Remove crushing/critical hits from bosses to make druid/paladin tanks viable

[Thimagryn]

Except that 1.12 is literally Vanilla. Yes, it's the tail end of Vanilla and yes it's just a snapshot of the larger whole - but it was a specific state that Vanilla existed in at some point.

For those of us who raided Naxx 60 (and many others I'm sure), 1.12 is easily considered the best version of Vanilla.

There is a very small niche of players who would have leveled from 1-60, ran MC, ZG and AQ all during 1.12, and regard that as the best patch of Vanilla. This is ultimately something pushed by Private Servers. I simply don't view this as an ideal version of Vanilla, and I think Classic can be better than this if it chooses to take any option that isn't roll-out patches as we had at the very beginning.

IMO, if we're going to have a static version of 'Vanilla', we may as well have one that is idealized and fully realized to its potential. Again, my unpopular opinion.

On a side note, I really wouldn't mind having transmogs or HD models for Classic. I'm not interested in playing a Private server 1.12. I want to revisit elements of Vanilla like the original world and the talent trees, but without enduring all the pain of playing a class that in retrospect played like shit while leveling because of mana issues or whatever oversights that existed back then. Others can argue that's how it was and should be, but hey, everyone has their own opinion. If that's how the game is played then I'm gonna roll the most OP class of the era rather than explore the game with a preferred class/spec. In short, play how Private Servers are played.

- - - Updated - - -

from in total, and hybrids aren't all on the bottom.

5% Druids

I did say 'amongst', didn't I? And then you showed me exactly what I was talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't stop it because it's the NA private server community that is largely going to be populating WoW Classic.

Sharing opinions does not equate to me pushing to stop anything. Like I said, I'm sharing my opinion. If NA private server community is the target audience and Blizz wants to appeal to them, then I'm fine with that. It doesn't mean I agree with the decision, nor does it mean I should agree with it.

Honestly, you're pretty much telling me everything I know. Is there something you want out of me other than my opinion?

[jackofwind]

There is a very small niche of players who would have leveled from 1-60, ran MC, ZG and AQ all during 1.12, and regard that as the best patch of Vanilla. This is ultimately something pushed by Private Servers. I simply don't view this as an ideal version of Vanilla, and I think Classic can be better than this if it chooses to take any option that isn't roll-out patches as we had at the very beginning.

IMO, if we're going to have a static version of 'Vanilla', we may as well have one that is idealized and fully realized to its potential. Again, my unpopular opinion.

On a side note, I really wouldn't mind having transmogs or HD models for Classic. I'm not interested in playing a Private server 1.12. I want to revisit elements of Vanilla like the original world and the talent trees, but without enduring all the pain of playing a class that in retrospect played like shit while leveling because of mana issues or whatever oversights that existed back then. Others can argue that's how it was and should be, but hey, everyone has their own opinion. If that's how the game is played then I'm gonna roll the most OP class of the era rather than explore the game with a preferred class/spec. In short, play how Private Servers are played.

- - - Updated - - -



I did say 'amongst', didn't I? And then you showed me exactly what I was talking about.

- - - Updated - - -



Sharing opinions does not equate to me pushing to stop anything. Like I said, I'm sharing my opinion. If NA private server community is the target audience and Blizz wants to appeal to them, then I'm fine with that. It doesn't mean I agree with the decision, nor does it mean I should agree with it.

Honestly, you're pretty much telling me everything I know. Is there something you want out of me other than my opinion?

Yeah but "amongst" is meaningless, which is my point. Any one of the classes that isn't Mage/Rogue/Warrior is "amongst" the lowest played classes. It's a completely meaningless distinction because the truth is that they're nearly all equally represented.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, you're pretty much telling me everything I know. Is there something you want out of me other than my opinion?

I want to point out to others in this thread that some of the things you're saying are either patently untrue or deliberately misleading.

- - - Updated - - -

There is a very small niche of players who would have leveled from 1-60, ran MC, ZG and AQ all during 1.12, and regard that as the best patch of Vanilla.

This is just baseless assumption on your part yet you're stating it as if it's fact. There is no "small niche" that you can point to, you're just working off the assumption that people who played and raided in the prior patches will agree with you and not think that 1.12 is the ideal iteration of the game.

You're saying these things as if they're objectively true, but they're nothing but your own speculations. Your opinion about the original playerbase of Vanilla WoW isn't fact, and the things that you're purporting to be true simply aren't.

[Turaska]

If you want Classic, accept it as it was or don't bother playing on it.

[Thimagryn]

Yeah but "amongst" is meaningless, which is my point. Any one of the classes that isn't Mage/Rogue/Warrior is "amongst" the lowest played classes. It's a completely meaningless distinction because the truth is that they're nearly all equally represented.

- - - Updated - - -



I want to point out to others in this thread that some of the things you're saying are either patently untrue or deliberately misleading.

- - - Updated - - -



This is just baseless assumption on your part yet you're stating it as if it's fact. There is no "small niche" that you can point to, you're just working off the assumption that people who played and raided in the prior patches will agree with you and not think that 1.12 is the ideal iteration of the game.

You're saying these things as if they're objectively true, but they're nothing but your own speculations. Your opinion about the original playerbase of Vanilla WoW isn't fact, and the things that you're purporting to be true simply aren't.

Unless I put IMO in front of every sentence I say, thwre ia no way you can read all my statements as the subjective points they are meant to be. In the end it doesnt matter because no one will argue for 1.07 despite there being a vocal crowd wanting 1.07 here before. There is no one who will champion a cause for rolling patches. Even if there were, you would likely tell them the same thing that you are telling me here, which is basically that more people like 1.12 and this is what vanilla should be.

right?

[jackofwind]

Unless I put IMO in front of every sentence I say, thwre ia no way you can read all my statements as the subjective points they are meant to be. In the end it doesnt matter because no one will argue for 1.07 despite there being a vocal crowd wanting 1.07 here before. There is no one who will champion a cause for rolling patches. Even if there were, you would likely tell them the same thing that you are telling me here, which is basically that more people like 1.12 and this is what vanilla should be.

right?

No, I don't have a strong opinion about what it should be, just what my personal favorite iteration is. Patch 1.12 works for what Blizzard is trying to do - accessible classes for all in their best, previously extant, states while still giving an accurate snapshot of a specific time in Vanilla's lifespan. I imagine they see 1.12 as the culmination of all their class tuning and reworking and therefore the best version of Vanilla.

[Thimagryn]

No, I don't have a strong opinion about what it should be, just what my personal favorite iteration is. Patch 1.12 works for what Blizzard is trying to do - accessible classes for all in their best, previously extant, states while still giving an accurate snapshot of a specific time in Vanilla's lifespan. I imagine they see 1.12 as the culmination of all their class tuning and reworking and therefore the best version of Vanilla.

And you are using your own bias to create a shield for which you are deflecting any other opinion against 1.12. Again, no where do I state its a bad or non ideal patch, only that I dont agree with it and have my reasons not to. It doesnt mean I am out to stop or change anything.

But hey if you like 1.12, all the power to you. I am not wrong in saying that 1.12 adopters in 2005 are niche, because the math doesnt work out if the majority of players who love 1.12 happened to do ALL content starting from 1.12. That is only something I have observed being the norm based on people having played on private servers with that as a starting patch. The collective decision doesnt come from preserving Vanilla as it was in 2004. Thats not a dishonest statement.

[Deleted]

On a side note, I really wouldn't mind having transmogs or HD models for Classic. I'm not interested in playing a Private server 1.12. I want to revisit elements of Vanilla like the original world and the talent trees, but without enduring all the pain of playing a class that in retrospect played like shit while leveling because of mana issues or whatever oversights that existed back then. Others can argue that's how it was and should be, but hey, everyone has their own opinion. If that's how the game is played then I'm gonna roll the most OP class of the era rather than explore the game with a preferred class/spec. In short, play how Private Servers are played.

So you want to play vanilla content with bfa gameplay? I think most vanilla players would rather play BFA content with vanilla gameplay.

[Thimagryn]

So you want to play vanilla content with bfa gameplay? I think most vanilla players would rather play BFA content with vanilla gameplay.

If you want to project BFA onto me then feel free. Remember, I didnt say it, you did. If you want a discussion, then feel free to listen first.

[Deleted]

If you want to project BFA onto me then feel free. Remember, I didnt say it, you did. If you want a discussion, then feel free to listen first.

The thing is that people don't trust blizzard doing their own remake of vanilla, because if you think about it, if they make all improvements they think makes the game better, we should end up with BFA. So everyone picks the patch they think was the best and in this case it's usually 1.12. It's more fair for hybrids and classes overall play a lot better than in earlier patches but without going too far(TBC).

I don't think there is nothing wrong with BFA and I'm waiting it more than classic, but when classic comes I want to play the gameplay it had because tbh I think vanilla content is quite shit. I really don't want to play BFA 2.0 with vanilla content, sounds terrible.

edit: I'm of course a bit too harsh. I think legion/bfa content is better but I like how vanilla classes and game overall plays out. E.g how classes work, grinding dungeons for certain items.. In legion you do all kind of random content and hope to get lucky with RNG(titanforging,m+ chest,legendaries... etc) and it's frustrating to me.

[jackofwind]

And you are using your own bias to create a shield for which you are deflecting any other opinion against 1.12. Again, no where do I state its a bad or non ideal patch, only that I dont agree with it and have my reasons not to. It doesnt mean I am out to stop or change anything.

But hey if you like 1.12, all the power to you. I am not wrong in saying that 1.12 adopters in 2005 are niche, because the math doesnt work out if the majority of players who love 1.12 happened to do ALL content starting from 1.12. That is only something I have observed being the norm based on people having played on private servers with that as a starting patch. The collective decision doesnt come from preserving Vanilla as it was in 2004. Thats not a dishonest statement.

You don't have to have done all content in 1.12 to think that 1.12 is the best patch, if that's what you think. That's how you're being dishonest. I didn't do MC, ZG, BWL or AQ in 1.12, I did them at release when they came live in their respective patches. I think progressive patching for WoW Classic would be great. I just also see why Blizz likely won't do that, largely because of the very poor class balance (especially itemization for casters in early patches.)

I'm not deflecting against arguments for patches other than 1.12 - by all means people can wish for other patches. What I'm doing is presenting why Blizz may think 1.12 is the best patch, and that I personally think that it's objectively the patch with the best class balance.

I haven't presented anything as fact that is patently untrue, unlike you in this thread with your silly "hybrids are in the least played 6/8 classes so they must need fixing".

[Thimagryn]

You don't have to have done all content in 1.12 to think that 1.12 is the best patch, if that's what you think. That's how you're being dishonest. I didn't do MC, ZG, BWL or AQ in 1.12, I did them at release when they came live in their respective patches. I think progressive patching for WoW Classic would be great. I just also see why Blizz likely won't do that, largely because of the very poor class balance (especially itemization for casters in early patches.)

I'm not deflecting against arguments for patches other than 1.12 - by all means people can wish for other patches. What I'm doing is presenting why Blizz may think 1.12 is the best patch, and that I personally think that it's objectively the patch with the best class balance.

I haven't presented anything as fact that is patently untrue, unlike you in this thread with your silly "hybrids are in the least played 6/8 classes so they must need fixing".

Nothing is broken when everything is broken and its what is socially acceptable for Vanilla. To ask for any improvement is to ask for change. If that is too much to ask then simply disagree and move on, but dont pretend anything more is being said.

If my opinion were to fix all hybrids because they are least played (which its not, but lets just say it is since you already think so) then what is your problem with accepting that opinion and moving on? You arent making any points that are unknown here. We are well aware of what Blizz is choosing and why. That most people accept it doesnt mean everyone does. If you cant live with that then you can keep telling me how my opinion is wrong and I will be right here telling you to deal with it.

[kaintk]

"models are slightly different...LOL LET'S COMPLETELY CHANGE CLASS BALANCE TOO!"

Nice bait.

you are stupid or what ?
changing modele in vanilla is one step to change others thing too, you really thing that blizzard will not make others patch after the 1.12 lol ? they will do what would happened if there was never expansion to come out, they will patch vanilla to balance the class and repair all bugs and exploit there was left

stop making a monkey of yourself and think before writing anything, man.

[Healasouhait]

you are stupid or what ?
changing modele in vanilla is one step to change others thing too, you really thing that blizzard will not make others patch after the 1.12 lol ? they will do what would happened if there was never expansion to come out, they will patch vanilla to balance the class and repair all bugs and exploit there was left

stop making a monkey of yourself and think before writing anything, man.

Aside from your agressive ton, care to elaborate your "exploit there was left" ? You really think they will release new content?

[Cov]

As someone who actually tanked stuff with a druid in vanilla (zul, aq20, bwl, first half of AQ40) I remember a lot of heated discussions about crits and crushings. Its true that I had to take all of the 5.6% crits and 15% (or was it 25%?) crushings. But I always said 'crits on me do less damage than crushings on your warrior', and I could back it up with combat logs. Warrior were able to be immune to crushing blows during their shield block, but I've never seen a warrior who didn't get crushings, often around the 3-5% mark when analysing the log files. (there were always gaps in the shield block uptime... maybe I've never tanked alongside an amazing 'never-missed-a-cd' warrior tank)

Main problem for the druid tanks was the very limited item availability and the specific need to be a viable raid tank. iirc there were only two trinkets with armor on them (and they made for a big chunk of your armor): one needed enchanting as proffession, the other was some quest-item around level 50, where probably everybody took the other option. So a druid couldn't just try to play as a tank, but you had to set your mind around level 50 during leveling and have to go through the hassle to bring enchanting to near max. Add a epic world drop as your only real defensive weapon option and some blue diremaul leather that only was replaced in AQ20 .. there were only very few pieces interesting to loot in raids.
So I'd say the druid was a viable tank in vanilla, but only for a very small portion of the raids. e.g. you needed a druid dedicated from the start to the tanking idea, and an open minded raid that wasn't questioning the tank all the time.

In 5man it was great to have a 3 target swipe, aoe threat hooray!

With all the knowledge of today coming back to classic, I'd assume it would be much easier as druid to progress tank raids, it's easier to analyse log files, it is more likely someone start leveling a druid to become a tank knows how the damage done calculation works in regard of armor.

[anon5123]

(there were always gaps in the shield block uptime... maybe I've never tanked alongside an amazing 'never-missed-a-cd' warrior tank)

Shield Block only lasts for 2 blocks, then it disappears. That's likely what you are seeing.

It is impossible to have 100% uptime on the Shield Block buff unless you aren't taking damage.

Add a epic world drop as your only real defensive weapon option

Unyielding Maul from DM N has roughly the same stats.

http://classicdb.ch/?item=18531

Warden Staff has only +10 armor and +2 defense in comparison...not worth the 300g+ pricetag, IMO.

[anon5123]

it was dumb as fuck to make the only tanks warriors.

Yes, it was dumb, but that's how vanilla was. If you want other tanks to be raid-viable, go play TBC and beyond.

it gives people more perspective instead of shutting them down.

You're getting "shut down" because you're suggesting changes that are completely un-blizzlike for vanilla.

Small QoL things like adding sparkles to quest items or making available quests show up on minimap? Sure, that doesn't really impact gameplay very much at all. But full blown changes to classes and class balance, no, go play TBC and beyond.

[Thimagryn]

You're getting "shut down" because you're suggesting changes that are completely un-blizzlike for vanilla.

Small QoL things like adding sparkles to quest items or making available quests show up on minimap? Sure, that doesn't really impact gameplay very much at all. But full blown changes to classes and class balance, no, go play TBC and beyond.

It's kind of weird that you're using such a broad and ambiguous definition.

How do you define what is a blizzlike change and what is an un-blizzlike change? In both examples, you are impacting the gameplay. You infer that the former change is not 'very much at all', but that is a subjective matter. If you don't raid, then raid tanking changes will never affect you. If you quest a lot, then sparkles will affect you greatly. Blizzlike means changes that affect class balance then?

Would you consider Blizzard choosing 1.12 blizzlike? Compared to rolling out patches from 1.00 -> 1.12? Arguably a hybrid is way more viable in 1.12 than it ever was in 1.04, so isn't Blizzard messing with the class balance for Molten Core?

[Arawrabearialis]

The idea that Druids were unviable is complete bs. I raided as a Druid tank in vanilla, it was completely viable after patch 1.8. You will not use tier gear, you will not be uncrittable and you will take crushings, BUT Druids had a HUGE amount of armor and high health pools. Warden Staff (epic boe), Cloak of Warding (crafted), def ring out of MC, and a whole lot of what most people considered "Rogue gear" and you could tank all but a couple bosses just as well as your average Warrior. The biggest argument I got in vanilla about why I shouldn't be tanking wasn't because people didn't think I could, but because I was taking the "Warrior's job" and "If you can heal, you should heal."

[Deleted]

Block doesn't prevent crushing blows; Defense stat does.

Wrong. It's only Shield Block (or having miss+parry+dodge+block above 100%) that can prevent crushing blows. In the same way it can prevent crits.

Defense stat reduces your chance to be crit, increase your chance to be missed, and increases your chance to parry/dodge/block.

Considering that warriors can have Shield Block active ~100% of the time ... they don't even need defense rating to be crit immune.

[anon5123]

Considering that warriors can have Shield Block active ~100% of the time

No? Shield Block has a 6 second CD and only blocks twice. There are no raid bosses with swing timers slower than 3 seconds. Most are around 1.5 - 2 seconds.

second, My argument stand that it was dumb as fuck to create a protection spec for paladin that can't tank. This is worth shitting on blizzard on for.

nor I even want to play a piece of shit garbage vanilla experience with lots of bugs and unbalanced classes.

"ree ree vanilla was shit!"

okay, why are you here

All I'm saying is that you allow people to discuss what they want and if you disagree with them you politely do so instead of shitting on every suggestive post.

We're sick of seeing threads/posts begging for major changes to class balance. It's fucking annoying. That's why these people get "shit on", because we've been asking for vanilla servers for a decade, and now that we're finally getting one, a bunch of shitters are coming in crying and demanding big changes to it. No, fuck off, go play TBC and beyond. Stop suggesting all these massive changes to the game. The game is not being "changed", it is being brought back as a preservation project. If you want your "class balance changes", go play TBC.

You can only "politely disagree" with the same crap so many times before it gets fucking annoying.