No major changes for Havoc anymore until at least 8.1

[AnEpicName]

Do you play high rating pvp or high mythik dungeons or top 100 raid?

I don't think so sry.
Maybe for normal hc raiding or just for fun 1800 arena bfa dh is atm playable for more sry it isn't

I do, and yes DH is just fine. All you people just wine and complain about literally anything. Its pathetic.

[Deleted]

I do, and yes DH is just fine. All you people just wine and complain about literally anything. Its pathetic.

DHis not fine and calling critique and complains about the gameplay of DH which is not existent and runs down to a 2 button spam is NOT wining and neither is it pathetic. Maybe you enjoy a class with only 2 buttons because anything more would be to much for you, but at least i do not.

[Sylvaeres]

DHis not fine and calling critique and complains about the gameplay of DH which is not existent and runs down to a 2 button spam is NOT wining and neither is it pathetic. Maybe you enjoy a class with only 2 buttons because anything more would be to much for you, but at least i do not.

You sound extremely whiney right now. The class could use some work, but we haven't even gotten to see the full extent of the class with azerite gear, proper stat allocation, numbers tuned, or most of the fights yet. 1 hour of testing here or there isn't a good indication of the class

[Orloth]

Keep it clean and civil, people.

[iddqd]

I am also ok with Havoc DH. For me, one of the best DPS specs in BFA till now (Fury Warrior is the only contender; besides, where does all the love for the new demo warlock come from? Horrible, imho). I love it that Blizzard fought the boredom of Legion and we have more buttons to press, especially a momentum build that has a working flow (VR>FR or FR>Felblade). Fel Barrage hits like a truck and Eyebeam is nice for ST too. They already raised the fury cap to 120.

Sure, the spec still has some flaws: Fel Barrage fully channeled feels strange. Fury cap could be still 10-20 higher (with 120 you can do 3 CS without proccing, but you mostly only get to 120 while overcapping). Meta could have its CD reduced further and bring something interesting to the able, its current passives are booooooooooooooring!

[Deleted]

You sound extremely whiney right now. The class could use some work, but we haven't even gotten to see the full extent of the class with azerite gear, proper stat allocation, numbers tuned, or most of the fights yet. 1 hour of testing here or there isn't a good indication of the class

You sound extremely blind here. "It's alpha, wait for beta" "it's beta, wait for ptr" "it's ptr, wait for release" "it's release, wait for 8.1" and now it's "wait for gear"? Come on dude, are you really one of those guys?

[Sesethi]

Just let the legion fotm rerollers go away. I love the pacing of DH in BFA. Love having imolation aura with the 2 specs. I am a bit worried about how the spec will work for pvp atm as we have constant damage that can be neglected while havin 2-3 heavy spike damage spells that can be dealt with + meh self healing, but it is too early to claim the spec is doomed

[Deleted]

They will do number tuning, which is good of course, but no talent tuning anymore, which is a disaster. So don't worry, you probably will do "ok" dps, you will just not enjoy doing it (don't worry, I know some of you will still like the current iteration, someone is always easily satisfied).

Interested as to why Bay is spewing Kreygasm all over the place over how amazing he says Havoc is?

[Cyanu]

calling out BS whining

Havoc is among the specs that got the best reworks and it's among the most anticipated specs in BfA

so tired of people confusing the 'it's not exactly what i envisioned' with 'it's broken/garbage/unplayable'

[Accendor]

Interested as to why Bay is spewing Kreygasm all over the place over how amazing he says Havoc is?

who is bay?

[Deleted]

who is bay?

https ://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=FGWrLHscRr8&t= 668s

Makes videos of varying quality of all specs for new expansions, which are posted on the mmo-champ homepage.

[Deleted]

calling out BS whining

Havoc is among the specs that got the best reworks and it's among the most anticipated specs in BfA

so tired of people confusing the 'it's not exactly what i envisioned' with 'it's broken/garbage/unplayable'

funny XD.

The best rework gets fury and Arms. After this sv hunter> frost dk and than comes DH.

Pls tell me how could be DH the best rework if the specc feels total broken in pvp ? Do you play Arena high lvl 120 ialpha / beta ?

I do and its not only number tuning with all the gcds that we have vs other class havent with all the restrict to our abilitys our toolkit for pvp is full broken.

Without our range attacks (fel barrage and bloodlet), with the cc nerf to inprison, the nerf to chaosnova plus the insane buff to other classes we are far behind.

Rogue no GCD on movement abilitys
Hunter no GCD on movement abilitys
Warrior no GCD on movement abilitys (yes charge but jump has no GCD)
DK get a new movement ability ( yes with talent but it is their)
Monks only have a 1 sec GCD.

Our main stun gets hard nerfed Monks main stun is now talent free.

We loose our full playstyle in arena. Only the Demonic playstyle stay back and this doesnt work well like it works in early legion.

We have the worse selfheal from all classes like in legion but now we also loose our abilitys to kill other melees with range.
We have to fight melee and that is the dead vs all DKs, Monks, Warriors, Rets, Enhancer and Feral, if we could never go on range without loose all our damage. Rogues without bloodlet they have a free kill.

Feral, Rogues kill us in 1 stun or let us die bye dots.
Warrior finish us in 1 Stormbolt. If both have a healer the game tooks longer but still nearly zero chance to win. Because he has MS plus more damage plus more utility yes ( spell reflect, disarm, fear, stun, slow, CC cd reduce, hp shout etc.)
DK finish us in 4 secs. because we cant stay one range to them (we have less damage one range than a frost dk)
Enhancer could oneshot us with one good crit proc. And our SV abilitys are the same garbage than his. He has perma slow and more selfheal.
Sv hunter kill us one range or after doting switching melee and 1 pet stun end it.
Retris kill us in 1 stun and we do less damage than they heal

For me DH has the same prob like in Legion first season, we get so hard nerfed that we arent competitive in Arena. Only Number tuning doesnt rectify our problems, maybe we get than enough burst to one shot one first but after a hot fix we still suck.

With all the nerfs to FB with the remove of our artifact weapon and bloodlet, with the nerfs to gcd and our cc we have real problems in PVP.

Maybe in pve with number tuning the class could work maybe only with bad desing Dark slash but i could work. In PVP i dont think numbertuning helps us. If they buff our damage that we are eligible but than all other cry and we get instant nerf to the ground (like legion first 2 weaks after arena starts)

https ://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=FGWrLHscRr8&t= 668s

Makes videos of varying quality of all specs for new expansions, which are posted on the mmo-champ homepage.

Yes PVE he only talks about PVE, plus he is 110 so its like 7.0 Yeah X class feels great in pre patch oO

[Asphixiation]

My only real complaint about Havoc for PvP is that Fel Barrage and Eye Beam are able to be interrupted. Other classes with similar abilities do not have this problem (Fist of Fury and Blade storm for example). Other than that I think we are good. Both demonic and Nemesis can be used spec wise. Momentum isn't bad but I feel you need fel rush for movement.

As for CC, I really like Fel Eruption. Up to 4 seconds from 2 on a 30 second CD. For some comps we might need to take Master of the Glaive for an on demand slow but otherwise i think Fel Eruption will be the go to.

The main difference between Legion and BFA is in Legion the talents were fairly set and forget. BFA we will need to change talents around a lot more pre match depending of the comp. That and we are also no longer nigh unkillable during Meta, which sucks but is something that we will just will need to get used too.

[Deleted]

The main difference between Legion and BFA is in Legion the talents were fairly set and forget. BFA we will need to change talents around a lot more pre match depending of the comp. That and we are also no longer nigh unkillable during Meta, which sucks but is something that we will just will need to get used too.

We have the same 40% leech in meta. In legion in arena dh meta leech was fixed to 40 %.

The thing with eyebeam and felbarrage is a bit bad designed. It is both a cast but we are a melee and the damage isnt higher than fof or bladedance so i don't understand why we can be interrupted. Also I think felbarrage channel time should be reduced to 1 or max 2 seconds. 3 seconds without doing anything else feels mäh as melee

[Deleted]

Skimming through the topic and reading people linking finalboss tv vids was kinda funny. There's a reason why people have been calling his video on dh kinda bs. He was even infact wrong about several facts regarding the transition between legion dh and bfa dh. Perhaps watching the video of the 2600 rating dh where he says that dh is in a very weak arena spot might be more accurate, just saying. Anyway. I'm not sure why people are assuming dh are fine, perhaps It's because they think that not being affected by the gcd change = autowin, disregarding the fact that blizz is buffing numbers for classes that are affected by this, or entirely rework the spec (hi demo, fury warrior!). The problem with dh isn't about killing some random retarded npc mobs in the open. No one fucking cares if you enjoy doing open world questing as a dh, killing shit and not struggling. Guess what, they do that live as well while other classes on live also struggle, no big deal, the game isn't balanced towards that to begin with. Don't spout that dh is fine just based off that. It's the reason why DH has been in a weak spot for 2 tiers straight now. People giving off false info.

Also pls stop trying to justify that dh is fine when it was majorily just an alt that you barely know anything about, that's pretty annoying and all you're doing is spreading misinformation, I could argue why, but just take it as a fact. Dh's problem with the fury cap is okay now, although it could really just use 20 more and be fine. The 40% on the chaos strike refund is still too low. Comparison: Back in EN when DH were pretty new you could already have 50% crit with gear alone. Now you're 10% under that and that will never change unless they make some kind of azerite trait for it. That lowers our crit scaling immensely, sure it raises our mastery scaling but if that would be enough is left to be seen. The demonic appetite being on the first row is still a very very weird decision of blizzard, no one complained that the talent was in the wrong row, just that the rng tied to it was crap, which they fixed so I praise blizz for fixing the rng, not so much for fucking over demonic kinda. You either go blind fury or demonic appetite, you can't go both.

Vengeful Retreat, still on the gcd, kinda a problem - no one would miss the damage portion being removed as long as the spell goes off the gcd. Make it do damage with the momentum talent, solved.

Now consider this: Right now, bfa for high m+ has a lot of very melee unfriendly dunguons, so much so that along with the 'no gear swap' thing you're probably not going to get taken. Leech could of compensated, but not anymore. Another issue and a major one with dh is that most of the talents are just point blank weak. I don't care if you say 'oh but they felt good to me, oh I can use one db and then cs' stfu with that shit. Logs are there, facts are on the table, all those talents you're bragging about are just weak and undertuned. Look at the fel barrage row. Would you ever take something else? Be real. Talent choice isn't there, yes they gave us more option in theory, but in practice only a handful of them are viable, sticking you to one singular build as per usual. I'm not sure what the goal was of this rework and I bet that you white knights that call dh 'fine or op' don't know the intended goal for the rework either. Dh compared to other classes is weak right now and in certain other ways, clunky. That much has been proven, it is most def. not one of the best classes out there, and certainly being barely affected by the gcd changes has nothing to do with it. It just underperforms, brings close to no utility (don't even try to mention chaos brand when the tank can bring it as well) and is just another melee that is a liability right now within high bfa m+ dungs.

People here aren't whining, their feedback is just. Blizzard has promised 'major' spec changes back in 7.2.5. We're in BFA and the playstyle is still, exactly, the same. Chaos strike.

ps: that leech nerf in pvp isn't 40%, It's even lower in bfa. Just throwing that out there. In pve It's 40%, I guess, but that won't save you from a lot once you get into the serious content.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

The only thing stopping them from balancing classes is probably is multiple gear sets though. It can't be the fact they just don't put the work in period.

[Meanshield]

Does Havoc need changes tho? Demonic works fine on BFA, Momentum seems to be in a decent place (hard to properly test with 200ms) and the only shit thing is currently the Nemesis-build along with Dark Slash on the GCD.

Havoc has seen the identity of the spec trashed from what it was in Emerald Nightmare to Nighthold and beyond. Gone from being a spec possibly not made for all, to a noobified spec where you basically generate on a proc and just click 1 button for 95% of a boss fight.

Just bcos Fury and some other classes received major changes, doenst mean all needs that.

[szandos]

Can't really see DH as viable for pvp as long as Eye Beam and Fel Barrage can be kicked. Similar abilities on melee (Bladestorm, FoF) cannot, don't see why the discrepancy.

As for pve I think DH are in a decent spot, pending tuning. Chaos Brand is good utility in M+ at least.

[Kezuma]

Can't really see DH as viable for pvp as long as Eye Beam and Fel Barrage can be kicked. Similar abilities on melee (Bladestorm, FoF) cannot, don't see why the discrepancy.

As for pve I think DH are in a decent spot, pending tuning. Chaos Brand is good utility in M+ at least.

And with that note u roll a veng dh and get 3 casters and u profit like a boss. Havoc got no place in m+ atm

[Sylvaeres]

You sound extremely blind here. "It's alpha, wait for beta" "it's beta, wait for ptr" "it's ptr, wait for release" "it's release, wait for 8.1" and now it's "wait for gear"? Come on dude, are you really one of those guys?

I play the class, both on live and on beta. It isn't that bad, especially since they buffed max fury from 100 to 120 (which was the biggest complaint about the class, hands down). We bring a massive buff for raids and dungeons, we still have our CCs, we still have our mobility, and we haven't gotten to the point where we know how good or bad we are. Is it a different playstyle from on live? Of course. But many classes have changed. Until you see how the class plays after the first tier, wuth real gear and enchants and gems and stat allocation, you can't say the sky is falling

- - - Updated - - -

Skimming through the topic and reading people linking finalboss tv vids was kinda funny. There's a reason why people have been calling his video on dh kinda bs. He was even infact wrong about several facts regarding the transition between legion dh and bfa dh. Perhaps watching the video of the 2600 rating dh where he says that dh is in a very weak arena spot might be more accurate, just saying. Anyway. I'm not sure why people are assuming dh are fine, perhaps It's because they think that not being affected by the gcd change = autowin, disregarding the fact that blizz is buffing numbers for classes that are affected by this, or entirely rework the spec (hi demo, fury warrior!). The problem with dh isn't about killing some random retarded npc mobs in the open. No one fucking cares if you enjoy doing open world questing as a dh, killing shit and not struggling. Guess what, they do that live as well while other classes on live also struggle, no big deal, the game isn't balanced towards that to begin with. Don't spout that dh is fine just based off that. It's the reason why DH has been in a weak spot for 2 tiers straight now. People giving off false info.

Also pls stop trying to justify that dh is fine when it was majorily just an alt that you barely know anything about, that's pretty annoying and all you're doing is spreading misinformation, I could argue why, but just take it as a fact. Dh's problem with the fury cap is okay now, although it could really just use 20 more and be fine. The 40% on the chaos strike refund is still too low. Comparison: Back in EN when DH were pretty new you could already have 50% crit with gear alone. Now you're 10% under that and that will never change unless they make some kind of azerite trait for it. That lowers our crit scaling immensely, sure it raises our mastery scaling but if that would be enough is left to be seen. The demonic appetite being on the first row is still a very very weird decision of blizzard, no one complained that the talent was in the wrong row, just that the rng tied to it was crap, which they fixed so I praise blizz for fixing the rng, not so much for fucking over demonic kinda. You either go blind fury or demonic appetite, you can't go both.

Vengeful Retreat, still on the gcd, kinda a problem - no one would miss the damage portion being removed as long as the spell goes off the gcd. Make it do damage with the momentum talent, solved.

Now consider this: Right now, bfa for high m+ has a lot of very melee unfriendly dunguons, so much so that along with the 'no gear swap' thing you're probably not going to get taken. Leech could of compensated, but not anymore. Another issue and a major one with dh is that most of the talents are just point blank weak. I don't care if you say 'oh but they felt good to me, oh I can use one db and then cs' stfu with that shit. Logs are there, facts are on the table, all those talents you're bragging about are just weak and undertuned. Look at the fel barrage row. Would you ever take something else? Be real. Talent choice isn't there, yes they gave us more option in theory, but in practice only a handful of them are viable, sticking you to one singular build as per usual. I'm not sure what the goal was of this rework and I bet that you white knights that call dh 'fine or op' don't know the intended goal for the rework either. Dh compared to other classes is weak right now and in certain other ways, clunky. That much has been proven, it is most def. not one of the best classes out there, and certainly being barely affected by the gcd changes has nothing to do with it. It just underperforms, brings close to no utility (don't even try to mention chaos brand when the tank can bring it as well) and is just another melee that is a liability right now within high bfa m+ dungs.

People here aren't whining, their feedback is just. Blizzard has promised 'major' spec changes back in 7.2.5. We're in BFA and the playstyle is still, exactly, the same. Chaos strike.

ps: that leech nerf in pvp isn't 40%, It's even lower in bfa. Just throwing that out there. In pve It's 40%, I guess, but that won't save you from a lot once you get into the serious content.

I'm sorry but I'm struggling to take you seriously. Nice rant, but you talk about other people playing it as an alt, and your dh isn't even 930 ILvL according to your signature. I mean, talk about hypocritical