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  1. #481
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Sense of disorientation and Isolation. Helps feeling like a underdog and a lost soul in a hostile world. It enhances the immersion. It also have the benefit of giving you more sense of joy when you find the secret or when you open that path to the latest save point.

    Further you go away from the save point you most likely feel like you have more to lose, you can probably sense that you are close to another safe place but you are never sure. A map would however show you that yes, you are now close to the shortcut.

    With a map you will never be lost, which is key component in the world they are trying to build.

    I'm trying to find videos on people talking about this cause I know I've heard better arguments from others. It's also a hard thing to describe because you don't get this feeling then it won't be a benefit to you, which is ok.
    I think that describes it quite well. That makes a ton of sense.

    When playing Bloodborne, I absolutely got that exact feeling. It was a bit of a back and forth between frustration of having to find my way back to where I was, and the sense of joy from finally battling my way back without any form of assistance in getting there. Though sadly for me, the frustration won the war and I gave up due to feeling like I was spending too much time walking around lost and not feeling any sense of progression for too long. Though I am absolutely sure that is 100% on me, and not really a fault of the game. I mean, I could absolutely make my own map as I move along that could help me, which is further my fault, lol.
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  2. #482
    Maps make sense for games like WoW and the witcher 3. But not sekiro....
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  3. #483
    I am Murloc! Cairhiin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I think that describes it quite well. That makes a ton of sense.

    When playing Bloodborne, I absolutely got that exact feeling. It was a bit of a back and forth between frustration of having to find my way back to where I was, and the sense of joy from finally battling my way back without any form of assistance in getting there. Though sadly for me, the frustration won the war and I gave up due to feeling like I was spending too much time walking around lost and not feeling any sense of progression for too long. Though I am absolutely sure that is 100% on me, and not really a fault of the game. I mean, I could absolutely make my own map as I move along that could help me, which is further my fault, lol.
    I think that you should see it as part of the journey. As @Kumorii pointed out, the lack of a map adds a sense of danger and risk vs reward. You never know if you are far away from, or close to a bonfire (for the sake of ease I just call them all bonfire). What to do if you are out of healing? Press on and risk dying? Or return to the bonfire and reset? This is a bit less an issue in Sekiro I find due to ease of escaping from combat but you are still never certain where the next bonfire, or shortcut, is. If there would be a map in game, it would take away a lot of exploration.

    As I said, you should see it as a part of the journey. While in Sekiro you lose 50% of your Sen and XP (unless you receive Unseen Aid) in Dark Souls you drop your souls and they are recoverable. Resetting can actually be beneficial as it allows you to grind souls/sen/xp to level up, buy items, or buy combat arts (Sekiro). I never feel that dying really sets me back in these kind of games (though dragonrot kinda sucks). Almost all deaths in these kind of games have meaning, they teach you something. Sure, there are those frustrating deaths that make you want to break your keyboard (or controller for those who play with one) but then I know it's usually time to take a break.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    As I said, you should see it as a part of the journey. While in Sekiro you lose 50% of your Sen and XP (unless you receive Unseen Aid) in Dark Souls you drop your souls and they are recoverable. Resetting can actually be beneficial as it allows you to grind souls/sen/xp to level up, buy items, or buy combat arts (Sekiro). I never feel that dying really sets me back in these kind of games (though dragonrot kinda sucks). Almost all deaths in these kind of games have meaning, they teach you something. Sure, there are those frustrating deaths that make you want to break your keyboard (or controller for those who play with one) but then I know it's usually time to take a break.
    Dark Souls 2 had an interesting solution to this. Enemies reset if you died or rested at a bonfire, but after you killed them 10-12 times, they stopped respawning. You could completely reset this process by burning a Bonfire Ascetic, or if you joined the Champion's Covenant they would NEVER disappear and actually become more powerful.

    This gave the player an option. They could grind their way through an area, or fail a bunch, but eventually the path would be cleared. Or they could choose to up the difficulty for more challenge.

    Dark Souls 2 did a lot of things badly, but that wasn't one of them.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  5. #485
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Just beat the game. Dunno why people were hyping up Demon of Hatred so much. I found him to be pretty easy honestly. Think it took me 4 attempts to kill him. The last boss was really epic. Great ending to the game. I'm gonna need to reflect on the game a bit more, but I think this is easily the best combat system From Software has created. Maybe the best combat system in any ARPG. If I compare it to Dark Souls, I'm not really sure how I feel. I think the game is definitely 10/10, but so is every Soulsbourne game except Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 (which are both 9/10s in my mind).

  6. #486
    I am Murloc! Cairhiin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Dark Souls 2 did a lot of things badly, but that wasn't one of them.
    A bit off topic but I personally really enjoyed DS2: SotFS. It had arguably the best replayability of all souls games. Bosses were a bit meh-ish, and the areas felt disconnected and not well designed but I enjoyed it nevertheless, and the DLCs were great.

  7. #487
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Honestly Dark Souls 2: SotFS has the most replayability of any of the soulsbourne games. There are so many builds you can do in that game, plus the fact that NG+ has different enemies and some of the bosses are different, and you can respec you character which means you can experiment. The first playthrough of the game is easily the weakest, but I've still beaten in like... 6 times. Also it has the hardest SL1 run.

    Replayability: Dark Souls 2 > Dark Souls >= Dark Souls 3 >>> Bloodborne >>> Sekiro

    First playthrough: Bloodborne == Sekiro >= Dark Souls == Dark Souls 3 >>> Dark Souls 2

    That's one of the reasons I prefer Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3 over Bloodborne, is that there are so many builds you can do in those games as compared to Bloodborne. But the first playthrough for those games is still amazing. That being said, Old Hunters is easily the best DLC and does a lot to elevate that game.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    A bit off topic but I personally really enjoyed DS2: SotFS. It had arguably the best replayability of all souls games. Bosses were a bit meh-ish, and the areas felt disconnected and not well designed but I enjoyed it nevertheless, and the DLCs were great.
    Don't get me wrong. I'm playing DS2: SoftFS right now. It's fun! But it has a lot of flaws too. Games don't have to be black and white good or bad based on one thing.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Don't get me wrong. I'm playing DS2: SoftFS right now. It's fun! But it has a lot of flaws too. Games don't have to be black and white good or bad based on one thing.
    It did have a lot more armor sets than 1 or 3. And I love that. Shame it didn't have Solaire set, though the way faith build got neutered, it was hilarious in hindsight.
    Last edited by Dead Moose Fandango; 2019-04-05 at 09:13 PM.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    That's one of the reasons I prefer Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3 over Bloodborne, is that there are so many builds you can do in those games as compared to Bloodborne. But the first playthrough for those games is still amazing. That being said, Old Hunters is easily the best DLC and does a lot to elevate that game.
    The thing is, Bloodborne does a few different builds you can run, but some of them require a LOT of farming in Chalice Dungeons to be halfway decent. You can more or less build around each individual weapon, although the stats are going to largely be the same for a lot of them.

    I think it's mostly that Dark Souls 1,2 and 3 just have a LOT more weapon and spell variety than BB. BB is 99% a melee game. I mean, there's ONE bow(and that build is really fun), and a bunch of guns that aren't really effective without a constant supply of bone ash. Magic builds don't really work until much later in the game, and still heavily rely on elemental melee weapons for clearing trash.

    Although I will say that the playstyle between each weapon in BB is a LOT different than each weapon in Souls games. For example: All straight swords have more or less the same move set. Spears are spears, etc, etc. While the difference between the Amigdala Arm and the Blades of Mercy are really significant. No two weapons in Bloodborne are the same.

    I haven't played Sekiro yet, but from what I understand the only real variation of build you have is through the prosthetic arm tools, and a few ninja techniques which have specific uses against various enemy weaknesses.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  11. #491
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The thing is, Bloodborne does a few different builds you can run, but some of them require a LOT of farming in Chalice Dungeons to be halfway decent. You can more or less build around each individual weapon, although the stats are going to largely be the same for a lot of them.

    I think it's mostly that Dark Souls 1,2 and 3 just have a LOT more weapon and spell variety than BB. BB is 99% a melee game. I mean, there's ONE bow(and that build is really fun), and a bunch of guns that aren't really effective without a constant supply of bone ash. Magic builds don't really work until much later in the game, and still heavily rely on elemental melee weapons for clearing trash.

    Although I will say that the playstyle between each weapon in BB is a LOT different than each weapon in Souls games. For example: All straight swords have more or less the same move set. Spears are spears, etc, etc. While the difference between the Amigdala Arm and the Blades of Mercy are really significant. No two weapons in Bloodborne are the same.

    I haven't played Sekiro yet, but from what I understand the only real variation of build you have is through the prosthetic arm tools, and a few ninja techniques which have specific uses against various enemy weaknesses.
    I think my issue with Bloodborne's replayability is that while there are a lot of diverse builds, the amount of work you have to do to make them effective is ridiculous, because there's no respeccing in the game. If you do a strength build in your first playthrough, and you wanna use lets say... a MLGS build, you have to start all over, play through basically the whole game and then get to Ludwig just so you can have a character with the Arcane to use it and then at that point you basically have to play through NG+ to actually have fun with the build.

    In DS2 and 3 you can play whatever build you want, respec and then switch to an entirely different build and have fun with it. In DS1, there are so many shortcuts that you can get a weapon in the weapon class you want to use pretty early on.

    Also, Sekiro basically has no build variety. Prosthetic tools can be useful but they are either niche or limited, so you can really do a prosthetic only run or something. Much like the guns in BB. The skills you get all basically work towards the same end goal. The game is fucking amazing, but yeah the replayability is in the excellence of the combat system and that will likely only last like one more playthrough for me for the platinum and then years down the road when I want to boot the game back up after I've forgotten what I've learned.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    I think my issue with Bloodborne's replayability is that while there are a lot of diverse builds, the amount of work you have to do to make them effective is ridiculous, because there's no respeccing in the game.
    I still wish they'd do a re-release, or a Game of the Year edition or something like Scholar of the First Sin..... Release it on all platforms, including PC, with a respec feature and maybe some different enemy locations or extra little features.


    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    Also, Sekiro basically has no build variety. Prosthetic tools can be useful but they are either niche or limited, so you can really do a prosthetic only run or something. Much like the guns in BB. The skills you get all basically work towards the same end goal. The game is fucking amazing, but yeah the replayability is in the excellence of the combat system and that will likely only last like one more playthrough for me for the platinum and then years down the road when I want to boot the game back up after I've forgotten what I've learned.
    That's somewhat disappointing. I know that supposedly From didn't want to get stuck in a rut with Souls games, but the formula is REALLY good. Both with build variety and replay value, as well as the whole invasion PVP thing. Does Sekiro even have invasions or anything like it?

    I hope they give us a Dark Souls 4, or a Bloodborne 2 or something next.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  13. #493
    I am Murloc! hellhamster's Avatar
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    There's a lack of build options that diminishes replayability for sure, but honestly, after I mastered the combat during my first playthrough, going through it the second time feels amazing. You basically very rarely die and feel a master at the game. You're always on your toes and pretty much a god at anticipating attacks. There's also bound to be missed stuff from the first playthrough, like the Purification bosses for me.

    Avoid ng+ to be honest though, it felt like the challenge was tiny due to all the boss memories' attack power.

    From pulled off an incredible feat with this game, making in my opinion the greatest and most addictive combat system an action rpg has ever had.
    Last edited by hellhamster; 2019-04-05 at 10:47 PM.

  14. #494
    I finally have another complaint: Using the jump>head stomp evade in a small room breaks lock on which against the poisonhand ninjas suuuucks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So i've had every prosthesis for a while now and tried them all out, not counting the final lapis upgrades since im not at those areas yet just had my first shot on Owl, got him down to a sliver of health and got corner trapped and i feel like people i know who say the game is harder and the prosthetics are shit just aren't using them right. I have enough charms for ten of the enhances, lingering firecrackers and thats a free stunlock ten times per boss fight which is ridiculous in terms of giving you time to heal or get in their blind spots but i know people that think they only exist for dogs because the first hint about them suggests to use them on beasts and makes them think it only works well against beasts.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    A bit off topic but I personally really enjoyed DS2: SotFS. It had arguably the best replayability of all souls games. Bosses were a bit meh-ish, and the areas felt disconnected and not well designed but I enjoyed it nevertheless, and the DLCs were great.
    uhm, i never found ds2's areas bad designed, surely the world map was bad and still now i find lordran by far the best one of all ds and sekiro (even if ashina is very close), but frankly i cant think in ds1 better areas than the forest of fallen giant, no-man's wharf, lost bastille, the gutter or the dlc ones (without frigid outskirts). maybe the painted world and sen's fortress, but even them compared seem long "corridor".
    imo ds2 only problem is being called a ds. i liked its lore, but is very disconnected from ds1 considering how much instead ds3 maintained and how the focus changed on the humans and their emotions

  16. #496
    Bloodborne has mad repeatability.

    I hear that clock tower ring and im there.
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  17. #497
    Wait can someone explain the lore to me?

    1. Does anyone have a link to the clip where Wolf dies and Kuro revives him, 3 years ago? Where Owl was also thought to have died? Where was that story fleshed out?

    2. So...Genichiro kidnapped Kuro...to try and become immortal...so that he could solo all the enemy armies?

    3. Genichiro drank the rejuvenating waters. Which is what exactly? Is he also immortal?

    4. What was Genichiro planning to do with the second Mortal Blade? Where was it ever stated that killing yourself with Kuro's blood would let your dead grandpa revive? I don't get what the fuck that was about.


    Please help explain it to me. I only watched a Lets Play on youtube of the game so I'm confused, but I need lore answers.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    Wait can someone explain the lore to me?

    1. Does anyone have a link to the clip where Wolf dies and Kuro revives him, 3 years ago? Where Owl was also thought to have died? Where was that story fleshed out?

    2. So...Genichiro kidnapped Kuro...to try and become immortal...so that he could solo all the enemy armies?

    3. Genichiro drank the rejuvenating waters. Which is what exactly? Is he also immortal?

    4. What was Genichiro planning to do with the second Mortal Blade? Where was it ever stated that killing yourself with Kuro's blood would let your dead grandpa revive? I don't get what the fuck that was about.


    Please help explain it to me. I only watched a Lets Play on youtube of the game so I'm confused, but I need lore answers.
    To explain some of those points:

    Genichiro wanted the Dragon's Blood to restore his Grandfather Isshin to full health so that he could protect the country like he did in the past. As for the Black Mortal blade there is a note at Isshin's tower that explains it's basically the oposite of the red mortal blade and by using the dragon's blood it can create life so Genichiro used it to revive Isshin in his prime.

  19. #499
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    So I hopped into NG+ and it's crazy the progression you go through with this game. Lady Butterfly took me... like 20+ attempts on my first playthrough and this time I didn't even have to use a revive on her. I killed Tutorial Genichiro with ease, hell I didn't even die until Genichiro and despite him taking me probably 30 attempts on the first playthrough, the next attempt I killed him with no revives and only 3 gourd flasks used.

    That being said, I think this basically guarantees that I'll only get 2 playthroughs out of the game. NG+ is pretty easy so far and if this keeps up, I only really forsee Young BirdBoi, DoH and SSI giving me any trouble.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    uhm, i never found ds2's areas bad designed, surely the world map was bad and still now i find lordran by far the best one of all ds and sekiro (even if ashina is very close), but frankly i cant think in ds1 better areas than the forest of fallen giant, no-man's wharf, lost bastille, the gutter or the dlc ones (without frigid outskirts). maybe the painted world and sen's fortress, but even them compared seem long "corridor".
    imo ds2 only problem is being called a ds. i liked its lore, but is very disconnected from ds1 considering how much instead ds3 maintained and how the focus changed on the humans and their emotions
    Dark souls 2 actually remains the highest From Software reviewed game according to Metacritic. It gets too much flak and bash from the Dark souls 1 crowd who just wanted another carbon copy of Dark souls 1. It's still the Souls games I've played the most and my favorite to this day. And this is after already having done up to NG+4 on Sekiro, for the different endings.

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