Retribution Paladin Need the same treatment as Fury / Arms Warrior

[nyc81991]

Doesn't seem like you ever planned to be constructive, just another hate thread.

You could just... I don't know play a Fury Warrior? All your problems solved right?

Ret on BFA is solid and as it stands on beta they can beat Fury Warriors 1-1. Number tuning hasnt begun yet so we don't really know how things will end up.

Ret is not fine on Beta. It's a pruned / watered down version of Legion which is not interesting or fun. Numbers on Beta and duels mean nothing. It's about engagement and the core of the spec and on beta it is lacking in many areas. Mobility, Rotation Downtime, removal of a significant number of traits / passives, many talent tree tiers need changes.

No one should be alright with a worse version of Legion. As a Retribution main since early TBC, it's sad playing BFA Beta.

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And Greater Judgement.
And Divine Tempest, which I will dearly miss.
and free trinket.
And prolonged Wings.
Not to mention autobubble.
Etc etc I could go on but I hope you get the point.


1. I will definitely pick BoW instead of HoW - it is better to have an additional proc for the 80% of the fight than an additional button for 25% of the fight.
2. Increased cd on all rotational abilities, dull baseline rotation with no procs or anything to pay attention to. Being slow. So very fething slow. I can not overemphazise how slow Ret feels with Steed nerf.
3. Ret? Easy? Have you ever heard of Havoc? Arcane? BM?

Agreed. I don't think some people even play Ret seriously that are saying it's good on Beta (much less, "better than Legion"...)

[Alvarado]

How about removing holy power and giving us back 3.0 ret?

[Nfinitii]

And Greater Judgement.
And Divine Tempest, which I will dearly miss.
and free trinket.
And prolonged Wings.
Not to mention autobubble.
Etc etc I could go on but I hope you get the point.


1. I will definitely pick BoW instead of HoW - it is better to have an additional proc for the 80% of the fight than an additional button for 25% of the fight.
2. Increased cd on all rotational abilities, dull baseline rotation with no procs or anything to pay attention to. Being slow. So very fething slow. I can not overemphazise how slow Ret feels with Steed nerf.
3. Ret? Easy? Have you ever heard of Havoc? Arcane? BM?

Almost every class is losing most if not all their artifact traits. U get used to not having the artifact traits after awhile and it's not that big of deal. I'm not really a fan of auto bubble, so it won't be missed. Besides it sounds like u want a more engaging playstyle so I would have thought u wouldn't want auto bubble. I don't like ret being so heavily tied to wings so I'm fine w/ prolonged wings leaving. That's y I don't like HoW coming back the way it is, I'd rather c something more like sudden death tbh. I don't like auto trinket either, yes it sucks to lose and maybe this should be a point we could make to blizzard to buff our mobility.

Baseline ret rotation on live is dull also, that's no difference. I play w/ bow, conc and divine purpose on bfa and it feels solid. I do wish BoW or divine purpose was baseline to make the baseline spec more interesting, as well as make aoe more interesting other than a different finisher. But the talents do make the spec more interesting and it's not like ur going to play any class w/o their talents.

I agree ret mobility is terrible in legion, and honestly it blows my mind that they nerfed steed when I thought they should reduce its cd not increase. I'd rather them replace steed tbh. But it's not like their mobility is anything to write home about before. the nerf barely means anything w/ how bad steed is to begin w/.

[Kalisandra]

The only thing u really lose is wake of ashes baseline. But they removed the annoying judgement window. How r u specing ur ret in bfa? What exactly do u find boring about the spec? Yea it's an ez spec to play but ret has always been ez to play.

Ret in MoP actually had one of the most complex priority lists and rotations. But Ret's faceroll, because someone made a joke about it way back in LK...

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How about removing holy power and giving us back 3.0 ret?

Only with the Tier 8 Divine Storm proc built-in. Also, this means not having an interrupt, and only having +15% runspeed for mobility. On the other hand, Freedom was stronger, bubble lasted longer (though it halved damage output), we had Repentance on a 1 min CD plus HoJ on a 40-60s CD. Oh, and we could talent for a lot of different CC duration reduction talents. When they removed almost all of those in Cata and baked in shorter CC durations, Paladins suffered a lot relative to other classes, because we'd always had those reductions, and they got given them for free, so we were nerfed in relative terms.

LK was a good time for Ret, but we can't go back unless everyone else is taken back as well.

[Cofic]

- All classes are not supposed to be the same, they should have different strengths and weaknesses, different niches. Paladins are kinda supposed to be the low mobility class.

-Its okay to have low mobility or much lower mobility than most. But the problem is that in pvp for example,its not the fact of low movement,its the fact of not being able to move or catch up to other people in any way. Freedom gets purged or even worse spell stolen. And then your not doing anything and being a sitting duck in the open. Idea for this is to change Unbound Freedom(honor talent) - freedom becomes unpurgable/stealable and increases mov speed by 30%.
-Divine Steed has only 3sec duration and if ur slowed/rooted you wont move anywhere for 3secs,even if ur not slowed 3 secs is way too short.(1min long cd aswell). My idea for this is to change Divine Steed - increase duration to 4-5secs and give it something like DK's death advance where ur either immune to movement impairing effects or cant be slowed under certain % for the duration or just removes all movement impairing effects on cast. Would slightly fix the need for more mobility in PvE aswell(now with 4-5secs of duration you can move those longer distances when needed,and if you need more of those,you take cavalier).
-Now another problem here is Hand of Hindrance(its magic,gets dispeled) which currently is on 30sec cd,look at every other melee and you will see that they all have a consistent slow,but more importantly most of them are not magic(cant be dispeled),and those who do have magic ones,can reuse them and counterplay their opponent(after all pvp should be a game of outplay imo). My idea for this is to change Hand of Hindrance cd reduced to something where it can be used consistently and to give us an ability to counterplay our opponents. Perhaps give it a 1HP cost or reduce the %percentage,and remove the cd or make it so its a much lesser cd like 15sec cd,but if dispeled,reduce or refresh cd(this would make to where you could only use it on 1 person at a time,unlike most other classes,which can slow multiple people at once).
-Another idea i had for a spell is Pursuit of Justice(replace Divine Steed,btw steed bugs out sometimes and gets canceled,when casted close to objects/walls idk if its fixable) - passive: mov speed increased by 15%(just like the old one). On use double the mov speed gained from it(to 30%) and become immune to mov. impairing effects/remove them on cast) for 6-8secs(similar to DK's death's advance).


As for eye for en eye change i proposed - Absorb shield from SoV isnt the same as actual mitigation you would get. And in legion for example,we needed more consistent mitigation(esp in high m+ and pvp). Sure Sov is much stronger than it used to be,but its still not mitigation,and having a solid choice of mitigation in talents would be good,its why it exists there in the 1st place. It just needs to be all damage mitigation,obv the % should be reduced then to like 25-30% and cd increased to like 1.5-2min. But its very important it becomes all damage mitigation. That choice is super important. Just look at DH for example and the amount of defensives they have,how low cd they are and how potent,Rogues as well and many others. Not even putting in consideration their mobility,which can also be used defensively.


Happy to see the Art of War/DP changes,havent had the chance to test them tho.

[Alvarado]

Only with the Tier 8 Divine Storm proc built-in. Also, this means not having an interrupt, and only having +15% runspeed for mobility. On the other hand, Freedom was stronger, bubble lasted longer (though it halved damage output), we had Repentance on a 1 min CD plus HoJ on a 40-60s CD. Oh, and we could talent for a lot of different CC duration reduction talents. When they removed almost all of those in Cata and baked in shorter CC durations, Paladins suffered a lot relative to other classes, because we'd always had those reductions, and they got given them for free, so we were nerfed in relative terms.

LK was a good time for Ret, but we can't go back unless everyone else is taken back as well.

Oh I know it wouldn't work. Me just asking for holy power to go away was just talking out loud so to speak, people have given blizzard thousands of feedback threads yet the one thing I'd like is to delete holy power, I just don't care for combo based systems.

[rubenmsalles]

Well, today they asuumed that our downtime was bestial (like 17% on target dummy), so they are doing some changes here and there to give us some options with nerfs, of course, to counter it (i am looking for you, Divine Purpose).
So, in resume, Ret BfA has 2 big issues: Mobility (less time on a target) and Rotation Downtime (more time waiting for autoattack and no button to press).
They did something to fix it (Yes, fix it. I know that your favorite influencer/streamer/youtuber said months ago that they have been fixed Ret in BfA, but isn't true, i am sorry. When you play the character in a real environment, not just target dummy, you will notice that is an uncompleted design), so they added now Gallant Steed http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=280189/gallant-steed as a azerite trait, of course, so you need to give up to a good passive effect to use it and they can remove it the next expansion, as always.
At least our utility will be good with a mass sprint to the raid, but is too early to talk, first we need to know how many speed is 77 and then we can make conclusions