Why BFA class design is a good thing

[sam86]

I don't think there is a new player, if blizz is ignoring reality, wow now is mainly on ppl who playing it, or used to play it and return every now and then, which is the overwhelming majority
I didn't meet a single 'new' player in legion, the 'newest' one was someone who stopped after Cata, and i'm pretty sure that the 'new' players don't even think of mmo anymore, but they used to moba, then now they go to battle royal, and who knows what will be next hot game genre

And while I liked legion, I still feel disgust that my taskbar had more spells during Wrath than in Legion, situational flavor spells are what make the game RPG, why remove them ? Why remove mind sooth for example, why remove quivers that can be shown on character ?
And why are emotes on gcd !

[Zyky]

I'm just going to stop reading after the second paragraph, no logs = fake.

[sam86]

And what situations and what options would you sir be refering to? Enlighten me.

raid in TBC specially and u'll know them

[Zyky]

well its more like 100k that participate, but it's still a small percentage. I'd say at peak legion was 8mil around Jan when antorus was new. Regardless the game should be based around mythic. Why cause that 100k won't play if there isn't some hardcore gameplay. Most people in this game are casual, you should never tune the game for casuals, you give them options like lfr, pet battles, etc.

You actually are delusional if you think Legion hit 8m active subs in the later half of the expansion.

[Rendark]

Good job, you just proved your entire post (as short and meaningful as it was) is utterly pointless and silly.

But I'm right tho.

[Wildpantz]

Iagree something needs to happen ive tried countless times to get friend's to play who play games at a high lvl. Is this the right way? Who knows.
Its clear alot of people here don't have alpha/beta some speccs feel slow but alot of them are very fun. Losing leggoos and weapon and tiers at the same time is rough BUT we were told before that leggos and weapon would go.
Now tier sets i agree should go cause it made it harder for people due to elitist assholes. I am a player who does 1 carry per week atleast m+ or raid it so rewarding ! Being praised for healing or tanking a guild normal run and helping them clear it is awesome.
There so many different skill lvls in this game which alot of people don't understand will this be the right way we will see BUT bfa is not the worst ever so many have short memories.

[Shinrael]

I don't think there is a new player, if blizz is ignoring reality, wow now is mainly on ppl who playing it, or used to play it and return every now and then, which is the overwhelming majority
I didn't meet a single 'new' player in legion, the 'newest' one was someone who stopped after Cata, and i'm pretty sure that the 'new' players don't even think of mmo anymore, but they used to moba, then now they go to battle royal, and who knows what will be next hot game genre

And while I liked legion, I still feel disgust that my taskbar had more spells during Wrath than in Legion, situational flavor spells are what make the game RPG, why remove them ? Why remove mind sooth for example, why remove quivers that can be shown on character ?
And why are emotes on gcd !

Oh, YOU haven't met a new player? What a great argument! But let me give you an example still - my friend who has been hating on WoW for 8 years finally decided to give the game a try for BfA and started playing it the other day. He is in love with it now. And I keep meeting new players all the time. You not having met any is just your problem. Using that as an argument just embarasses you in front of everyone. Don't do that mate.

raid in TBC specially and u'll know them

Care to give an example, oh glorious TBC raider guy? I've been playing this game since the end of Vanilla (2006).

But I'm right tho.

Exactly! That's what we call a contradiction! Beautiful.

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This game doesn't have more than 4 million subs and that's being generous.



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I'd say the 2-4 mark is generous.


People don't seem to understand that the MMO genre is dying.

WoW was a pop culture "icon" 10 years ago. It isn't anymore.

How did you calculate those numbers and how did you decide that MMO genre is dying? Seems quite alive to me, more so than ever. Sorry.

[BlueRemedy]

I like compact kits, so I'm with you there OP

However, they did it wrong, they pruned down to filler abilities instead of unique and exciting loadouts, they also didn't offer any more choice in building your rotation.

So they had the right idea but they don't have enough talent to pull it off. Everything is boilerplate at best and horribly boring on the beta.

But even if they nailed the classes I wouldn't stay, as the content in beta is dogshit awful. The worst I've seen in WoW since Cataclysm. WoW is staffed with C-tier employees that have no passion for an old game made by other people.

[Shinrael]

Yeah that's why prominent community members and anyone with a brain wishes they would bring back "MOMENTS OF GLORY".

You know - when you had the utility to perform fun and amazing feats. Saving a wipe, 2v1ing someone in PvP through outplay.



I also love it how people like you LOVE comparing Class Design from 2018 to Class Design from 2005.

How about you do a fair comparison like.... MoP Class Design. You know, before the prune began.

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That's the problem isn't it - no one knows.

But looking at evidence through stat tracking sites, achievement tracking sites and all the dead realms. It's safe to say the game never recovered from WoD.


The kids of this generation don't play MMOs. They play MOBAs and Battle Royale games. The genre has stagnated - face facts.

Where are all the new AAA MMOs? All we get now is ported Korean MMOs that die within 1-2 years of release.

What is why?? What are you talking about in that first line of yours?

You still have the utility to perform fun and amazing feats. This will be the 3rd time I tell you but: Saying X is no more without giving a concrete example (especially having in mind that it actually still exists) makes you sound hilarious. Stop it. Stop embarassing yourself.
You wanna talk about MoP class design? I will never forget how I saved a wipe with my guild in SoO on heroic. Divine Shield as the last person standing and finishing off the boss. If this isn't moment of glory, then IDK what is. I also had many similar experiences while raiding Normal and Heroic Antorus (though I was pugging it so no guild to cheer for me on ventrillo or teamspeak). 2v1 someone in PvP You can't do that anymore? I just did the other day when I started doing arenas for the first time. It was so epic! In just 3 hours I had so many epic moments happen to me, learned so many things. Your point? Maybe you're the one who is falling behind, no?

And what would "People like me" refer to anyway? Of course I will refer to game design in 2004 and in 2005 and in 2006 and in 2007 and in 2008 and in 2009 and in 2010 and in 2011 and in 2012 and in 2013 and in 2014 and in 2015 and in 2016 and in 2017 and in 2018. That's the period during which the game has existed. If people like you are going to keep saying "the current wow is bad" then that means they are making a comparison with the old WoW. YOU are the ones, making that comparison. I am merely replying back. And while MoP is still my favourite expansion for its theme (the art, the music, the story) it cannot compare to Legion in terms of gameplay/combat. Been playing this game for 12 years and up until Legion I have always said to my friends (and online as well) that I play WoW solely for its art and aesthetics and do not really enjoy the gameplay. And for the first time, in Legion, was I able to say "Wow, I love the gameplay/combat".

If you don't know and nobody else knows either, then you simply don't make assumptions. It's downright stupid. It's delusional at best. Saying "WoW is dying because the subs are going low" or "The subs are declining because WoW is dying" or anything of the sort is just as stupid as the people you claimed to be delusional for thinking it has 8 m subs. Dead realms? Which has never ever happened before during an end-game patch where people are waiting for the new expansion to hit or just busy with graduating university or preparing for the Summer? Nooooo. "Looking at evidence"? What evidence? I meet new players of all ages, so apparently some of the new kids like MMOs too. Yes, Battle Royale and MOBA games are popular and they get lots of coverage on twitch and youtube. Doesn't mean MMOs are dead or unpopular. Just people playing MMOs are more inclined to focus on their games instead of watching others. Plus there is more stuff to do in an MMO. And there are sooo many new MMOs coming out (and some of them are looking solid like Ashes of Creation). Them failing flat on their faces has nothing to do with WoW. Other than I guess not being able to reach the high standards set by WoW.

Just because you are on the hater side doesn't make you any more cooler or correct. And that is why people like me have to interfere and teach you guys some proper manners. Come at me with facts and examples and logic and stop repeating the same old stupid shit without any basis or explanation, it's awkwardly embarassing.

[shaunika123]

Dumbing down class design and make the game less full of clutter and obsolete systems and menus are two different things. If anything, the combat is much more engaging than it has ever been. At this point you're just throwing random accusations without a basis (or with an imaginary basis).

but blizzard is doing the former, not the latter, if anything they're adding more clutter with azerite AND dumbing down classes at the same time. so yeah.

[Shinrael]

but blizzard is doing the former, not the latter, if anything they're adding more clutter with azerite AND dumbing down classes at the same time. so yeah.

How are they adding more clutter with Azerite when it's only passive traits? Do you even have any idea what you're saying?

And no, they are not dumbing down classes. They are making them actually fun to play for once. Like Fury, like Subtlety, like Fire, like Retri, like Arms, like Holy, like Havoc, like Vengeance, like Marksmanship, like BM, like Outlaw, like Demonology and so on. These classes have never been as much fun as they are now. And there's more.

[Pigglix]

I love when people pull numbers out of their arses and say stupid shit like: WoW is under 4M subs or w/e pipe dream they're having.

Its like they ignored what blizzard said when legion launched "Reached Wrath numbers" or ignore the blizzard calls thing or w/e they do each quarter.

I mean, sorry, they dont ignore, they just twist blizzard words into some "Oh that's just some PR talk bs lolol white knights cant face the facts lulz"

Now, speaking of facts, please, show me the facts that says WoW is equal or under 4M, and dont tell me to check some lolz stat website, if you cant come here and really show the numbers with said fact, then, well, guess its time for you to face the facts.

Also dead realms? Really? This talk of "dead realms" is going since idk..TBC? Its always the same speach: "Omg some realms are dead, wow/ mmo genre is dying"

[Naiattavain]

Sorry, but the new design has less depth and less freedom while also being slower thanks to GCD changes.

Not even Fox News could spin this into a positive change.

i'm thinking the game is gonna be worse than during legion. legion was very bad on class design. blizzed is sure pissed at their customers.

[Rendark]

Exactly! That's what we call a contradiction! Beautiful.

I'm going to take a guess and say we have the opposite opinion. Oh well i guess it doesn't matter. I won't be playing BfA so i hope you have fun with it.

[Tradu]

How are they adding more clutter with Azerite when it's only passive traits? Do you even have any idea what you're saying?

And no, they are not dumbing down classes. They are making them actually fun to play for once. Like Fury, like Subtlety, like Fire, like Retri, like Arms, like Holy, like Havoc, like Vengeance, like Marksmanship, like BM, like Outlaw, like Demonology and so on. These classes have never been as much fun as they are now. And there's more.

MoP/WoD Demo was more fun. BM has been the same spec for ages, Legion didn't really change anything. Outlaw was infinitely better when it was still Combat. Havoc and Vengeance only got added in Legion, and BfA is making both of them less fun. Not sure which Holy you mean, neither of them have changed much over the past many expansions. Retribution was more fun when it was about juggling a lot of rotational CDs(so a pretty long time ago, and with Enhancement being turned into almost entirely builder/spender in Legion, there aren't really any specs left that have a similar playstyle) rather than a fairly generic builder/spender.
And they are absolutely dumbing stuff down. Snapshotting got deleted from the game apart from a few minor exceptions, and that was something that added a huge amount of potential expression of skill.

[Rogalicus]

Its like they ignored what blizzard said when legion launched "Reached Wrath numbers"

Yeah, box sales that have been stable for the last 10 years.
WotLK: The set sold 2.8 million copies within the first 24 hours of availability.
Cataclysm sold more than 3.3 million copies in the first 24 hours of its release including digital presales, and 4.7 million copies in its first month of release.
On the October 4, 2012, Blizzard had announced that 2.7 million copies of Mists of Pandaria had been sold within the first week of its release
Warlords of Draenor sold over 3.3 million copies within the first 24 hours, and subscription numbers increased from 7.4 million[29] to over 10.5 million in November 2014.
Legion: The expansion set sold 3.3 million copies by its official release date of August 30, 2016, matching the previous expansion sales record held by Cataclysm
Now go look at how this lines up with subscription numbers. Spoiler alert: it doesn't.
About concrete numbers:
1) Subs have been on downward trend for the last eight years.
2) According to Wowprogress, mythic Argus was killed by 1437 guilds and that is 3.29% of all participating guilds making the overall number 43677 raiding guilds. Mythic Archimonde was killed by 2267 guilds (4.38%), so overall participation number was 51757 guilds. That's 16% drop in overall participation in easier tier and 40% drop in mythic kills.
3) PvP lost 50% of the population even in the first season, there are absolutely no reasons to think it got better later with dwindling playerbase.

Now I'd like to see your numbers.

[shaunika123]

How are they adding more clutter with Azerite when it's only passive traits? Do you even have any idea what you're saying?

And no, they are not dumbing down classes. They are making them actually fun to play for once. Like Fury, like Subtlety, like Fire, like Retri, like Arms, like Holy, like Havoc, like Vengeance, like Marksmanship, like BM, like Outlaw, like Demonology and so on. These classes have never been as much fun as they are now. And there's more.

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BFA sub is literally the worst it's been since wrath

it's a spammy 3 button spec with barely any thought.

there isnt a single sub main that actually likes the changes to sub in BFA, seriously not a single one.

[Shinrael]

MoP/WoD Demo was more fun. BM has been the same spec for ages, Legion didn't really change anything. Outlaw was infinitely better when it was still Combat. Havoc and Vengeance only got added in Legion, and BfA is making both of them less fun. Not sure which Holy you mean, neither of them have changed much over the past many expansions. Retribution was more fun when it was about juggling a lot of rotational CDs(so a pretty long time ago, and with Enhancement being turned into almost entirely builder/spender in Legion, there aren't really any specs left that have a similar playstyle) rather than a fairly generic builder/spender.
And they are absolutely dumbing stuff down. Snapshotting got deleted from the game apart from a few minor exceptions, and that was something that added a huge amount of potential expression of skill.

Nope ^^. BfA Demo is more fun. BM did change?? I mean, even if the changes are minor compared to other classes. Ultimately it's more fun now. Outlaw is so much better in Legion/BfA than ever before. Havoc and Vengeance got added in Legion which means they add up to Legion's credibility. Haven't tried Vengeance but Havoc is just as much fun if not better (now that Eye Beam will be part of the single target rotation). Holy Pala. They have changed a lot. All classes changed in Legion, a lot. BfA improves on that. Retribution has never been as good as it was in Legion. It's just godlike fun now. And it only gets better in BfA. Your point?

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BFA sub is literally the worst it's been since wrath

it's a spammy 3 button spec with barely any thought

Sorry. I absolutely love BfA's subtlety. Leveling a rogue on live atm for that specific reason. It's just so much fun.

[SirCowdog]

Call it an "Expansion"

Remove a bunch of stuff.

??????

PROFIT!!!!

[shaunika123]

2) According to Wowprogress, mythic Argus was killed by 1437 guilds and that is 3.29% of all participating guilds making the overall number 43677 raiding guilds. Mythic Archimonde was killed by 2267 guilds (4.38%), so overall participation number was 51757 guilds. That's 16% drop in overall participation in easier tier and 40% drop in mythic kills.

.

you realize that archimonde was up for like twice the length as argus right? ofc more guilds are gonna kill him

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Sorry. I absolutely love BfA's subtlety. Leveling a rogue on live atm for that specific reason. It's just so much fun.

k... okay you're trolling

I'M sorry, there's no other explanation.

unless you mean for world questing or some shit sub is horrible atm.

I've been maining the spec for almost 14 years, and it has never been as bad as it is in BFA if im being honest.