like it would be better for AOE than consumption will according to the wording "for each enemy hit", wtf? I would literally never pick Consumption, even Rapid Decomp is better paired with Voracious.
    Foul Bulwark in the same row as Tombstone kills synergy (retard move). Nothing in that row competes with Ossuary whatsoever (GJ Blizz, exact same situation as last time), at least until the first raid tier and you can actually use Tombstone. Tombstone might be useful later on when you actually have health and charges to spend.
    Row 60 is the most interesting row, imo, especially with that buffed AMS talent, that baby is going to be so sweet. But again, you really have zero choice here: it's WotN when the game launches and you do your first dungeons, then it's AMB the moment you get gear. Runetap will probably remain niche, but I could be wrong on that because I don't know what any of the encounters look like, mandatory or niche depending on encounter designs? Runetap is also extremely good for PVP, so that is something else to consider for that row.
    Tightening Grasp. Enough said. (WW for PVP)
    One word: Voracious. It's bread and butter. They should just remove the other two talents before launch. No one will pick them. In fact, the last 3 rows are a straight up noob trap.
    Row 100 can be summed up with "rest in peace Bonestorm". Outside of raid I will always have Purgatory picked and inside of a raid I will always have Red Thirst picked, with Purgatory for progression. I also plan on picking Rapid Decomp because it scales well with Voracious (once again.), Bonestorm is even less of a necessity after that. But again, hard to tell how useful Bonestorm will be at first without knowing the PVE content!!

    Conclusion: Looks like I'll never need to respec. That's how narrow the tree is. Simply switch out Rapid Decomp (if you even pick it, most people probably won't even need to switch this, less choice) for one of the other 2 before Mythic+ and that's it, MAYBE Bonestorm if it's Lower Kara tier AND MAYBE Runetap if it's like KJ 2.0, uber whammy hit combo Cenarius man.
    That's great design, Blizzard, bravo!!!!!! (I do not see this tree going live in it's current state.)

    Edit: Soulgorge went live, nevermind. This tree will probably go live.
    Last edited by msdos; 2018-07-09 at 03:34 PM.

  11. #31
    I'm not seeing much choice either. Maybe we'll see some changes when number tuning comes by but I'm not expecting much when we're close to pre-patch. Anti-Magic Barrier is actually the talent I'm most hyped about lol, it's the good old AMS we had before it got nerfed.

    There's also pretty much no synergy between these talent options. Maybe Foul Bulwark to increase your max health and Mark of Blood / Bonestorm cause they scale with max health? Not much to go on unfortunately.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    One word: Voracious. It's bread and butter. They should just remove the other two talents before launch. No one will pick them. In fact, the last 3 rows are a straight up noob trap.
    Did you test abilities, or just "look at the tree"? Actually, worms now do a decent amount of damage and healing, and they are current default choice now

  13. #33
    Bloodworms are the default choice? I leveled my blood dk from 110-120 and never even considered this talent because it's tooltip is so lackluster tbh. Maybe i give it a try this evening.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by porubezhnik View Post
    Did you test abilities, or just "look at the tree"? Actually, worms now do a decent amount of damage and healing, and they are current default choice now
    Healing from Bloodworms is the same than on live Servers, 15% of missing HP. Damage from Bloodworms was bugged in Alpha / Early Beta and got fixed already.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlars View Post
    Healing from Bloodworms is the same than on live Servers, 15% of missing HP. Damage from Bloodworms was bugged in Alpha / Early Beta and got fixed already.
    10 mins ago, from Ji'arak. Bonestorm included, plenty of small adds.
    Damage: https://prnt.sc/k4of1j
    Healing: https://prnt.sc/k4oeqj

    Dummy in Acherus:
    Damage: https://prnt.sc/k4oimt
    Healing: https://prnt.sc/k4oj1w

    As I am not sure about 100% uptime of Voracious with current haste levels, and, consequently, not sure in always 15% buffed DS - worms is an option now.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by porubezhnik View Post
    Did you test abilities, or just "look at the tree"? Actually, worms now do a decent amount of damage and healing, and they are current default choice now
    Someone just asked what I thought about the tree, it's not my fault I didn't get a Beta invite, otherwise, yeah, I would have tested it out for myself.

    So if worms are an option, then they are an option, it's not like my analysis is concrete and it's not like that bothers me. I'll use them if they're an option, I don't really care, that's great news if it's true. But default option? So then you're reinforcing for me that there is even less choice??? Lololol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by porubezhnik View Post
    10 mins ago, from Ji'arak. Bonestorm included, plenty of small adds.
    Damage: https://prnt.sc/k4of1j
    Healing: https://prnt.sc/k4oeqj

    Dummy in Acherus:
    Damage: https://prnt.sc/k4oimt
    Healing: https://prnt.sc/k4oj1w

    As I am not sure about 100% uptime of Voracious with current haste levels, and, consequently, not sure in always 15% buffed DS - worms is an option now.
    The healing looks decent, but the damage part is unclear, would've been nice if it wasn't in Russian and if the Worm icon was the same for damage as it is healing. Is that top icon just auto attacks doing all that damage? Everything can look good on it's own, it's when it's put up against crap adjacent to it where the scrutiny comes in.
    Last edited by msdos; 2018-07-10 at 11:22 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    The healing looks decent, but the damage part is unclear, would've been nice if it wasn't in Russian and if the Worm icon was the same for damage as it is healing. Is that top icon just auto attacks doing all that damage? Everything can look good on it's own, it's when it's put up against crap adjacent to it where the scrutiny comes in.
    Looks to me like it's auto attack that's on the top in the first damage list, which is making a return in BfA with all the reduced coefficients on abilities.

    The second thing that looks like auto attack again is probably pet auto attack.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    The healing looks decent, but the damage part is unclear, would've been nice if it wasn't in Russian and if the Worm icon was the same for damage as it is healing. Is that top icon just auto attacks doing all that damage? Everything can look good on it's own, it's when it's put up against crap adjacent to it where the scrutiny comes in.
    Hero autos still broken in BFA (one month to release, ye) - its true, my autos is my top impact on ST
    Worms do like 5% on dummy, but anyway it is damage. When we are not under 50% hp - it will be more, as worms will live for theirs full duration.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    First row I think a lot of beta testers pick rune strike to fill the gaps in the rotation you'll inevitably have due to low haste and low rune regen. But I'd hate to lose blood drinker, it's very useful for grabbing aggro on ranged mobs when your grip is on cd (stuff like big adds on aggramar for example).

    ...

    Tombstone - no clue if anyone ever used it for anything. Foul bulwark got nerfed, but so did Ossuary I reckon.

    ...

    Voracious indeed looks like a winner, since Mark of Blood has runic power cost. And the leech from voracious should be really good in any aoe scenario. Bloodworms the way they're worded... 15% missing health but insta pop when you drop below 50%? So 7.5% hp heal at best? And 5 procs per minute means on average every 12 seconds? I'm not expecting much, but if someone mathed it out I'd be grateful.
    My BFA spredsheet is still under construction, but I do have some information I can share.

    1. The first row may be more competitive than it first appears:

    -Blooddrinker is still the best single target dps talent, but both its' base damage and healing are only about ~8% of your max health on beta as opposed to ~20% of your max health on live, so its' healing strength is a lot lower.

    -Rune Strike, on the other hand, may overtake Blooddrinker on damage with enough extra targets and haste, since it gives you extra Heart Strikes that can cleave (which also give you extra runic power for some extra Death Strikes).

    -Heartbreaker, since Blooddrinker is in a much weaker place, may be worth reevaluating, especially for M+. I don't expect it to be best for damage in any situation, but it may end up providing the most survivability.

    2. Ossuary lost its' 5 Runic Power reduction, but then they gave it back, so it will most likely dominate the row, since Death Strike cost reduction is generally really, really good for survivability, with some extra single target dps thrown in.

    3. Since I couldn't find anyone else who did so, I tested and did some math on Bloodworms.

    -They last for up to 15 seconds with a base attack interval of 1.5 seconds, but their first attack happens almost instantly, so, with only a little bit of haste, they'll land 11 attacks during their life as opposed to 10 (I have not personally tested them at 0% haste, but I am under the impression that they won't immediately be able to land 11 attacks over their life).

    -With no haste, you'll spawn a worm every ~10.6195 seconds, after accounting for the proc-based bad luck protection.

    -Using my character on beta with somewhat mediocre gear, each bloodworm will do ~2727 average damage, while a Heart Strike does an average of ~1218 damage a swing (on a single target)

    -Assuming they don't die early, at all, they increase my dps by about 300, while using Blooddrinker on cooldown increases it by around 430.

    -The bloodworm heal doesn't appear to be affected by versatility and I was either unlucky in my sampling or it is unable to crit.

    -if you're already below 50% health when they spawn or if you instantaneously drop significantly below 50%, they'll heal you based off of your current health; so, they can heal for more than 7.5% of your health if they are automatically triggered.

    At the very least, it's a dps talent with no dps competition on the row. I'm going to need to collect more data and develop my model a little more before saying anything definitive about Voracious vs. Bloodworms from a survival aspect, since I don't know, offhand, what a good assumption is for average player hp when they pop.

    All the same, it's very possible that Bloodworms end up being the best survivability talent for at least the start of the expansion; 15% leech doesn't actually result in a whole lot of healing given the current dps of Blood DKs. However, Voracity scales a lot better with gear than Bloodworms, since Voracity double dips on haste and Bloodworms doesn't get anything from critical strike or versatility.
    Last edited by Faradin; 2018-07-13 at 12:46 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Faradin View Post
    Voracity double dips on haste and Bloodworms doesn't get anything from critical strike or versatility.
    Bloodworms attacks can crit, at least. And if they can, they probably should also be affected by versatility.

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