Elemental Comparison to all other Casters Discussion

[Kralljin]

I am kinda tired already for today to make any coherent reply, maybe add something tomorrow if you wish to continue this conversation, but if we are talking about competitive scene - you won't stick to a single spec. You won't sit there and wait until blizzard does something, you will roll a demo for BfA (who has little to no utility besides the gate anda combat res by the way but are still best performing spec right now, before numbers tuning), and swap to the next best performing class if its needed

Generally i agree with you on that sentiment.
But i already tackled this above: It's not just that Elemental is bad, Dps Shaman as a whole is bad.

If Elemental was the "dead" spec of Shaman, okay, shit happens, i'll go enhance, but enhance is overall hardly better and that's kinda the dealbreaker for me, 2/3 of the Shaman class is not considered good for High level mythic raiding, this is a throwback to Vanilla where you have the choice between rerolling to a "proper dps" or go resto.

If two specs of a class are just shit, then the devs fucked up and this is not some scenario that only happens during those crazy expansion release times, that is groundhog day for any person that wants to dps but still play shaman.
Because the repetition of both Enhancement and Elemental being treated as "fringe" specs by a lot of mythic raiders is just disheartening, but the reputation is sadly well earned because ever since Wotlk (which was released a decade ago btw.) seeing those specs in good mythic guilds remained the exception rather than the rule.

Take this example to the Mage side, imagine if both Arcane and Frost remained trash compared to Fire since Wotlk, Mages would have jumped at Blizzards throat sooner or later.

As last sentence, it's not just the utility of Elemental that is debatable, the fact that Blizzard constantly tunes this spec dpswise *just* below average is quite strange, because that it what kills the spec usually.

[Ranulf13]

The fact that AGAIN Ele is going to be hot garbage because no one on Blizz gives a moldy shit about it AGAIN and its niche will be ''low level M+ and that one raid AoE encounter that is a joke anyways'' is just disgusting. Blizz replace wow devs challenge.

I really wanted to come back to play because I love Ele shaman but looks like its going to be ''fuck Ele for 80% of the expansion'' once again.

[Socialhealer]

The vast majority of players are at a level where elemental is viable and player skill matters far more than class choice does.

none of the cutting edge guilds are always using elemental shamans therefore 0 people in the world are skilled enough.

well it's that or none take elemental because it bring literally nothing to a raid group.

hmmm which sounds more likely.

- - - Updated - - -

The fact that AGAIN Ele is going to be hot garbage because no one on Blizz gives a moldy shit about it AGAIN and its niche will be ''low level M+ and that one raid AoE encounter that is a joke anyways'' is just disgusting. Blizz replace wow devs challenge.

I really wanted to come back to play because I love Ele shaman but looks like its going to be ''fuck Ele for 80% of the expansion'' once again.

yeah people can go LOOK elemental is in the top 10 parsing specs for the tier!

because it tops like 3 super fucking easy AoE fights guilds can easily do with 0 ele shamans anyway, and the final 5 fights of the tier requires utility, mobility, survival, high single target dps and elemental is like bottom 5 on all fights.

[Kalisandra]

Blizzard isn`t going to balance their game around elite level players who don`t want to play multiple specs. The vast majority of players are at a level where elemental is viable and player skill matters far more than class choice does.

This argument, which people make over and over, is simply wrong.

If your guild is progressing at the limit of its collective ability, and runs into a roadblock due to lack of skill (rather than gear), then yes, they can pass it by getting better at that fight. However, they can also pass that fight by making it easier by getting on alts that are better at that fight. Now, if some specs are simply worse at everything, obviously this particular raid would be better off avoiding those low-performing specs, and this is true no matter what the level of play.

If a spec is slower and squishier than other specs in its role, and also does average or low DPS, is simply worse, and people will avoid it at all levels of play. The degree of avoidance might be lower in very easy content if the spec has other draws such as very nice spell effects or cool lore, but as soon as there's any requirement to play to a standard, the lower performing specs will be taken less. Simple as that.

[Tikishock]

I agree that people of all levels of play will still want to play specs or classes with above average dps. Yes, in heroic I assume all specs are "viable" but I don't think people just want viable. They want a spec that is going to perform well on dps meters. I know I do. It doesn't matter if I'm in a Cutting Edge guild or an AOTC guild--I, and probably other people, still want to play a class that is going to perform well on the dps meters regardless of their talent/skill/raiding level.

Let's say that I'm in the 50th percentile of dps performance. I'm still going to want to play a class that can do the most dps regardless of whether I have "room to improve and make a below average dps class viable". A higher dps class will always perform better for a player than a below average dps class and I believe players of all levels want to play a class with really good dps.

[Charge me Doctor]

Generally i agree with you on that sentiment.
But i already tackled this above: It's not just that Elemental is bad, Dps Shaman as a whole is bad.

If Elemental was the "dead" spec of Shaman, okay, shit happens, i'll go enhance, but enhance is overall hardly better and that's kinda the dealbreaker for me, 2/3 of the Shaman class is not considered good for High level mythic raiding, this is a throwback to Vanilla where you have the choice between rerolling to a "proper dps" or go resto.

If two specs of a class are just shit, then the devs fucked up and this is not some scenario that only happens during those crazy expansion release times, that is groundhog day for any person that wants to dps but still play shaman.
Because the repetition of both Enhancement and Elemental being treated as "fringe" specs by a lot of mythic raiders is just disheartening, but the reputation is sadly well earned because ever since Wotlk (which was released a decade ago btw.) seeing those specs in good mythic guilds remained the exception rather than the rule.

Take this example to the Mage side, imagine if both Arcane and Frost remained trash compared to Fire since Wotlk, Mages would have jumped at Blizzards throat sooner or later.

As last sentence, it's not just the utility of Elemental that is debatable, the fact that Blizzard constantly tunes this spec dpswise *just* below average is quite strange, because that it what kills the spec usually.

That's not the case in current iteration of beta, i know that numbers weren't tuned yet, but if you remove obvious outliners like demo/destro warlock - elemental do comparable damage as others in M+ keys. They bring important utility if forms of stun, snare, hex, tremor, offhealing, lust, defensive cooldowns (yes i am aware that you have to chose between a dps cooldown and defensive cooldown for second run of 40% DR). And one most important thing i've noticed is that elemental does good AoE damage without popping their cooldowns. If i, as a fire mage, have to shit out PF and runes to keep up or outdamage an elemental - he just pops flame shock on cooldown, electrocutes tons of mobs and drops EQs, and when i'm all out of runes and PFs - he keeps going.

Again, numbers are subject to change, but from what i've seen in M+ it's kinda hard to outdamage good elemental who knows what he is doing at least as a mage, the only shot i get is when i have combustion available, since, apparently, it gives me bigger DPS boost than his elemental or ascension. If the damage output and group/raid performance are your concerns.

I don't believe that elementals and enhancement are frowned upon and deliberately avoided or told to spec resto in legion neither that they will be in bfa. I don't give a horses ass about top guilds honestly and their team compositions, simply because it's a guesswork why they pick certain classes, because it's their fucking job at this point to research everything and grab even 0,01% advantage, which isn't the case for everyone else. You know how you can actually bike 200km on a cheap ass bike, but professional cyclists will spend thousands of dollars to cut literally grams of weight off their bike for every little bit of an advantage?

Magi were jumping at blizzards throat every expansion, basically because there was only 1 "viable" spec (read: the one that does ~30% better than other mage specs) at various expansions (sometimes its fire, sometimes its frost, sometimes its arcane. Basically, you had "fire raid tier", "arcane raid tier", "frost raid tier", etc). It vividly remember conversations in my guild to force me to spec out of fire for ulduar, or i'll be replaced with destro, because they are the same but destro simply do more damage and can tank on Mimiron. I didn't. I simply love theme of fire mage and i stick to it regardless of its performance, and more often than not i do get raid spots and perform at at least decent levels.

So if you are concerned about being top DPS and getting into top mythic guilds - you shouldn't be stuck to one spec. Hell, you shouldn't be stuck to one character even. You simply play whatever is tuned (and requires less input to play properly, so you make less mistakes and are more versatile with what you do) the best for situation.

[Zeek Daniels]

Alot of butt hurt ele's out there. I have been raiding as ele from BC-Cata and in legion b/c i didnt play MoP or WoD so i cant speak to that. I really dont care what we ranked among the top tier of players who play classes at the highest level because honestly none of us are that. Most guilds I have been playing Ele in i am usually middle of the pack or top 5 in DPS. When i was in bottom tier guilds i was top dps when i was in top server guilds i was top 5 dps and when i played legion in a mythic raiding guild i was still depending on the fight outside of the top 5 for single target encounters and 1-3 dps in aoe fights.

So i dont know how BFA is going to go. But legion was pretty fun for me as ele. So i dont see the point in complaining when theres no raiding at launch in BFA and we dont know what changes will happen before then.

[Kralljin]

That's not the case in current iteration of beta, i know that numbers weren't tuned yet, but if you remove obvious outliners like demo/destro warlock - elemental do comparable damage as others in M+ keys. They bring important utility if forms of stun, snare, hex, tremor, offhealing

Number tuning on Beta has rarely gone in Elementals favour, see most recent expansions like WoD or MoP, and no, previous expansions like Cata or Wotlk weren't any better.
Numbers tuning as a standalone argument is a legit point, but once you put it into the context of other expansions, it just doesn't work.

And about offhealing...you are kidding me, right? Earth shield is just a drip on a hot rock, same goes for Healing Surge on the tank.

And one most important thing i've noticed is that elemental does good AoE damage without popping their cooldowns.

Just not the case on Beta.
Without Stormkeeper to kick off Maelstrom generation and get out an early Earthquake, my AoE sucks ass because you have to use like ~4-5 Cl's to get a single Earthquake out.
With SE and Stormkeeper, that's obviously a different story, but without any cooldowns my AoE Dps is very weak due low Maelstrom generation.

I don't believe that elementals and enhancement are frowned upon and deliberately avoided or told to spec resto in legion neither that they will be in bfa.

Then let me tell you something as a guy who has been in hardcore scene since Cata: They are.
They're not told to spec resto, they're asked to go Mage / Warlock or Rogue, because any smart raider sticks to their chosen roles and doesn't go criss cross unless your roster requires it.

simply because it's a guesswork why they pick certain classes, because it's their fucking job at this point to research everything and grab even 0,01% advantage

It's not guesswork why they pick certain classes, because if they did, Dps Shaman would actually show up.
And stop arguing like Dps Shaman is just 0,01% behind other classes, it's far more, minor differences are acceptable, but those aren't minor.

Magi were jumping at blizzards throat every expansion, basically because there was only 1 "viable" spec (read: the one that does ~30% better than other mage specs) at various expansions

It's not that high usually, the one assessment i agree with Blizzard on pures - other specs are just behind because people jump on the best one, therefore the other specs look much worse because no one is playing them.

So if you are concerned about being top DPS and getting into top mythic guilds - you shouldn't be stuck to one spec. Hell, you shouldn't be stuck to one character even. You simply play whatever is tuned (and requires less input to play properly, so you make less mistakes and are more versatile with what you do) the best for situation.

I'm not stuck to a single spec, i've said this above, i'm more than willing to go enhance if it actually turns out to be a really decent spec.

However, this argument of mythic raiders constantly playing "musical chairs" with their class is a myth, it only applies to Tanks and some degree, healers, but if you play a Mage, Rogue or Warlock, you are pretty safe from logging onto alts, at least one of the three specs turns out to be a topdog spec.

The only reason to have alts there was for split raids, rogues nor mages had to log onto an alt in a long time unless your roster lacked a certain class / spec that was next to mandatory for an encounter.

[Charge me Doctor]

And about offhealing...you are kidding me, right? Earth shield is just a drip on a hot rock, same goes for Healing Surge on the tank.

By offhealing i meant ancestral healing. Off course with, say, a druid healer who knew about incoming group damage and pre-hot everyone will handle everything without problem, but with a healing shaman or priest in group it's a significant boost, basically, a healing cooldown in the hands of dps player.

Just not the case on Beta.
Without Stormkeeper to kick off Maelstrom generation and get out an early Earthquake, my AoE sucks ass because you have to use like ~4-5 Cl's to get a single Earthquake out.
With SE and Stormkeeper, that's obviously a different story, but without any cooldowns my AoE Dps is very weak due low Maelstrom generation.

Well, can't add anything to that, but all elementals i had in my groups never had any troubles to do aoe damage consistently.

Then let me tell you something as a guy who has been in hardcore scene since Cata: They are.
They're not told to spec resto, they're asked to go Mage / Warlock or Rogue, because any smart raider sticks to their chosen roles and doesn't go criss cross unless your roster requires it.

Understandably, yes, hardcore players have to play the best performing spec and class and have multiple toons raid-ready. Complaining that your favorite class isn't the best class to play doesn't... fit hardcore player mentality to be honest.
Back in wotlk and cata i had 3 toons raid-ready and had to jump between healing, tanking and damage dealing depending on which boss we encounter. Then i just stopped caring about it and played my favorite class trying to push it as far as i can.

It's not guesswork why they pick certain classes, because if they did, Dps Shaman would actually show up.
And stop arguing like Dps Shaman is just 0,01% behind other classes, it's far more, minor differences are acceptable, but those aren't minor.

Yet both elemental and enhancement shamans are present on mythic raids, sitting right in the middle on average (remember that's implying that mythic raiders actually pick the best class for its job). You can look at antorus for example, they are right in the middle both parses-vice and DPS-vise.

I'm not stuck to a single spec, i've said this above, i'm more than willing to go enhance if it actually turns out to be a really decent spec.

However, this argument of mythic raiders constantly playing "musical chairs" with their class is a myth, it only applies to Tanks and some degree, healers, but if you play a Mage, Rogue or Warlock, you are pretty safe from logging onto alts, at least one of the three specs turns out to be a topdog spec.

The only reason to have alts there was for split raids, rogues nor mages had to log onto an alt in a long time unless your roster lacked a certain class / spec that was next to mandatory for an encounter.

That's not really a myth, it depends on a guild and a player - again, there are plenty of mythic guilds that get enhancement and elemental in their raids, and they perform at ±10% DPS depending on gear, skill, luck and encounter. Look at Garothi (for non-empowered artifacts 2 months ago, for example) - enhancement is on top, just above WW and rogues, look at Eonar - affliction being the best suited for this fight has huge lead, but next two specs? Balance and elemental. I didn't try to nitpick anything, i literally randomly clicked on two bosses on warcraftlogs and filtered them as mentioned above

And that's mythic raiding i'm talking about, in heroics classes and specs are virtually irrelevant, unless you have a shitty raid leader who is concerned about things he shouldn't be (right in the line with those who bench people based on legendaries in early expansion).

Seeing shaman being just fine gameplay-vise (unlike shadow priest for example) - i just don't understand people who say that world is literally falling apart for shamans in current and next expansion

- - - Updated - - -

Alot of butt hurt ele's out there. I have been raiding as ele from BC-Cata and in legion b/c i didnt play MoP or WoD so i cant speak to that. I really dont care what we ranked among the top tier of players who play classes at the highest level because honestly none of us are that. Most guilds I have been playing Ele in i am usually middle of the pack or top 5 in DPS. When i was in bottom tier guilds i was top dps when i was in top server guilds i was top 5 dps and when i played legion in a mythic raiding guild i was still depending on the fight outside of the top 5 for single target encounters and 1-3 dps in aoe fights.

So i dont know how BFA is going to go. But legion was pretty fun for me as ele. So i dont see the point in complaining when theres no raiding at launch in BFA and we dont know what changes will happen before then.

It's kinda revealing to see player like this in this thread, not being all doom&gloom about changes and having good experience with the spec the love, regardless of perceived by community opinions. Elemental looks quite solid gameplay-vice (unlike, say, shadow priest) and even if you aren't going to be #1 DPS regardless of encounter and gear you are still capable of having fun.

[Kralljin]

By offhealing i meant ancestral healing. Off course with, say, a druid healer who knew about incoming group damage and pre-hot everyone will handle everything without problem, but with a healing shaman or priest in group it's a significant boost, basically, a healing cooldown in the hands of dps player.

On an AoE Pack with Stormkeeper at the ready, yeah that could happen.
On St however, AG does not heal for a significant amount unless combined with Dps CD's.

Taking into account that you have to abandon Nature's guardian or Windrush totem, it's a situational pick at best.

Well, can't add anything to that, but all elementals i had in my groups never had any troubles to do aoe damage consistently.

I don't know, maybe other people need to step up their game?
Like really, whenever i played with people of whom i knew that they are good players, i only could compete due lucky Aftershock Procs, Stormkeeper or Storm Elemental, if none of the three happened, it was just horrible.

Complaining that your favorite class isn't the best class to play doesn't... fit hardcore player mentality to be honest.

It's more about the consistency of it happening, especially during expansion release.
Heck, i've mentioned it above, this "musical chair" thing doesn't apply to some classes.

If Mages or Rogues would get their turn to be shit then i wouldn't find myself complaining, but that's not happening.

Look at Garothi (for non-empowered artifacts 2 months ago, for example) - enhancement is on top

Too bad their supreme ST dps was more of an exception this expansion, Enhancement wasn't good in ToS or NH.
And still had massive issues on actually difficult bosses because of incoming damage.

I'll even concede that Antorus was by Dps Shaman standards a good tier for both specs, but NH and especially ToS? Fuck me, not even going down the road of previous tiers, because HFC still burns and now due the Lvb change looms ahead again.

look at Eonar

No i don't, trying to make a point by even citing this boss is a horrible idea and anyone who has played this encounter knows why.
Asshole retort, i know, but no one cares about Eonar.

[hungrytiger]

I don't know, maybe other people need to step up their game?
Like really, whenever i played with people of whom i knew that they are good players, i only could compete due lucky Aftershock Procs, Stormkeeper or Storm Elemental, if none of the three happened, it was just horrible.

There's no point arguing, I've finally deduced that this is just a mediocre fire mage who is salty about getting out dps'd on aoe by a class he's suppose to be better than... on beta. Nearly every counterpoint he has thrown out on this thread has been based on nothing but the fact that good players switch to what is best. If it was a one time thing where ele was just getting the short end of the stick that's one thing, but we are always irrelevant on anything but resto. Look at the last 10 tiers of world first kills and tell me how many elementals/enhance shaman there are.

All he can focus on in M+ is the fact that we have stuns and can kite while doing AoE damage. There are so many classes that do that better than shaman it's almost comical. We haven't carved a niche in M+ yet otherwise you'd have seen one at MDI, or even better yet there wouldn't be just 1 in the top 150, yet there's 20+ mages who lack the AoE stun this guy covets so much.

Slap on our additional 7%, I believe it was, nerf across all of our abilities, synapse shock is nerfed, high voltage was nerfed by 50%, flame shock still has a CD and now lava burst won't crit unless it's applied, flame shock duration is shorter than it was in WoD when flame shock also had a cooldown, making it empirically the worst version of FS we've seen thus far, and all of our previously unique abilities have been baked into other classes.

Blizzard either needs to make us competitive on the meters, allow hybrids to be hybrids and provide some sort of group utility, or give us something that shines in any facet of the game. Take raiding and PvE out of the picture for a second, GoW is gone and we are going to get absolutely slaughtered in PvP now especially with less LvB procs, snare totem is gone, SK is nerfed and there's not a better choice on that tier for PvP. And trust me, we weren't allstars in PvP in legion to begin with.

The one positive thing I have seen Blizzard do in the past few weeks is make Icefury relevant again. It got a pretty substantial buff and no longer spends maelstrom which are two very positive changes for that talent. Other than that I have a hard time seeing the logic behind any other changes made thus far.

Maybe if we had received a singular blue post on the shaman forums on blizzard's website we wouldn't be so salty, but alas, we are the only class that has been ignored by devs for years on their own website.

[Deleted]

Yet both elemental and enhancement shamans are present on mythic raids, sitting right in the middle on average (remember that's implying that mythic raiders actually pick the best class for its job). You can look at antorus for example, they are right in the middle both parses-vice and DPS-vise.

You're kidding right?
I am speaking for elemental ofc, not enhancement. Look at that:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../17#dataset=90

Elemental is the lowest spec overall, just slighty better than specs which the corresponding classes aren't playing anyway if serious, like arms, outlaw and bm (except ret pala maybe).

And that is WITH the over the top aoe fights like high command and hasabel where our aoe isn't really needed tbh. Other classes can aoe and single target just fine. Like lock, mages etc. Some classes who may have single target weaknesses as well(shadow, boomkin) shine on cleave fights (felhounds, coven). Where that cleave is actually needed!

Elementals? We just have aoe, great.

Every other fight with single target and some movement (Imonar, Garothi, Kingaroth, Varimathras, aggramar, argus --> so basically almost every other fight) we are almost at the last bottom place.

So no, elemental is not in the middle.

[Charge me Doctor]

So no, elemental is not in the middle.

It is in the middle, don't use empowered artifacts (and, probably, jump back couple of months), because they make all rankings irrelevant. Neither do use 90 percentile for mythic because you filter out way too many parses this way. Even when you go to your own link - elemental sits literally in the same spot as magi and hunters (minus BM)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

[Deleted]

It is in the middle, don't use empowered artifacts (and, probably, jump back couple of months), because they make all rankings irrelevant. Neither do use 90 percentile for mythic because you filter out way too many parses this way. Even when you go to your own link - elemental sits literally in the same spot as magi and hunters (minus BM)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

Aside from the point that the empowered weapons may skewer the statistics a bit, my point about the viability of elemental still stands:

AOE --> good/top
Single target --> lower middle
Single target with movement --> bottom
Cleave fights --> middle

So the apparent fact that elementals are in the middle is an illusion by outweighing important fights with lesser important "aoe bomb-fests".

The fights which are 'hard' and most guilds struggle with are not the AOE fights, but the other 2 categories.
And I also don't look at 75th percentile because in my book that is a bad representation of what a class is capable of doing. Even with 90th percentile there are more than enough parses to make a valuable comparison (literally thousands).

Can you imagine having a difficult mythic fight, in the future, where you need either:

- lots of spread cleave (like coven)
- lots of single target sustained (for enrage timers)
- lots of single target burst (phase switches, appearing priority adds etc.)

and the raid leaders or officers say: "Yeah we definitely need more elementals for that."

...

Nope, me neither.

[Orwell7]

Do you guys realise that by crying all over the internet about elemental shamans you just "enforce" this view on the spec, so OTHERS who know NOTHING about elemental, will not invite you bc "ele sux"?

Go man up and find a way. Reroll, quit, or grow some balls.
I know a few top-tier ele shamans who slap fotm rerollers into the ground. In every fight except council ones.

[Deleted]

I never explicitely stated that elemental too bad for most of the content. You can go a long way with gear optimization and skill.
I am also performing well in raids and really well in m+ compared to other ppl.

But everything we are talking about here involves difficult mythic encounters, not m+ 15 oder heroic raids.

And if you look at it black and white, a lot of other classes with the same gear and skill will outperform you, simple as that. That has nothing to do with crying.

Also, your top-tier ele shamans only slam rerollers who cannot play their class.

[Charge me Doctor]

Aside from the point that the empowered weapons may skewer the statistics a bit, my point about the viability of elemental still stands:

"a bit", yeah. A random proc that boosts your main stat by 1/3th - 1/4th isn't something i would consider "a bit".

So the apparent fact that elementals are in the middle is an illusion by outweighing important fights with lesser important "aoe bomb-fests".

It's not an illusion, they are in the middle, if you simply handwave fights where elemental is good - off course you are going to have skewered statistic.

And I also don't look at 75th percentile because in my book that is a bad representation of what a class is capable of doing. Even with 90th percentile there are more than enough parses to make a valuable comparison (literally thousands).

75th percentile gives you a somewhat real picture, 90th percentile is usually cherry picked fights with odds stacked in favor of X. There is no way to filter them out afaik, but by bringing up 75th percentile you simply "outweight" this fights with more regular ones or with ones where people are unlucky or make mistakes.

Can you imagine having a difficult mythic fight, in the future, where you need either:
- lots of spread cleave (like coven)
- lots of single target sustained (for enrage timers)
- lots of single target burst (phase switches, appearing priority adds etc.)

And can you imagine a difficult mythic fight, in the future, where you need either:

-lots of pre-determined-target-uncapped-AoE DPS (like abberations on Maloriak)
-lots of sustained AoE damage (like on Halfus Wyrmbreaker)
-lots of targets but with single-target priority damage (like on Xavius)

and the raid leaders or officers say: "Yeah we definitely need more arcane mages for that."


See how stupid this non-argument is? If you'll keep closing your eyes on strengths of elemental and ways to deliver them and be useful, but look only at what you can't do - you'd better simply reroll. And why are you that fixated on some raid leader wanting to stack elementals? It's the worst thing that can happen to your class - raid leaders wanting to fill the raid with it.

[s3ge]

It is in the middle, don't use empowered artifacts (and, probably, jump back couple of months), because they make all rankings irrelevant. Neither do use 90 percentile for mythic because you filter out way too many parses this way. Even when you go to your own link - elemental sits literally in the same spot as magi and hunters (minus BM)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

Good job posting a statistic that directly contradicts your "point". Mixing single target with aoe fight and then looking at the average dps of all fights combined adds absolutely nothing to this discussion. Ele is at the top of the dps charts at 2 bosses, in the middle at 1 and at the bottom at 7, yet their average is somehow middle of the pack. Does this seem right to you?

The current iteration of elemental is surprisingly complex and fun to play. Eles have a lot of choices when it comes to legendarys and talents and can basically play whatever they enjoy most.
Their problems are at the moment: Single target dmg, rng dependence due to earthshock and the irrelevance of the burst aoe niche in raids as well as in m+.

Of course all of the fun aspects of the spec will be gone with bfa, eles role is now to create a niche for other classes so that mages and locks can feel better about themselves.

[Deleted]

"a bit", yeah. A random proc that boosts your main stat by 1/3th - 1/4th isn't something i would consider "a bit".

Yeah, and? The other classes have this RNG factor too. And still the positions haven't shifted so I don't see what your point is here.

It's not an illusion, they are in the middle, if you simply handwave fights where elemental is good - off course you are going to have skewered statistic.

I don't know why you ignored my explanation about where ele is good and where it isn't. Maybe because you don't have a counter argument for it?
This is not an opinion or my imagination or illusion. Elementals are bad at cleave and single target fights, compared to a most other classes and specs! I didn't pull that fact outta my ass.

Like s3ge said, you can't say Ele is middle of the pack when we are at the near bottom at 70% of the fights.

75th percentile gives you a somewhat real picture, 90th percentile is usually cherry picked fights with odds stacked in favor of X. There is no way to filter them out afaik, but by bringing up 75th percentile you simply "outweight" this fights with more regular ones or with ones where people are unlucky or make mistakes.

Again, and this is the observation and opinion of any remotely competitive guild, if you finish a fight with below 80th percentile you were either undergeared, dead or bad.
This wouldn't be a matter of luck or stacking anything.
Running for top Rankings 95+ is another thing which needs cheesing of tactics (e.g. letting just one guy aoe the whole mob group) or good luck and execution. I think I can speak from experience. The last time I was really competitive was in Blackrock Foundry and I was one of the top 10 ele shamans in the world (place 8 Râgnar):

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...spec=Elemental

It's not like I WANT elemental to be bad. I have played one for over 10 years and I would like nothing more for it to be a really solid, competitive spec.

And can you imagine a difficult mythic fight, in the future, where you need either:

-lots of pre-determined-target-uncapped-AoE DPS (like abberations on Maloriak)
-lots of sustained AoE damage (like on Halfus Wyrmbreaker)
-lots of targets but with single-target priority damage (like on Xavius)

You know that those situations are much rarer than the ones I listed. Sure, you have the obligatory aoe encounter like Mistress, harjatan, hasabel and so on. But those are maybe 2 fights per Tier and almost all the time pretty early boss fights (not like aggramar, Fallen Avatar, Coven etc.)

[NeximEU]

While I haven't played all casters in BFA, I've now tested elemental, shadow and balance, and there definitely seems to be something off with the former two. Just talking about DPS, how the rotation and spells feels, and talents here.

Balance druid has logical rotations or priorities, that shift in what feels like a natural way, better talent options than the other two (although not perfect by any means), and simply feels like playing a complete well thought out spec.

Shadow priest feels like it has gone 3 steps in a 12 step program. The first step is admitting you were an alcoholic... erm, the devs admitting there was a problem with the spec in a wide variety of situations. Then taken the first step towards solving the problems by breaking the spec down, but got stuck well short in the building up department. The direction is the correct one, but the spec is very very very far away from complete. The central mechanic of void form might as well be taken out completely as its benefits simply aren't there and the entire mechanic feels useless, the mastery is just flat damage to all your baseline spells, and as a result of numbers tweaking and the changed mastery it isn't any longer a DoT spec.
Shadow could get a numbers tweak to produce reasonable numbers, but it plays like shit. Balance just seems superior in every way.

Elemental could have interesting rotational-changing talents, elemental blast or icefury. But you can't take them, because you need to generate maelstrom. At the core of elementals problems seems to be the extreme reliance on mastery for resource generation, and pitiful resource generation without it. Mastery in every gear slot, and pigeon-holed into every maelstrom generating talent.

Take elemental blast and icefury, quite low resource generating abilities. Compare to balance druids, an entire level 15 tier with resource generating talents. The level 100 talent row also has resource generating talents, fury of elune generating 40 on a 1 min CD. Or compare to shadow priest with shadow crash, 20 resources at 20 seconds CD, or dark void for 30 at a 30 second CD. The high resource generation means you take those rotational-changing talents, spicing up the game-play some.

Or take the latest change to balance where wrath now splashes in an AOE when you got an eclipse proc, something which i can't recall anyone ever asking for. Elemental could on the other hand have used a reason to apply flame shocks and cast lava burst even on AOE, to spice the rotation and priorities up a bit.

For elemental i think the first thing to look into to get the spec to work would be how the resources are generated. Stacking mastery and spamming chain lightning is extremely stale. It works, but it's part of what pigeon-holes elemental into boss fights where you can cleave off adds. My opinion is that the spec would benefit a ton from an overhaul in resource generation. Lowering how reliant it is on mastery, but instead adding more resource generation to the baseline spells, talents like elemental blast, icefury, or even liquid magma totem. Maybe also to lava burst, or a bonus from lava surge procs, or even flame shock ticks.

Comparing to the two other specs it's not like elemental doesn't have abilities to use (everyone got pruned), just no reason to use most of them in way too many situations.

Also, the cooldown on flame shock is giving me a brain aneurysm, and both lava burst and mind blast should have two charges baseline.