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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It reigned in to a certain degree in my opinion.

    If a spec is currently too squishy, you can buff HP, armor or Versatility, before they could do shit as your defense mostly relied on abilities, which the PvP team can't change due PvE.
    Because Legion has shown a decent representation of multiple specs across Arena and RBG.

    Templates were first and foremost to give the devs another tuning knob and level the playing field for undergeared players, both worked with varying degrees, thing is just that PvP representation dropped due other reasons.
    Specs being decently represented across Arena's and RBG's has nothing to do with templates that gear with resilience on it could have solved in the first place, balance has come from the versatility of talents/honor talents allowing you to deal with multiple different comps, thus where ordinarily some classes were just weak as they didn't have a certain ability to deal with against certain comps, switching talents allowed for that to happen and so we ended up with the scripted cooldown race we have now.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No because it's still wrong, you're not dying because there is too much damage happening, you die because your enemy stops every attempt at casting.
    Totally subjective to the comp you are playing/playing against, we kill people in a kidney shot quite regularly; are you saying that damage is not too high if we can kill someone inside a 5s stun? Again it boils down to too high damage through cooldowns because if you dont have an ability like pain sup to respond you just lose. Your example, while not wrong, is just one of many scenarios that can happen depending on the team you are facing. Cooldowns are far to powerful, so burst damage is by virtue too high, and so is burst healing. Tone those down and we can go back to more sustained damage with less Ghetto interupts as well reducing scripted play.

    I take it you run into a lot of windwalker/dk on ladder :P



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Good thing one of the most commonly raised critique points about WoW PvP was the fact that you had to suffer through the gearing phase until you had some chance of fighting back.
    PvP is not fun if you just get your teeth bashed in until you suffered through it.

    Secondly, i remember the BC times where everybody and their mother infested random bg's because S1/S2 Items were easier to grab than PvE Epics, therefore random bg's were flooded with green geared freshly dinged players, good times if you join a random bg and you know you lost solely because half of your team is horribly undergeared.
    Just dont agree with you, i enjoy the gearing system, having your teeth kicked in is part of playing an mmo, go play league if thats what you are after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, it's just that some people have a different mindset when it comes to PvP, because i have no issues with slower reward structure, but i prefer an even playing field when it comes to PvP.
    Even for what???? Random bgs? If you are serious about arena, it is even by the time you come to push rating because you are fully geared anyways, if not its not other ppls fault you didnt have the time to gear or could not be bothered.
    Last edited by Osanger; 2018-07-12 at 05:02 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    once again, you're overthinking it like the colleague art students.
    all you had to do to fix that was disable trinkets/legos in pvp and add resilience back.
    Feel free to take a look at various talents and template that are being heavily toned down via templates and ask yourself what these specs would do without those tools to reign in their damage.

    Now take a lot at specs that receive buffs via the template system, and you just want to solve that with a single stat that works equally for both parties?

    Blizzard has tried to make resilience work for over 10 years, every single expansion they came up with another solution to the Resilience system that now suddenly allows them to balance PvP, it never really worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Specs being decently represented across Arena's and RBG's has nothing to do with templates that gear with resilience on it could have solved in the first place
    Oh yeah, that has worked out fine during the last decade, right? That's why they constantly changed the system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Tone those down and we can go back to more sustained damage with less Ghetto interupts as well reducing scripted play.
    Question: Do you think Resilience will prevent that? Or the removal of templates?

    Because i said this quite a few times by now, if Blizzard had succeeded with Resilience and everyone is using PvP Gear, you basically have templates, except everyone has the same stats barring armor.
    Blizzards balance is by no means perfect, but blaming imbalance just on the template system is bogus.

    The issue with CD's is something that the PvP Team has no influence over, they have to balance PvP around what the class designers give them and they mainly concern themselves with PvE.
    CD's by itself aren't even that wrong, but balancing between endless dampening / mana fights and people dying within a kidney shot isn't that easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    I take it you run into a lot of windwalker/dk on ladder :P
    I think Blood elf DH's are worse there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Just dont agree with you, i enjoy the gearing system, having your teeth kicked in is part of playing an mmo, go play league if thats what you are after.


    Even for what???? Random bgs? If you are serious about arena, it is even by the time you come to push rating because you are fully geared anyways, if not its not other ppls fault you didnt have the time to gear or could not be bothered.
    I have enough time on my hand to play and still disagree on that, but i see we see simply have different views on the subject, to me PvP is about an equal fight with anyone.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2018-07-12 at 05:34 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Oh yeah, that has worked out fine during the last decade, right? That's why they constantly changed the system?
    They changed it in cata, because people who didn't collect it were whining about getting global'd out in the world or someone in instanced pvp who didnt have any was squishy. News flash pvp gear is good for pvp, who would have thought it. With the introduction of warmode and the option to opt out of world pvp there is no longer that issue and the grind for pvp gear is no way near what it used to be, fuck me they are throwing gear at people nowadays, literally by comparison. Templates take away any sort of char progression i.e if i want to run a haste heavy build or crit heavy thats my choice. With templates its just these are your stats so you play this way, which is again watering down the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Question: Do you think Resilience will make that happen?

    Because i said this quite a few times by now, if Blizzard had succeeded with Resilience and everyone is using PvP Gear, you basically have templates, except everyone has the same stats barring armor.
    Blizzards balance is by no means perfect, but blaming imbalance just on the template system is bogus.

    The issue with CD's is something that the PvP Team has no influence over, they have to balance PvP around what the class designers give them and they mainly concern themselves with PvE.
    CD's by itself aren't even that wrong, but balancing between endless dampening / mana fights and people dying within a kidney shot isn't that easy.
    No they do not, they have stats according to what the devs think they should have. Resilience gives you the effective hp needed for surviviability and allows you to chose whatever stats you want, so completely different from templates.

    PvP and PvE have separate coefficients now if the devs want to use them, this includes cooldowns for instance Crimson Vial only heals you for 15% of your max hp in instanced pvp compared to 30% normally. Same with Chaos bolt hitting for less in PvP, so no you are wrong, the pvp devs have a huge amount of knobs they can tune regarding damage. If they wanted they could have a separate pvp modifier for every single spell in the game, but thats a lot of work.

    You do realise that in todays arenas that endless dampening/mana fights are because of cooldowns? At low rating they cause you to lose extremely fast due to lack of skill/knowledge in efficient use and at high rating they draw out the games for ages because they are so many of them and you know the script on when to use them. Reduce their power you reduce both of those scenarios plain and simple.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I have enough time on my hand to play and still disagree on that, but i see we see simply have different views on the subject, to me PvP is about an equal fight with anyone.
    Fair enough, i would say for me competitive pvp is about an equal fight and the reason that its equal is everyone understands that you must gear your char before pushing rating, which is part of playing an MMO, not doing that is accepting that disadvantage for what it is. PvP like random battlegrounds are never balanced anyways so i do not think that a gearing power system that gives you a reward structure worth playing for and a feeling of char progression as well has having control over what stats you want is justifiably worth sacrificing in the name of players getting crushed because forwhatever reason they haven't geared up yet.

    After all, it is generally the people who are unhappy with a system who post in forums constantly about it, not people who enjoy it thus scewing the viewpoint, which is what i firmly believe happened after WOTLK.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    They changed it in cata, because people who didn't collect it were whining about getting global'd out in the world or someone in instanced pvp who didnt have any was squishy.
    Introduced it in BC.
    Buffed it numerous times in Wotlk because due PvE stuff, some spells could deal like up to 80% of someone's max hp.
    Introduced PvP Power in MoP in hope of forcing out PvE Gear.
    Introduced scaling Ilvl in WoD to make it once again "better".

    Up until MoP / WoD, PvE Gear infesting PvP was a massive issue and pretty much reached it's peak in Cata when people started to farm the Random Drop Trinkets from DS because they were OP (Vial of Shadows, Cunning of the Cruel, etc.).


    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    if i want to run a haste heavy build or crit heavy thats my choice. With templates its just these are your stats so you play this way, which is again watering down the game.
    I mentioned it earlier, a full haste vs. full crit build was like a 8% haste increase for me, what a big deal in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    No they do not, they have stats according to what the devs think they should have. Resilience gives you the effective hp needed for surviviability and allows you to chose whatever stats you want, so completely different from templates.
    To my knowledge, Resilience applied the same damage reduction to every class / spec.
    And that they've buffing / nerfing stats on PvP armor would be new to me.
    Second, you can only choose your stats to a certain degree at best, as everything was Vendor based and you could only choose like between 2 items per set and your Set being usually locked for you.

    Your *choice* was in reality rather limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    PvP and PvE have separate coefficients now if the devs want to use them, this includes cooldowns for instance Crimson Vial only heals you for 15% of your max hp in instanced pvp compared to 30% normally. Same with Chaos bolt hitting for less in PvP, so no you are wrong, the pvp devs have a huge amount of knobs they can tune regarding damage. If they wanted they could have a separate pvp modifier for every single spell in the game, but thats a lot of work.
    Which they do as well alongside the template system, but they can also just easily apply a flat Main stat nerf if they want to reduce the overall damage / healing output.

    They could also just nerf a few target abilities which are breaking the spec and hand out an overall buff primary stat as compensation, so your overall damage does not suffer as much.

    You just have a lot more flexibility there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    You do realise that in todays arenas that endless dampening/mana fights are because of cooldowns? At low rating they cause you to lose extremely fast due to lack of skill/knowledge in efficient use and at high rating they draw out the games for ages because they are so many of them and you know the script on when to use them. Reduce their power you reduce both of those scenarios plain and simple.
    Okay and now what? Has this anything to do with the topic at hand?
    I've established above that changing (or removing) cd's not an option as the PvP has to deal with what the Class designers give them, PvE wants CD's, PvP gets them as well, that's how it is.

    CD's would be there regardless of templates and resilience does not prevent those or reduces their power.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Introduced it in BC.
    Buffed it numerous times in Wotlk because due PvE stuff, some spells could deal like up to 80% of someone's max hp.
    Introduced PvP Power in MoP in hope of forcing out PvE Gear.
    Introduced scaling Ilvl in WoD to make it once again "better".

    Up until MoP / WoD, PvE Gear infesting PvP was a massive issue and pretty much reached it's peak in Cata when people started to farm the Random Drop Trinkets from DS because they were OP (Vial of Shadows, Cunning of the Cruel, etc.).
    Yep and all of the above happened because they did not have a way to separate pve gear and coefficients from pvp. Now they do and are able to pick and choose which trinkets function in pvp and no tier bonsues. Everyone wore some pve gear because of tier, i ran 2p T10 on my dk for the oblit damage. Not an issue anymore also could quite easily disable pve azerite bonuses in pvp and only allow pvp ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I mentioned it earlier, a full haste vs. full crit build was like a 8% haste increase for me, what a big deal in PvP.
    For you perhaps, but that subjective, for a frost mage it could mean the difference from reaching the shatter soft cap which can win you games or a 0.5 off of castable cc like poly or fear can be the difference in landing cc or not which can win/lose you games. Or how about just how your class feels 8% haste can be a world of difference to how a spec feels in terms of casting or the gcd. Or wanting to stack haste as a frost dk cause crit is useless because of killing machine. Its all very class dependant, the point is taking away that freedom of customisation
    and choice feels bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    To my knowledge, Resilience applied the same damage reduction to every class / spec.
    And that they've buffing / nerfing stats on PvP armor would be new to me.
    Second, you can only choose your stats to a certain degree at best, as everything was Vendor based and you could only choose like between 2 items per set and your Set being usually locked for you.

    Your *choice* was in reality rather limited.
    Key point here is you said WAS, that is the past, it does not have to be the future. On the pvp beta server there is every combo of gear i.e haste/mastery cri/haste etc. So you can pick and choose what gear you want to roll with. The problem is in BFA you will have to rely on RNG for that bit of gear as there is no vendor, something i find extremely frustrating and limiting. Anyways there is zero reason that from one class to the next to benefit more or less from resil if they need it, exactly the same way a fire mage gets more crit from the base value on gear than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Which they do as well alongside the template system, but they can also just easily apply a flat Main stat nerf if they want to reduce the overall damage / healing output.

    They could also just nerf a few target abilities which are breaking the spec and hand out an overall buff primary stat as compensation, so your overall damage does not suffer as much.

    You just have a lot more flexibility there.
    See that's the issue, you can still have all of that and still have gear matter by balancing around having a full set of pvp gear.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Okay and now what? Has this anything to do with the topic at hand?
    I've established above that changing (or removing) cd's not an option as the PvP has to deal with what the Class designers give them, PvE wants CD's, PvP gets them as well, that's how it is.

    CD's would be there regardless of templates and resilience does not prevent those or reduces their power.
    This has EVERYTHING to do with the topic at hand, one of the main reasons that templates have not really worked is bloody cooldowns being to powerful. I never once said to remove CD's of course that is not going to happen, but changing them is an option. They are no different to a spammable damage spell so they can be adjusted accordingly to reduce them in power for pvp and have zero effect on pve. They have already done this for some cooldowns such as crimson vial as i mentioned.

    For example frost mage icy veins is 30% haste so that must be balanced around the possibility of having 100% uptime on your target, so when its up you do insane damage but when its down your damage is kinda meh, so this leads to the system we have now of trading cooldowns and prolonging games for ages, seriously like 20mins i've been in some RMP mirrors for. Now take that 30% and reduced it to 15% in pvp only then that leaves room for buffs to sustained damage which is much easier to balance around, since you dont have to have over inflated DR through templates or resil to cope with the burst, so damage outside of cds is really low.

    The reason that as you said "but balancing between endless dampening / mana fights and people dying within a kidney shot isn't that easy." is because the current templates have to be tuned around such high burst damage due to the power of cooldowns, so when those cds are not up the templates are overtuned for normal damage so games just drag on for ages. Reduce the power of cooldowns and you reduce the need for that over tuning making it far easier to balance because more of the damage will come from sustained.
    Last edited by Osanger; 2018-07-12 at 08:28 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Yep and all of the above happened because they did not have a way to separate pve gear and coefficients from pvp.
    They did already back in Wotlk with Colossus Smash, they however did not commit further to this until later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Not an issue anymore also could quite easily disable pve azerite bonuses in pvp and only allow pvp ones.
    Educate yourself on the Azerite system.
    First off, most Azerite Traits aren't exactly impactful.

    Second, "PvP Azerite traits" are optional, every Azerite Gear has one "acquisition specific" slot where you have the option to pick a trait based on Zone you acquired it, for PvP, those traits are filled with "PvP traits", which are mostly just fancy ways of saying "proc chance to do more damage".

    So basically, on an Azerite piece, there is one potential "PvP Trait" if you acquired that piece via PvP and the rest are "PvE traits".

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    For you perhaps, but that subjective, for a frost mage it could mean the difference from reaching the shatter soft cap which can win you games or a 0.5 off of castable cc like poly or fear can be the difference in landing cc or not which can win/lose you games.
    8% Haste aren't .5 casttime reduction however, more like .08 depending on the cast.
    The games where this makes a difference are fringe at best, your Internet connection has a higher impact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    See that's the issue, you can still have all of that and still have gear matter by balancing around having a full set of pvp gear.
    You can, but i just don't see the point in it.
    Make PvP drop a decent Ilvl and you have the same effect without tinkering around Items, because they would have to code the mechanic that allows items to have stats based on the players class / spec.
    Next to it, you would have to solve how PvE items then work in PvP.

    Seriously, your ideas are basically "Template system but works off items", why not just use the template system as of now and have a proper reward structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    They are no different to a spammable damage spell so they can be adjusted accordingly to reduce them in power for pvp and have zero effect on pve. They have already done this for some cooldowns such as crimson vial as i mentioned.
    They could do that, i however still do not see why the Template system prevents them from doing that.
    Or is this somehow exclusive to each other?

    You're trying to solve issues via the wrong means, if you think CD's are the problem then tackle CD's, not the Template system, the template system does not prevent them from doing that.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    They did already back in Wotlk with Colossus Smash, they however did not commit further to this until later.



    Educate yourself on the Azerite system.
    First off, most Azerite Traits aren't exactly impactful.

    Second, "PvP Azerite traits" are optional, every Azerite Gear has one "acquisition specific" slot where you have the option to pick a trait based on Zone you acquired it, for PvP, those traits are filled with "PvP traits", which are mostly just fancy ways of saying "proc chance to do more damage".

    So basically, on an Azerite piece, there is one potential "PvP Trait" if you acquired that piece via PvP and the rest are "PvE traits".



    8% Haste aren't .5 casttime reduction however, more like .08 depending on the cast.
    The games where this makes a difference are fringe at best, your Internet connection has a higher impact.




    You can, but i just don't see the point in it.
    Make PvP drop a decent Ilvl and you have the same effect without tinkering around Items, because they would have to code the mechanic that allows items to have stats based on the players class / spec.
    Next to it, you would have to solve how PvE items then work in PvP.

    Seriously, your ideas are basically "Template system but works off items", why not just use the template system as of now and have a proper reward structure?



    They could do that, i however still do not see why the Template system prevents them from doing that.
    Or is this somehow exclusive to each other?

    You're trying to solve issues via the wrong means, if you think CD's are the problem then tackle CD's, not the Template system, the template system does not prevent them from doing that.
    You know what mate, you do you and i'll do me,

    You just don't get where im coming from and dont take this the wrong way, but i really do not feel that from your feedback and our discussion that you pvp at anywhere near a high level or rating in the competitive bracket. Namely because you continuously gloss over issues that every one in the actual pvp community has issues with, and choose to either ignore or present the good o'l pvp on and equal playing field, where we all know that after legion that is totally bulshit and has severely damaged the population.

    TLDR Templates do not work, and blizz has recognised that hence they there not going to be in BFA, so i'm done trying to explain it. Its not going forward in bfa, and i'm pretty pleased about it, and 100% pleased about pvp gear actually mattering again like 99.9999999% of the community.
    Last edited by Osanger; 2018-07-13 at 10:56 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    and 100% pleased about pvp gear actually mattering again like 99.9999999% of the community.
    PvP Gear does not matter, PvP Gear = PvE Gear.

    If a Guy with 390 Full Gear from Uldir shows up, he has objectively better gear even for PvP unless you also have 390 Gear, which is not very likely if the Reward structure yields similiar Ilvl as in Legion.

    There is no PvP Gear, the only possible difference that exists are these "PvP Traits" on Azerite Gear and and that's only a single trait (which is optional) per piece.

    There is no Resilience, no PvP Power, no Ilvl increase, no Template, Item with higher Ilvl => Usually better even for PvP.

    In other words, if the reward structure is as bad as in Legion, you're still better off gearing yourself via PvE for PvP.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2018-07-13 at 11:06 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    and 100% pleased about pvp gear actually mattering again like 99.9999999% of the community.
    lol

    my opinion = other people's opinion, because I say so.
    Last edited by Sencha; 2018-07-13 at 12:21 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    lol

    my opinion = other people's opinion, because I say so.
    Haven't spoken to anyone in the actual competitive pvp community that is not pleased about it, so not bothered about anyone else, or you pal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    PvP Gear does not matter, PvP Gear = PvE Gear.

    If a Guy with 390 Full Gear from Uldir shows up, he has objectively better gear even for PvP unless you also have 390 Gear, which is not very likely if the Reward structure yields similiar Ilvl as in Legion.

    There is no PvP Gear, the only possible difference that exists are these "PvP Traits" on Azerite Gear and and that's only a single trait (which is optional) per piece.

    There is no Resilience, no PvP Power, no Ilvl increase, no Template, Item with higher Ilvl => Usually better even for PvP.

    In other words, if the reward structure is as bad as in Legion, you're still better off gearing yourself via PvE for PvP.
    If people do not want to pve for gear tho, then they dont have to which is one of the main reasons so few ppl have dropped off the pvp map in legion, purely because the reward structure is crap. BFA it will be better, hopefully so those people will stay active and keep the population at a level where it does not affect the ladder so drastically as it has in legion.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    If people do not want to pve for gear tho
    Then they have to "git gud" rather quickly to get a high rating or play at disadvantage against people that also PvE.
    Those dedicated PvP'ers will love it, i'm sure, once those mythic raiders with their 390 weapons / trinkets show up and tear them a new asshole while they walk around with 360 sticks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    then they dont have to which is one of the main reasons so few ppl have dropped off the pvp map in legion, purely because the reward structure is crap.
    Not sure if i'm reading this correctly, but to me it sounds like you're saying that only a few people dropped PvP during legion.

  12. #72
    Hm, i'm also confused that you think you can get good pvp gear via pvp in bfa compared to legion, the rewards are pretty identical, as in useless compared similar activities in pve.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Then they have to "git gud" rather quickly to get a high rating or play at disadvantage against people that also PvE.
    Those dedicated PvP'ers will love it, i'm sure, once those mythic raiders with their 390 weapons / trinkets show up and tear them a new asshole while they walk around with 360 sticks.
    Not really the case this time around as the new bracket system will dictate what level of gear you will get more accurately. Before in legion the system was more linear and did not really reward appropriate ilvl gear for the time/skill invested. They are changing the reward to be more of a bell curve in relation to which bracket you are in i.e rival(1775-2100) you will get HC Raid Level gear, then when you get to duelist (2075 -2400) you will start to see mythic gear. This is good because it will probably peak out at 2350ish where everything you will be getting is mythic.

    Now to answer your question as to whether there will be mythic raiders on the ladder and whether they are going to have a gear advantage is a yes and no. I myself play 3v3 rated arena ~2250mmr and i raid on mythic with my guild, as well as doing max lvl M+ keys, so yes this system is good for me as i have a chance to double dip on mythic level rewards each week, but i would argue that i've earned that by my own merits in skill on the pvp side and being part of a mythic raid team which is the hardest endgame content pve wise on top of M+

    Now say i was shit at pvp but raided mythic, that falls into the bracket of what you are talking about in terms of large ilvl advantage. But you are stuck down in say the 1800 bracket, what would be the actual point of running a competitive 3v3 team when you have that gear other than just fun or a serious will to get better? If its just for shits and giggles those people are going to be very few and far between since they never have a chance at upgrading their gear as they will hit a brick wall as gear can only get you so far at higher rating. I would quite happily farm points off a 1800-1900 mmr team in mythic gear while my team was pushing cr wearing HC gear since the difference in ilvl is not that much and weapons cannot titanforge along with all abilities for melee classes now scale from attack power, so weapons are even less impactful.

    If your team has a serious will to get into rated pvp and improve then yes your gear will certainly give you a leg up to begin with, but like i said above you will hit a brick wall of your current teams skill cap that gear cannot carry you past. Also there is the fact that mythic will not release at the same time as the PvP Season does, so by the time you have farmed all that sweet mythic gear there will be plenty of people on the ladder with HC and above ilvl, and as i said before if they are at a decent rating of 2.1k or above you are going to get your ass handed to you even in mythic gear until you raise your level of play.

    Both of the above scenarios are actually good for the ladder as half of the issues atm is actual population due to the rewards structure not being accurate in relation to the time/skill invested.

    The only bracket i can see Mythic gear having any impact will maybe be 2v2, because you can farm mounts for wins from that bracket now, but thats fine, cause its only 2v2 which is not taken seriously anyways and is mainly used for fun, practicing and messing about.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Not sure if i'm reading this correctly, but to me it sounds like you're saying that only a few people dropped PvP during legion.
    Yep typo should have read "many".

    Quote Originally Posted by ilik2345 View Post
    Hm, i'm also confused that you think you can get good pvp gear via pvp in bfa compared to legion, the rewards are pretty identical, as in useless compared similar activities in pve.
    Incorrect see above or this for reference if you want the full blue explanation https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...p-tier-system/
    Last edited by Osanger; 2018-07-17 at 04:13 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Not really the case this time around as the new bracket system will dictate what level of gear you will get more accurately. Before in legion the system was more linear and did not really reward appropriate ilvl gear for the time/skill invested. They are changing the reward to be more of a bell curve in relation to which bracket you are in i.e rival(1775-2100) you will get HC Raid Level gear, then when you get to duelist (2075 -2400) you will start to see mythic gear.
    What Blizzard says and what actually is being implemented into the game are two different things.

    Aside from that, you fail to see the problem: awarding Heroic Ilvl for something akin to 2k is already rather difficult for most people, unless they turn Arena into RBG 2.0 and you don't lose any points until like 1,8k.

    I've said it above, i get 950 as weekly reward for 2k, that's 5 ilvl over regular heroic, so that's not too different and Antorus heroic is way easier and less time consuming than rated PvP let alone reaching 2k in 3v3.
    Unless PvE will be as difficult to Pug as in expansions like BC or Cata, PvE will still be the easier road to acquire Ilvl, therefore a lot of people will have no incentive to do PvP except for PvP itself.

    If you're looking for ways to increase the PvP population, go over the Ilvl, it's that simple, it worked in BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Now say i was shit at pvp but raided mythic, that falls into the bracket of what you are talking about in terms of large ilvl advantage. But you are stuck down in say the 1800 bracket
    Taking into account that you have like a 20+ Ilvl difference, you're going to notice that one.

    But seriously doubt that's worth discussing to be honest, without any sort of template (yes i said it) BfA PvP will die because of utter imbalance, you can't fix everything by just secretly making abilities less / more damage in PvP.

    I said in my very first post, BfA currently runs under the Vanilla system and that is not a good one.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Aside from that, you fail to see the problem: awarding Heroic Ilvl for something akin to 2k is already rather difficult for most people, unless they turn Arena into RBG 2.0 and you don't lose any points until like 1,8k.
    1775 is the cutoff for rival so you will start getting HC gear as soon as you pass that rating. Its a gate like 1800 was for your shoulders, which is way more accessible than 2k for those who are serious about rated pvp. You overestimate how much Mythic gear will be available to those outside of PvP as the season will start before Mythic raiding does, so i really don't think the ladder will be full of thousands of M+ people looking to crush lower geared players other than those serious about PvP who are more interested in climbing.

    As i said, if they do that content, then they are entitled to that extra gear and those on the ladder who just PvP will have to accept that, but its not going to skew rating that much at all since the weekly chest from M+ will also not give mythic raid gear until the raid opens as well.

    You know fine well they will never go over the ilvl, as much as they want to grow pvp, its still a pve game at its core and far far more people would just whine about "pvp being mandatory" because the gear is so good. I'd love it if they did, as i love both sides of the game but its a much easier problem to solve by flipping it to the pvp only players detriment, since they are the heavy minority.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I said in my very first post, BfA currently runs under the Vanilla system and that is not a good one.
    Hardly, there is shit loads of things that are way different than vanilla was, i.e separate pvp modifiers for starters, weapons now are basically stat sticks (a major difference if you remember 2h windfury, and warriors with BWL weapons), no DR's, cc not breaking on damage to name but a few.

    They did not have 1/5 of the tech or manpower that they do now in terms of being able to balance things, hence why the one stop shop resilience was introduced in BC but now that they have exponentially more tools at their disposal, it looks like they are going to try. If it does turn out to be a total shit show then templates may need to come back to some form of degree, but that is the last thing they want, as well the majority of the competitive pvp population that i have spoken with.
    Last edited by Osanger; 2018-07-17 at 09:02 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    1775 is the cutoff for rival so you will start getting HC gear then, which is way more accessible than 2k for those who are serious about rated pvp. You overestimate how much Mythic gear will be available to those outside of PvP as the season will start before Mythic raiding does, so i really don't think the ladder will be full of thousands of M+ people looking to crush lower geared players other than those serious about PvP.
    With Mythic looking at a comparably earlier release for crossrealm, that number will go up.
    After all, Mythic will now open up after 100 guilds cleared content, which is sooner than to wait like 3-4 months until the patch hits, which in turn mostly makes gear from said mythic instance useless.

    And second, the comparison for your average player is not mythic, it's heroic, this is where PvP has match up first and foremost and i'd say that heroic is still easier to achieve.

    All things aside, it doesn't need thousand of people, just enough to people to notice, expansions like BC,Wotlk or Cata are prime examples where certain dps classes were at a disadvantage if they didn't have OP PvE Item X/Y/Z.
    Not every Warrior / DK had Shadowmourne, but i think those that solely focused on PvP had their gripe with that, because if one showed up with similiar skill AND that weapon, they were in trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    You know fine well they will never go over the ilvl, as much as they want to grow pvp, its still a pve game at its core and far far more people would just whine about "pvp being mandatory" because the gear is so good.
    Then it would be better to move PvP back to its own item system, PvE is pretty much by the default the path of least resistance, if it awards better Ilvl (or is easier to grab) then it's no surprise that people have no interest in doing PvP.
    You can't have two gearing system that award the "same items" but one path will be worse due reason x, you can't expect that the "inferior" path will be chosen especially if there's more effort and a harder learning curve involved.

    As long as PvE awards similiar Ilvl it will be fine, it's the "easier" path, as long as PvE rewards remain reasonable there will be enough people choosing that no matter what.
    Compare it to Warmode, PvP is slightly more beneficial but obviously has some risk / disruption involved, whereas the "PvE Mode(?)" has no "risk" but no bonus.
    That bonus does not have to Ilvl, the acquisition rate would be the best option.

    If you get like 3-4 items for a full Antorus clear, you should ask yourself how many items a PvP should receive during a similiar timeframe if halfway successful and on a "average" rating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    i.e separate pvp modifiers for starters
    Have fun tuning [insert FotM Rogue / Mage spec] or any other class with crazy burst / control, without even having resilience as basic damage reduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    no DR's, cc not breaking to name but a few.
    DR were introduced mid Vanilla, only the earliest version did not have DR.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    With Mythic looking at a comparably earlier release for crossrealm, that number will go up.
    After all, Mythic will now open up after 100 guilds cleared content, which is sooner than to wait like 3-4 months until the patch hits, which in turn mostly makes gear from said mythic instance useless.

    And second, the comparison for your average player is not mythic, it's heroic, this is where PvP has match up first and foremost and i'd say that heroic is still easier to achieve.
    I dont think the numbers will increase significantly at all, after all just because Mythic is open does not mean the majority of the player base will suddenly be rolling in Mythic PvE gear, they still have to kill said bosses, which is progression for a lot of these guilds at a slow rate and deal with personal rng loot. I fully expect to actually get more Mythic ilvl gear from arena after mythic opens, mainly because of my relatively high rating over my guilds ability to progress on mythic (were not a hardcore mythic raiding guild, only semi).

    The HC question is a wait and see, i can definitely say that i agree obtaining HC raid gear is much easier than 1775 rating in 3s for sure yes, so there could be a spot within the ladder of those bad players with hc raid gear being stuck between a certain rating i.e their gear keeps them at around that rating but their skill cap doesn't allow them to progress. I still do not see that as an issue however as yes those that only pvp only could have a slight gear disadvantage but because they only pvp their average skill cap as a demographic will most likely be higher and even it out or allow them to just beat better geared players. We are talking competitive ladder here not casual players.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Then it would be better to move PvP back to its own item system, PvE is pretty much by the default the path of least resistance, if it awards better Ilvl (or is easier to grab) then it's no surprise that people have no interest in doing PvP.
    You can't have two gearing system that award the "same items" but one path will be worse due reason x, you can't expect that the "inferior" path will be chosen especially if there's more effort and a harder learning curve involved.

    As long as PvE awards similiar Ilvl it will be fine, it's the "easier" path, as long as PvE rewards remain reasonable there will be enough people choosing that no matter what.
    Compare it to Warmode, PvP is slightly more beneficial but obviously has some risk / disruption involved, whereas the "PvE Mode(?)" has no "risk" but no bonus.
    That bonus does not have to Ilvl, the acquisition rate would be the best option.

    If you get like 3-4 items for a full Antorus clear, you should ask yourself how many items a PvP should receive during a similiar timeframe if halfway successful and on a "average" rating.
    The conquest cap goes towards throttling the amount of gear available to pvp per week. Raids have a lock out and some weeks you may get nothing at all. At least you are working towards a guaranteed piece of gear within the system, unless rnjesus fucks you and you get a random item of the same slot......

    I do think that pvp needs its own gearing system i.e resil, it worked and still allowed char progression and a reward system worth playing for, templates dont.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Have fun tuning [insert FotM Rogue / Mage spec] or any other class with crazy burst / control, without even having resilience as basic damage reduction.
    Never said it would be easy, they certainly have the resources now to attempt it, which was just not an option in previous expacs.

    If it was me i would just add resilience onto the heart of azeroth, and tweak it per class to what it needs to be almost like a mini-template that still allows your gear to matter, i could live with that.
    Last edited by Osanger; 2018-07-17 at 09:47 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    We are talking competitive ladder here not casual players.
    The problem is that even competitive players start out somewhere, if there's no incentive to go into PvP in the first place, you basically fail advertise potential people to play pvp.
    If you fail to incentive casual playerbase to engage in an activity, then even the engaged playerbase will dry out sooner or later, mythic raiders also don't start with WoW and then suddenly join a mythic guild, most start off small.

    All things aside, trying to increase PvP participation by trying to appeal to engaged people is kinda the wrong way, engaged people do PvP or don't want to PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Never said it would be easy, they certainly have the resources now to attempt it, which was just not an option in previous expacs.
    Wrong.
    They used that since Wotlk, they only started to off very slow.

    Highpoint has been in legion along with the Template system.
    And you still can only solve problems one way, if a spec is too squishy / tanky then you can't do shit, you can only buff / nerf output, which is only half of the story.

    And it simply makes things far more difficult, if you want to nerf overall damage you have to go over every single damage spell and nerf it, which might cause upheaval as far as talents are concerned and so forth.

    The Template simply gives more tools to balance, that is a fact.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2018-07-17 at 10:16 PM.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    .The Template simply gives more tools to balance, that is a fact.
    By removing core concepts of what makes a mmo feel like an mmo, and people dont like it, which is why they are gone.

  20. #80
    So tldr; are templates gone or what?

    And why can't they just bring back wod style pvp gear? Twas the best system.
    Last edited by shuubi; 2018-07-18 at 08:13 AM.
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