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Thread: 2H Frost QNA

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    Not at all. There are 3 talents out of 21 that are related to auto-attacks. Icy Talons, Runic Attenunation and Frozen Pulse. And there wouldn't be any reason to change those to suit 2H because you can simply choose the other talents for 2H and consider those specific talents for DW
    Yes it is every damage modifier, any proc, and buff (inculding runeforges) are balanced about being DW. Wanna know a talent thats based on having a 1 hand and you havent had a clue? Frostscythe. They would have to make 2 versions of the same spell one for DW and one for 2h. You tell me if this wouldnt be a balancing nightmare.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-06-15 at 05:56 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Wanna know a talent thats based on having a 1 hand and you havent had a clue? Frostscythe.
    Can you explain this? It seems to do flat damage, especially in BFA, but there's a mechanic you're aware of that I am not.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    Can you explain this? It seems to do flat damage, especially in BFA, but there's a mechanic you're aware of that I am not.
    to me it sounds like he is implying that you just can't use the ability with a 2hander equipped

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaxus View Post
    to me it sounds like he is implying that you just can't use the ability with a 2hander equipped
    If that's the case, he's wrong as on both Live and Beta, you can use Frostscythe with a 2H equipped.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylad View Post
    If that's the case, he's wrong as on both Live and Beta, you can use Frostscythe with a 2H equipped.
    We have come to a point where Kendros is just saying things with no truth behind it just to be in the way... sad

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    Can you explain this? It seems to do flat damage, especially in BFA, but there's a mechanic you're aware of that I am not.
    Damage is based on the main hand damage, theres a big difference between the damage of a 1hand and a 2 hand just enabling it to be used with a 2 hand would make it deal insane amounts of damage. We would need a second version of this talent based on a 2hand weapon like most of other talents.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-06-15 at 10:26 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Damage is based on the main hand damage, you would need a second version of this talent based on a 2hand weapon like most of other talents.
    Damage calcs in BFA are based off attack power.

    http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=207230/frostscythe

    A sweeping attack that strikes all enemies in front of you for (14% of Attack power) Frost damage. This attack benefits from Killing Machine. Critical strikes with Frostscythe deal 4 times normal damage.

    To clarify, this means most classes scale similarly to monks in MoP era (the damage dealt by most monk abilities didn't care about weapon damage or speed, making 2h monks do very very comparable damage to dual wielding monks, save for having an extra weapon enchant).
    Last edited by blackblade; 2018-06-15 at 10:25 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    Damage calcs in BFA are based off attack power.

    http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=207230/frostscythe

    A sweeping attack that strikes all enemies in front of you for (14% of Attack power) Frost damage. This attack benefits from Killing Machine. Critical strikes with Frostscythe deal 4 times normal damage.

    To clarify, this means most classes scale similarly to monks in MoP era (the damage dealt by most monk abilities didn't care about weapon damage or speed, making 2h monks do very very comparable damage to dual wielding monks, save for having an extra weapon enchant).
    No they are not weapon damage is still part of the calculation, thats just misinformation spread out on the community, the difference is that all attacks now benefit more from AP not just from weapon damage.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-06-15 at 10:29 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Yes it is every damage modifier, any proc, and buff (inculding runeforges) are balanced about being DW. Wanna know a talent thats based on having a 1 hand and you havent had a clue? Frostscythe. They would have to make 2 versions of the same spell one for DW and one for 2h. You tell me if this wouldnt be a balancing nightmare.
    Wrong, Frostscythe is one of the few Frost abilities that has no restriction.

  10. #70
    Wouldn't it make more sense for unholy dk's to dual wield with a fast-paced play style? Being the spec that uses disease-riddled rune weapons to strike as many infected wounds on the target, and then bursting them with shadow/death magic?

    And for frost dk's to be the icy, heavy hitting undead juggernauts they have always been portrayed as?

    This would fix both class fantasy and make sure atleast one plate spec uses 1h strength based weapons. Which seems like something blizzard really wants to keep, for some reason...

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Acherus01 View Post
    Wouldn't it make more sense for unholy dk's to dual wield with a fast-paced play style? Being the spec that uses disease-riddled rune weapons to strike as many infected wounds on the target, and then bursting them with shadow/death magic?

    And for frost dk's to be the icy, heavy hitting undead juggernauts they have always been portrayed as?

    This would fix both class fantasy and make sure atleast one plate spec uses 1h strength based weapons. Which seems like something blizzard really wants to keep, for some reason...
    My thought also...

    "Frost death knights deal large amounts of damage through powerful strikes and use of runic power. Unholy death knights focus more on rune regeneration, fast-paced attacks, and the aid of undead minions."

    Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    My thought also...

    "Frost death knights deal large amounts of damage through powerful strikes and use of runic power. Unholy death knights focus more on rune regeneration, fast-paced attacks, and the aid of undead minions."

    Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight
    Looks like Blizzard really dropped the ball on this one... Shame class fantasy never extended to their specs.

    Hopefully "Spec fantasy" will come become relevant in the future. One can dream.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Acherus01 View Post
    Wouldn't it make more sense for unholy dk's to dual wield with a fast-paced play style? Being the spec that uses disease-riddled rune weapons to strike as many infected wounds on the target, and then bursting them with shadow/death magic?

    And for frost dk's to be the icy, heavy hitting undead juggernauts they have always been portrayed as?

    This would fix both class fantasy and make sure atleast one plate spec uses 1h strength based weapons. Which seems like something blizzard really wants to keep, for some reason...
    This has been pointed out countless times by now, in the end when blizzard trashed the old talent trees the devs just half-assed it and saw that the DW talents were in the very early tiers of frost (with one exception further down the tree), so that everyone could grap them with the usual 20/51 builds. *(see edit) At first they settled for frost being both dw and 2h, but because they are lazy, and because they put zero thought into it, made frost DW only option in legion and unholy got stuck with swinging their wannabe 2h sword with ludicrous speed. The last shred of the actual class fantasy is only alive in blood.. kinda, but even they went for so much haste (because mastery was just not worth it in legion) that they look like some anime samurai as well.

    It's too late to expect changes here though, at least as far as hard rules go. The only change I could see here would be in the distant future, there might be a possibility that makes Blizzard open up their restrictions again when it comes to weapons once they have finally equalized them completely.

    I doubt this will be any time soon, especially with them having pissed away so much development time in alpha/beta and now lagging behind 2 months before release.

    *Edit: It's also not like everyone always wanted to play DW, DW has the unfortunate effect that it tends to overshadow 2h because blizzard has historically failed to make them even, so every spec that can DW usually ends up dual-wielding with a few temporary exceptions here and there over the years. So even if it was the case that back then many frost DKs were dual wielding, it hasn't been entirely by choice for everyone.

    As for abilities being AP based as the tooltip suggests:
    Frost scythe is definitely 100% based on AP (and mastery) alone atm in beta. Obliterate is a different beast. I'm not sure what I'm missing with the scaling of Obliterate, but it deals considerably less damage than both the ingame tooltip and the datamined % based one suggests.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2018-06-16 at 12:27 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    As for abilities being AP based as the tooltip suggests:
    Frost scythe is definitely 100% based on AP (and mastery) alone atm in beta. Obliterate is a different beast. I'm not sure what I'm missing with the scaling of Obliterate, but it deals considerably less damage than both the ingame tooltip and the datamined % based one suggests.
    Since Obliterate is physical damage, doesn't every mob's armor reduce it's damage?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylad View Post
    Since Obliterate is physical damage, doesn't every mob's armor reduce it's damage?
    I'm off by like 60% (or around 40% mitigation), which afaik should not be the case for your normal level 110 target dummy (Training Dummy) in acherus.

    I worked out that the offhand scaling, which is also described in the tooltip, does count only for 50% of the damage, so that modifier still applies. So instead of the 60% ap + 60% ap, in truth you should be hitting for 60% and 30% after applying the offhand modifier. The mainhand according to the tooltip should still hit for 1680 according to my calculations (1400 str = 2800 AP; 2800*60%= 1680).

    But my mainhand obliterate hits for roughly 950-1000, my offhand for about half of that. The ingame tooltip suggests my obliterate should hit for 1950, the missing 400 between the tooltip and the combat log is probably due to the armor, but I'm still not sure how the 60% ap and 60(30)% ap would fit into that.

    Edit: Just noticed that I still have the tier bonus active... gotta try wihout it
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2018-06-16 at 02:09 PM.

  16. #76
    The obvious solution to me is to just open up the transmog system to allow more options, and recycle animations with effects to allow more weapon combinations. This would solve all of class/spec/weapon desires in one fell swoop, rather than tinkering with each one individually. 2h Enh, Sword and Shield DPS, and 2 h Frost are all big asks from the player base. Giving them this in an easy to handle way, that doesn't effect people that love the current system, and with minimal effort, is a win/win.

  17. #77
    Just to note, Frostscythe now deals the same damage whether using 2H or DW.
    But, DW still deals approximately 30ish% more auto attack damage compared to 2H.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    The obvious solution to me is to just open up the transmog system to allow more options, and recycle animations with effects to allow more weapon combinations. This would solve all of class/spec/weapon desires in one fell swoop, rather than tinkering with each one individually. 2h Enh, Sword and Shield DPS, and 2 h Frost are all big asks from the player base. Giving them this in an easy to handle way, that doesn't effect people that love the current system, and with minimal effort, is a win/win.
    Blizz please you must listen to Bob Ross.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    The obvious solution to me is to just open up the transmog system to allow more options, and recycle animations with effects to allow more weapon combinations. This would solve all of class/spec/weapon desires in one fell swoop, rather than tinkering with each one individually. 2h Enh, Sword and Shield DPS, and 2 h Frost are all big asks from the player base. Giving them this in an easy to handle way, that doesn't effect people that love the current system, and with minimal effort, is a win/win.
    Based on the front page thing with druid transmog they have the tech to do this already(polearm turns into dual daggers/claws for instance). Hopefully they throw us a bone. I just like the appearance of 2 handers so much more as a Frost DK. Don't care if the numbers reflect dual wield.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcarsenal View Post
    Based on the front page thing with druid transmog they have the tech to do this already(polearm turns into dual daggers/claws for instance). Hopefully they throw us a bone. I just like the appearance of 2 handers so much more as a Frost DK. Don't care if the numbers reflect dual wield.
    This, and it is really kick in the nuts that you can equip a 2h and make it look like 1-handers, yet still be a gimped version of the spec, but you can't equip 1-handers and make it look like a 2h.

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