While we are on the topic, what are your thoughts on Mythic+ in Legion?

[Wyrt]

In BfA,with the tier items gone,I really am getting a feeling,that raiding will be superior gear wise only due to the trinkets.

I hope. I hated having my best trinkets come from mythic+ for most of Legion. Especially since every tier you want to go back and run that shit again for higher ilvl...

[digichi]

Great addition to the game.

My 2 cents is that skittish/necrotic affixes don't really provide any engaging changes to the dungeon that the rest of the affixes do. I'm keen on seeing whether BfA swaps out any affixes for others or if they're just added on to the list.

[Thrif]

I've always been a big fan of scaling encounters where you yourself get to decide how difficult you want to play it, because you can always hit that sweet spot of very difficult yet doable, which is where games are the most fun. It worked very well for the Rifts in Diablo, and it works pretty well in WoW, well enough to be one of the best additions in a long time anyway.

That said, there are some issues they can adress but it's a fundamentally great addition.

[CameronChase21]

amazing feature

[Feanoro]

Best part of Legion.

[Tarkam]

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Speed running dungeons is boring.

Make them more challenging where you have to use CC and stuff. Not AoE spamfests and seeing how many packs your tank can handle at a time.

The dungeons can become difficult enough that you cannot pull large groups and meticulously but slowly have to move through the dungeon while making very few mistakes. The M+ system scales far beyond what level is possible to complete.

It is however unlikely that you will reach these levels due to failing your key even once downgrades it meaning you cannot practice that specific dungeon at that certain level. If they are to "make" the dungeons more difficult to the point that you cannot chain pull large groups and bosses become monstrous they have to add a mechanic that allows practice of the keys you have.

[HuxNeva]

Most fun thing added to the game in ages.

Engaging and challenging 5 man content, scaling so it brings fun to anyone regardless of skill level.

The only drawback is that it is pretty void of rewards. Either relax the cap on bases ilvl or up the TF proc rates. As they are you will have to run hundreds before ever seeing an upgrade piece.

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Part of me did resent M+ for most of the expansion though. M+ offers very high ilvl gear with very low time investment and a boatload of AP and other reward. As someone who prefers raiding to all other activities being "forced" to run a weekly max key dungeon was irritating. It felt like a chore rather than a fun activity. Rather than pushing keys on my main or doing 10 keys one week and none the week after, I had to focus on doing one max key per toon per week and then ensuring all of my raiders got keystones done as well.

That is all about the 'weekly chest' thing, not M+. They should lose the chest as it adds nothing to gameplay, and is an outlier in the reward/effort for most. Get rid of the weekly chest and up end of instance rewards.

[Akka]

I despise it.
I already hated the heroic/normal difficulty levels in WotLK, even more the ridiculous FOUR different difficulty levels in raids (seriously, WTF ?). M+ is just an infinite amount of difficulty levels. Fuck you, I want to have one version.

Also, rush-based design is bad design.

[Cathbadh]

Most fun thing added to the game in ages.

Engaging and challenging 5 man content, scaling so it brings fun to anyone regardless of skill level.

The only drawback is that it is pretty void of rewards. Either relax the cap on bases ilvl or up the TF proc rates. As they are you will have to run hundreds before ever seeing an upgrade piece.

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That is all about the 'weekly chest' thing, not M+. They should lose the chest as it adds nothing to gameplay, and is an outlier in the reward/effort for most. Get rid of the weekly chest and up end of instance rewards.

I think that'd be a reasonable compromise.

[Feida]

As I eluded to in the OP, I'm personally not a fan of the system in it's current state. I can respect it for what it is, but I don't think it should be lumped together with other types of PvE content. Relaxed progression-based content VS rushed time-attack content, it feels weird that these 2 different styles of gameplay share the same reward pool. I don't want to do something I dislike in order to optimize for the thing I do like, although I know this is just wishful thinking in general.

If the time factor was simply an alternative underlying function, and not the incentive, I think I would like the system much more. If beating the clock were to reward you with something, it shouldn't be gear IMO. Cosmetics, achievements, mounts, transmog-sets, bragging rights... these should be the type of rewards concerning the time factor.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Amazing feature with enormous potential going forward.

I think that it's a good idea preventing players from farming the shit out of M+ in BfA for AP.

[gioderpington]

It's great considering they didn't design the dungeons with affixes in mind. Kinda reminded me of co-op starcraft. Great once you get variety going, horrid if you only have one toon to play and like 3 dungeons you can do with certain affixes at high level.

Would like a variety of 10+ affixes besides fort/tyrannical.
Would like to see a variety of time versus skill mechanics involved. How fast and efficiently can you pull and down VS how efficiently can you CC and avoid. Like instead of a timer one week you get set respawn points; bosses and trash are 10x mechanically more difficult, but you get better rewards.

Only problem I came across by the end was people refusing to do certain dungeons with certain affixs for being "hard". Ya, tyrannical grievous cathedral is hard... that's the point??? But this is a people issue, blizzard can't fix that... yet.
I think the only other other kinda problem I had over the year and a half was the timing on some dungeons felt to short and some to long. Like wardens was a +2 even on 5-6 wipes, eye was a 0 on one wipe near the end thanks to the 3 minute run back. I wonder why they never improved the quality of life by playing with the timers and respawn points.

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The dungeons can become difficult enough that you cannot pull large groups and meticulously but slowly have to move through the dungeon while making very few mistakes. The M+ system scales far beyond what level is possible to complete.

It is however unlikely that you will reach these levels due to failing your key even once downgrades it meaning you cannot practice that specific dungeon at that certain level. If they are to "make" the dungeons more difficult to the point that you cannot chain pull large groups and bosses become monstrous they have to add a mechanic that allows practice of the keys you have.

Unfortunately even at 28+ CC is rarely used. You can watch some of Method's videos. It's all about stuns and interrupts, switching gear sets rapidly, and strong burst aoe. But this is also probably due to Bliz giving nearly every spec a mass stun/interrupt while having to spec into CC's like repentance... Like why bother CCing the 250 mil health trash when you can kill it within 10 seconds of stun and 1 tank/healer cd?

[TheVaryag]

Considering the thread on Blizz's forums is tailored for "feedback", I thought I would make a thread on this platform for the purpose of discussion. ^{or ranting}

Here are my thoughts

What are your thoughts on Legion's "best" feature?

The worst feature put Into WoW so far.

It promotes what's been happening In raids for a while, lots of boosting just like raids are having.

It gives you the Illusion of progress by giving you gear each higher number of Mythic + you do, why does Blizzard keep trying to give us MORE progression? Why not just say A + B + C Is the progression you do on this char and then fin. Move onto an alt. Doing this would promote having alts, trying out the game with new classes which also lets you learn more about the game and It's mechanics, spells and abilities. But no, Instead you HAVE to keep progressing on the ONE char until eternity's end for some bloody reason that Is just bonkers to me and as a design Idea Is completely and utterly flawed.

It's basically a re-worked Challenge Run system from WoD, but instead of doing It a few times to get a cosmetic, you now do It a million times over and over again for gear. Really, I liked the WoD system cause you could just -do- It a few times, get a neat little reward and that's It, Instead of making you go do It a few hundred times and make you think you're doing the same progress gear wise as a Mythic raider. What I -dont -like about the system, that and the Legion one Is that It's basically a timed run. I hate anything Ingame that has a timer and rushes you, I'm not playing Wipeout, why am I rushed to do this dungeons? Kinda defeats the point even making dungeons beautiful and large.

Mythic + and It's structure will now let the devs become lazy, you'd be running a dungeon and realize the dungeon has no ceiling cause players wouldn't bother looking up while they're running a timed dungeon and constantly looking forward and spamming AoE Damage/Heal/Taunt abilities over and over again like mindless machines. It's bad enough dungeons are easy these days and have been at It's best only during TBC and arguably even Cataclysm despite the rest of the expansion being shite. But ofc I doubt they'd take the difficulty of TBC dungeons and Implement It today, because what they've taught players the last few expansinos Is that you can blaze through a dungeon with no problems and no brain thought required. Boss tactics, what's that? Moving away from a big obvious frontal cone attack shown by a large visual aid on the ground + the guy raising his weapon up In the air for a century, long enough for you to notice and evade It? Is that the difficulty In dungeons nowadays?

And on a last note kinda tying Into what I wrote above, you won't even notice how beautifully designed dungeons are, well actually you definitely won't since they won't even bother designing them beautifully at all, since they'll essentially make dungeons Into gauntlets (Just like they confirmed for BfA, dungeons will be designed with Mythic+ In mind) where you just run forward. You don't go exploring Into side rooms, finding rare loot or even hints of lore about this mysterious dungeon you've just entered.

Yes I'm an old person at this point remembering how good Vanilla TBC and Wrath was (Or at least some aspects of It) but there was a beauty to the largeness of Vanilla dungeons and the difficulty of the TBC ones, add some exploration with mini bosses or even puzzles to solve together perhaps... combine all that today you'd have amazing dungeons.

[PaladinBash]

It sounded cooler when it was a matter of having CC, taking your time and other shit. All it is is a brief chore every week where you zerg a 15 with whoever is on. Could it be more than that? Sure but people would bitch it was mandatory. If 20s gave 985 gear, I'd do 20s instead and just zerg those. It doesn't really matter.

In the end, it's a simple little feature that's been giving me shitty gear 90% of the time and 10% of the time makes me glad I did it. For the amount of effort, it's perfectly fine.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

M+ is a good feature. It has given me meaningful PVE content to do outside of raids. Good rewards and the affix system makes it feel different week to week. Over all I REALLY REALLY like M+.

But...

1. Speedrunning does get old.
2. It certainly has breed a massive carry community.
3. Some affix combo's just aren't fun.
4. I worry that becuase they will design all 5 mans in the future with M+ in mind a lot of the magic of them will be lost.

Now...

I feel #3 is at least being WORKED on. I cannot make promises about how it will turn out but they are looking. Number 1 and 4 is just going to be how it is and I have started to accept it.. at least for the most part.

Number 2 worries me becuase if I log in right now I can see about 10+ groups in the finder that are all carry groups. The more popular this feature becomes the more and more of these will clog up the whole system. The people good enough to take advantage of it will. More people will get good enough and take advantage. Eventually no one will really be pugging things because you can get 200k gold for a 15 key or something if you got a couple of your buddies.

[thilicen]

Without a doubt one of the better features of legion and a great feature going forward.

[Aeula]

Don't like it. Don't like how they're balancing the game around the esports it spawned.

I hate dungeons in general.

[Doffen]

Best thing they've ever done in this game. Absolutely love it!

[Santoryu]

It was great until it was ruined.
If they'd bring back depleted keys and therefore possibility to practice higher keys the feature would be usable, right now it's not enjoyable because you end up in endless RNG lottery when your key downgrades.

Grinding low level keys or deliberately failing high keys until you get to same dungeon again is really stupid and it's really hard to make meaningless, planned progression with your team. It's like most Legion features completely ruined by random bullshit.

I understand they do this "because of pugs" - and that's another part of the problem, Blizzard is constantly shitting on guilds and communities and designing their systems based on "putting a bunch of random strangers togehter" - they simply don't understand communities or social MMO play - at all.

Yep, they fail to understand what the fundamentals of an MMORPG are.

Garbage systems for casual.

Seeing as the system offers replayability with increases in difficulty it's actually a great thing for casual players. But it's garbage for bad players. Don't confuse the two.

I despise it.
I already hated the heroic/normal difficulty levels in WotLK, even more the ridiculous FOUR different difficulty levels in raids (seriously, WTF ?). M+ is just an infinite amount of difficulty levels. Fuck you, I want to have one version.

Also, rush-based design is bad design.

The more difficulty levels there are, the more people can participate in the content. That is a great thing. The problem with only one difficulty level is that it can't cater to players of different skill and just ends up being nerfed. The problem with two difficulty levels is that one is too easy, while the other is too hard, for most players.

There is no argument to be made that fewer difficulty levels are better than more.

[Alkizon]

There is no argument to be made that fewer difficulty levels are better than more.

Participation in content is one of main stimulus for education/development/growth, but it's just simply taken away. This has the same problems as looking-for-x and scaling... but I already said that on 1st page.

1 key or 22 key who cares, they already have "I was there". It relaxes, dulls and calms (makes less active) - kills desire and motivation for action.
(funny: do you know about what sometimes psychologists saying in almost same words? )

I have zero clue what you're trying to say.

About many lvl-difficulties, it demotivates, but not encourage progress, nothing encourages you to be better, and it can still be somehow good, if it's really "complicated", but when it's like this *points at M+* it's stupidity - you can't have much "real complicated" lvl-s (even 3 already too much, but if they aren't complicated and finished... here is many people growth ends and boredom and routine begins).

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So... now I'll rephrase/correct what you said:
The more people skilled enough to participate in hard content and so allowed/engaged and (now attention!) interested/in need with it, the more people you can choose to play at end game stuff.
...but, well, they don't, because they get everything much easier (not just any material, but also including "knowledge" "involvement" "pleasure" "satisfaction" "curiosity"). Without this, everything is simply dead (it's already after 1-2 levels, because this is the moment when most of the above are already received), and this is why multiplicity of levels complexity doesn't make sense for this particular game.

This is their new audience that "dictates" own needs to developers. And they are happy, it's not require much brain cells, money and work.

And you know that problem what you described is being solved in another way, and this way <is>/<was> already present in the game. Dungeon design on principle of "the further/deeper/higher(depends on content direction), the more difficult" - and no levels of complexity are needed. But it's really necessary to do it, a lot of work, mechanics, balance, scenery, design. Why, if audience eats happily this synthetics, even asks for more.

I would look at general reaction when it'll start been really useful for example at 20+ keys, and rest will be just for experience, for "rehearsal", without reward. They will howl! Because they are already used to freebies. Well, since feeder will be taken away, so really useful meaningful actions will be required. But don't worry, they won't do it, who will pay them for the game then? would buy pets? cosmetics and mounts from the store?

Again: just lazy design, nothing more.

Multiple difficulty levels are very much game design. A higher difficulty allows you access to better rewards, how is that not design?

It's design of course (semantically), anything is design, but it's wrong and corrupted design. Because "higher difficulty allows you access to better rewards" abusing content of low difficulty, it's just not new content, so it's not rewards everything that should. And by the way in the end it doesn't allows, dungeon loot doesn't really changes with "more difficulty", you just getting more of it as I can understand, so why try to break through next and next and next, again and again and again... wall with your head, when you get almost the same for less labor and without much work => becomes dull and boring, uninteresting, becomes routine, becomes just a means, like a bored drug, not encourage your progress with new impressions (same but on a little another rules). Man, it's obviously lazy design.

Which are the arguments that fewer difficulty modes are better than more?

Rhetorical question: was there 20+ difficulties in Ulduar and did hard mode give much more then just achivment? or "forged" stuff? how long did Ulduar's passage last? And now the same questions for M+

And, by the way, "hardness" there was at least conditioned by objective reasons (I'm talking about "difficulty" factors, about story, your role in what is happening), and not by system's random selection from their standard set for any dungeon.

I think that words "several" and "many" have different semantic meanings. So, 2 is fair enough, many isn't. Try to think up 20 different difficulty justifications (triggers, traps, etc.) for these stupid short 10 minute dungeons, and for each dungeon/encounter separately. Oh, you can't? or may be just lazy? But system is boring without this and lack of immersion. Come back when you'll have it and we'll talk.

Conclusion: Ulduar's hard-system exploiting "repetitive" content is ideologically acceptable, moreover, it's not comparable with this (don't even try), they have completely different design, so this in no way justify M+

Also:

About how make some content relevant more fair, without rules violation.

My main conclusion from 1st page is still actual.