Templates officially gone ?

[Kralljin]

The tuning will happen with scaling.

So Templates are called scaling now?

[Craaazyyy]

So Templates are called scaling now?

well you can still adjust your stats the way you want them

so if you want more crit - you can have more crit etc.

- - - Updated - - -

I've said it in my first post: Nobody but Blizzard knows whether Templates are completely gone or they'll be making a return once BfA hits.

Communication on that front is nonexistant.

Whether you like Templates or not, announcing that they'll be gone in BfA would have been the most basic thing, perhaps even explain what now works in PvP or not and how they intend to balance PvP going forward.
I'm not the one to complain about devs not communicating with players, but announcing fundamental changes to a system is something that i would still like to see.



The people that believe customization will return due the removal of Templates live in a dream world, or take PvE as gear source into account.

The reward system is still RNG based, if you just get Versatility items, then you probably equip them unless you're lucky and get items on the same slot with your desired stats.
If you just gear yourself via PvP, the loot slotmachine will dictate your stats.

why wouldnt they take pve as gear source into account? also even if its random(it sucks i agree) you will still probably be able to get gear with proper stats(even if it just one stat and the other one is versa, similar to how you had resilience and another stat back in the days).. so eventually you will still be able to stack one stat u wanted instead of just using only ilvl as the main reason why u use specific pieces of gear

templates were bad for the game.. this current system is better but it doesnt really solve any major problems really(the only really major problem is pruning and overall simplification of the game. Cuz templates or not, its still not gonna be fun to play)

also i think that old system with PVP gear having resilience was the best one

[Kralljin]

well you can still adjust your stats the way you want them

so if you want more crit - you can have more crit etc.

Good thing a decent chunk of secondary stats comes from your Heart of Azeroth, which just gives you the same amount of crit/haste/mastery.
Second, there were ways to solve this without scrapping the Template system entirely.

And lastly, i'm still standing by the fact that "stacking" a certain stat does not make a major difference unless you can acquire items with stat X on every slot, which is kinda hard with the RNG loot system.

why wouldnt they take pve as gear source into account?

No idea, but from my experience from previous expansions, PvP'ers don't like the idea of doing PvE for useful gear.

also even if its random(it sucks i agree) you will still probably be able to get gear with proper stats(even if it just one stat and the other one is versa, similar to how you had resilience and another stat back in the days).. so eventually you will still be able to stack one stat u wanted instead of just using only ilvl as the main reason why u use specific pieces of gear

That doesn't make sense.
The gear you receive and the stats on it is random, you can only stack one stat if you keep playing until you get pieces with a high ilvl (Warforging / titanforging is still a thing) and the proper stats.

If you want to reliably get items with a certain stat, M+ / raiding is the best option.

templates were bad for the game

PvP having shit reward was its death verdict.
Try designing a dungeon, then put complete shit loot, wonder why no one is doing it, you got Legion PvP.

Unless they get really crazy with handing out loot in PvP (which it probably won't) then i doubt PvP participation will increase in BfA and i suspect that will have poorer balance as well, because Templates were kinda neat to balance specs individually.

[Craaazyyy]

Good thing a decent chunk of secondary stats comes from your Heart of Azeroth, which just gives you the same amount of crit/haste/mastery.
Second, there were ways to solve this without scrapping the Template system entirely.

And lastly, i'm still standing by the fact that "stacking" a certain stat does not make a major difference unless you can acquire items with stat X on every slot, which is kinda hard with the RNG loot system.



No idea, but from my experience from previous expansions, PvP'ers don't like the idea of doing PvE for useful gear.



That doesn't make sense.
The gear you receive and the stats on it is random, you can only stack one stat if you keep playing until you get pieces with a high ilvl (Warforging / titanforging is still a thing) and the proper stats.



PvP having shit reward was its death verdict.
Try designing a dungeon, then put put complete shit loot, wonder why no one is doing it, you got Legion PvP.

And unless they get really crazy with handing out loot in PvP (which it probably won't) then i doubt PvP participation will increase in BfA and i suspect that will have poorer balance as well, because Templates were kinda neat to balance specs individually.

i said that eventually you will have gear with proper stats.. also some people dont like farming pve gear for pvp, some do

and yeah, not everyone is playing the game for rewards, especially in pvp

participation wont increase because class design is dogshit

[Mafic]

So Templates are called scaling now?

Templates are gone.

Scaling has existed in WoW since MoP.

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PvP at 120 is going to be hilarious.

Certain Azerite traits stack. For example there is an envenom trait for Assasination Rogues that allows 65k crits. That's 50-75% of your HP bar at 120.

Well Blizz is full retard with the Azerite system where some other traits don't stack but allow Envenom to stack. And yeah BFA Assassination Rogues are stronger than early WotLK Mut/prep Rogues in BFA with that Azerite trait stacking. And WotLK Mut/Prep Rogues were only strong due to several bugs at launch.

[Mafic]

It wasn't a mistake to remove them, it was a mistake not reintroducing honor and conquest gear that is BiS in all PvP combat (except maybe world PvP). Allowing PvE gear, including trinkets (!), to be BiS in PvP is a grave mistake

BFA has a strong PVP gear progression system. But the one big flaw with BFA PVP gearing system that I have seen is that you can't stack the targeted secondary stats that you want due to not being able to target gear upgrades. However, if you play exclusively PVP non stop you will eventually pick up the pieces that you want.

The downside is that casual PVP players may feel forced to do PVE. However, that was also true in Legion where casual PVP players did a lot of PVE to have gear with higher ilevels as PVP gear in Legion was purposefully kept at a much lower ilevel. In BFA PVP gear will not be at a much lower ilevel which addresses a lot of the concerns people have with the removal of templates.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm leveling my Assasination Rogue straight away after my Fury Warrior. That shit is going to be hilarious in World PvP and instanced PvP too.

In typical Blizz fashion absolutely nothing is balanced. August 18 is the real Beta. Some specs have insane traits whilst others have literal garbage.

The legendaries up to 116 are also insane on Rogues in general(shoulders).

Even if they nerf the trait Assassination is going to be strong because it is one of the few specs that has escaped most of the pruning shenanigans. If Assassination had Gouge it would be the most complete Rogue spec and closest to its vanilla counter part. With the new honor configuration, Assassination having access to other talents including smoke bomb is a big deal.

[Tokas]

I'm confused, does this mean that gear matters again?
Unlike legion when green geared player is only 10% behind mythic geared player?

[Kauko]

Again, 1% forced their will and got what they wanted. People that play multiple hours per day and have time to gear multiple alts will again have a huge advantage over people that have something else to do than just grind gear. In ranked PVP, BGs gear level should not be a factor. Just like it was in Legion. They should just make an option to alter your stats with different pieces, but gear iLvl should be the same for all(+/- few % like in Legion). Let people buy their gear with points, let them stack stats, not iLvl.

[Deleted]

"entitlement" lmao it's a video game and i'm paying 15 dollars a month to have fun on it, not paying 15 dollars a month for a second job. gear is an outdated concept and has no place in competitive PvP which is why hardly any other modern PvP game has it not even overwatch. you sound like you can't win based on skill alone and you're mad that you've been getting whooped by fresh 110s all of legion

Gear has no place in those other pvp games you mentioned because they are not MMO's, or did you miss that? The general consensus on the competitive ladder where i play 2.2k and above is that templates and a terrible rewards structure have eroded one of the fundamental things people play WoW for, the power curve of gearing your character. So no those fresh 110's you talk about last about a week on the ladder then give up because they have no sense of getting more powerful the more time they put in as well as improving skill wise. All this has done is create dead spots in the ladder at certain ratings and because of the drop in population it has also broken the MMR system, to a point where if you are above 2.3k you will be matched quite regularly with teams above 2.4-2.8k because there is no one else queuing.

So in retrospect you sound like someone who doesn't understand this at all because you are not playing anywhere near the same competitive level i am describing, so you also have no idea of the effect it is having on the competitive population as a whole. And i stand by what i said, you don't want gear in pvp because you cannot be bothered to grind it out. WoW is not about instant gratification and the more it slides towards pandering to people like you the further the game gets away from being an MMO. If you dont like it, then go pay LoL or Overwatch, those will provide you with the hit your goldfish like attention span needs and leave the MMO's to be MMO's.

[Nuba]

If a Guy with 390 Full Gear from Uldir shows up, he has objectively better gear even for PvP unless you also have 390 Gear, which is not very likely if the Reward structure yields similiar Ilvl as in Legion.

1800 = heroic quality gear
2k = mythic quality
2300 = last boss of mythic quality

I really really really don't think a random PvEr will get that close to power level, and if it does (method, high-end mythic raiders etc) they are already top pvpers as well anyway.

please, everyone here is just feeling sad for you constantly trying to explain your point even though at this moment you don't even seem to believe on what you're typing anymore, and you're just being stubborn for the sake of not admiting you were mistaken from the start, but instead you just look silly.

[ilik2345]

1800 = heroic quality gear
2k = mythic quality
2300 = last boss of mythic quality

I really really really don't think a random PvEr will get that close to power level, and if it does (method, high-end mythic raiders etc) they are already top pvpers as well anyway.

please, everyone here is just feeling sad for you constantly trying to explain your point even though at this moment you don't even seem to believe on what you're typing anymore, and you're just being stubborn for the sake of not admiting you were mistaken from the start, but instead you just look silly.

I feel your being optimistic, many times, in many blue posts blizzard has made it clear, it wants mythic raiders to have the best gear. As in better then any other source.

As far as i can tell from what blizzard has told us :-

The new brackets are
Bronze (1600-1800) - Equivilant to Challanger/Soldier (top 35% of rated players): Rewarding - normal raid ilvl gear
Silver (1800-2200) - Equilvilant to (roughly) to Rival/Defender (top 10% of the rated players): Heroic Tier type gear
Gold (2200-2400) - Equiv to Duelist/Guardian (top 3% of rated) : Not been stated yet, but i would suspect a tiny increase on ilvl of Heroic gear
Plat (2400-2600) - Equiv to Glad / Hero (top 1%) : See above, again expect a tiny increase on the previous bracket, still bellow mythic
Diamond (2600+): - top 0.1% roughly? : i would expect more of the same, but who knows maybe blizard will give mythic quality to these r1 folk.

What you can tell from this is that 65% of people that actually participate in rated content will get less then normal raid gear. It still feels looking at the percentages that the rewards are too low, of those that raid, i'm fairly sure more then 10% will dable in heroic raids - and for 90% of the rated pvp'ers thats the best gear they can hope for.

[Deleted]

So based on a thing that less than 5% of the player base even participates in, that was so universally disliked that it led to an EIGHTY PERCENT falloff in both rated and unrated PvP participation...

you call it a success.

Yeah, some success.

Oh, you've an inside source that the template system alone was the SOLE culprit for your suspiciously nebulous numbers? Not any of the other, pertinent points raised about the rewards system and lack of incentive for continued PvP?

I'm just messing with you. We know you just quoted a soundbite out of context and have nothing but vitriolic hyperbole and bull behind it to back it up.

[Zantos]

Unfortunately. Now my mythic gear is enough to one-shot someone with green items. I don't have fun with that. Can u ask green geared players about that? :P
I want fair combat against another player not gear challenge. Also templates were very good for alts. I could take my hunter and go fight. Now i need gear first.
I hope that Blizz will bring back Templates.

I agree. I enjoyed templates because while someone who was not geared would be at a disadvantage, it wouldn't be so bad that you couldn't fight back. I also liked that Anything I got was an upgrade. Unlike on the PvE front, they succeeded at making the ilevel an upgrade in PvP thanks to the templates. I was happy with any upgrade to my gear, as long as its ilevel was higher.

I just hope that what ever they do, its still going to be just as easy to hop in on an alt and actually have fun and be able to contribute instead of being dead weight until I am geared.

[Tokas]

Unfortunately. Now my mythic gear is enough to one-shot someone with green items. I don't have fun with that. Can u ask green geared players about that? :P
I want fair combat against another player not gear challenge. Also templates were very good for alts. I could take my hunter and go fight. Now i need gear first.
I hope that Blizz will bring back Templates.

No no, I like that, kill me all day long.
What was missing in Legion is sense of progression.
Ok maybe today you kill me in 2 hits, tomorrow you may only do that in 4 hits.
Next month maybe I can kill you.
Legion was shit - I just dinged and owning players who grinded shit for whole expansion. -Nonsense.

[Loxotron]

Unfortunately. Now my mythic gear is enough to one-shot someone with green items. I don't have fun with that. Can u ask green geared players about that? :P
I want fair combat against another player not gear challenge. Also templates were very good for alts. I could take my hunter and go fight. Now i need gear first.
I hope that Blizz will bring back Templates.

I am this green guy that has just returned to the game and it feels totally fine to be stomped by geared person. Only delusional people expect to have same power of character in MMORPG between worst and best gear. But if i wouldn't see such power curve i wouldnt even bother to play (legion was a rockbottom for me with template system and only could tolerate it for several weeks) since there are plenty of pure competitive games with whom wow can't compete in terms of pure combat (quake, cs are good examples).

[Deleted]

I feel your being optimistic, many times, in many blue posts blizzard has made it clear, it wants mythic raiders to have the best gear. As in better then any other source.

As far as i can tell from what blizzard has told us :-

The new brackets are
Bronze (1600-1800) - Equivilant to Challanger/Soldier (top 35% of rated players): Rewarding - normal raid ilvl gear
Silver (1800-2200) - Equilvilant to (roughly) to Rival/Defender (top 10% of the rated players): Heroic Tier type gear
Gold (2200-2400) - Equiv to Duelist/Guardian (top 3% of rated) : Not been stated yet, but i would suspect a tiny increase on ilvl of Heroic gear
Plat (2400-2600) - Equiv to Glad / Hero (top 1%) : See above, again expect a tiny increase on the previous bracket, still bellow mythic
Diamond (2600+): - top 0.1% roughly? : i would expect more of the same, but who knows maybe blizard will give mythic quality to these r1 folk.

What you can tell from this is that 65% of people that actually participate in rated content will get less then normal raid gear. It still feels looking at the percentages that the rewards are too low, of those that raid, i'm fairly sure more then 10% will dable in heroic raids - and for 90% of the rated pvp'ers thats the best gear they can hope for.

The way that it is being described is your gear is related to your rating. It is a gateway system, you will start receiving gear of a certain ilvl after you pass that particular rating gate i.e 1600 you will be eligible for normal raid gear, but you are not fixed at that ilvl all the way upto 1800 it will increase in ilvl along with your rating until you get to the next gate.

At above 1800 rating you will receive hc raid gear but say at 1750 you will get gear just below hc level all of which also have a chance to titanforge. The rival bracket is from 1775-2100 rating so you would not start receiving base ilvl mythic gear until you pass 2.1k or basically into the duelist bracket. This IMO is totally fine as coming from a player who does both mythic raid content and 3v3 at 2.2k, i can assure you achieving 2.1k in arena is far less accessible than killing some bosses on mythic to the majority of the player base, therefore negating the whole "i am forced to pvp to get gear" argument, as the majority of the people saying that don't have the required skill to access the gear anyways.

The key point to take away from the blue post is the use of ~ meaning anything inbetween, i.e start at normal and moving upto but not above hc until you reach your next rating gate and so on so forth.

https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...p-tier-system/ for reference.

Also just to add, if you go onto wowprogress you can see worldwide that 3.86% of the total raiding guilds have killed Argus on Mythic, but 21% have killed Garothi, so going by those figures, there are more people killing the hardest content pve wise in the game that are above 2.1k in arena, but 21% of the whole raiding community technically has access to Mythic gear. You can say ofc there are more people raiding than doing PvP but that only goes to strengthen the case that those above that rating should have access to base ilvl mythic gear since it is quite obvious what is the harder content.

[ilik2345]

The way that it is being described is your gear is related to your rating. It is a gateway system, you will start receiving gear of a certain ilvl after you pass that particular rating gate i.e 1600 you will be eligible for normal raid gear, but you are not fixed at that ilvl all the way upto 1800 it will increase in ilvl along with your rating until you get to the next gate.

At above 1800 rating you will receive hc raid gear but say at 1750 you will get gear just below hc level all of which also have a chance to titanforge. The rival bracket is from 1775-2100 rating so you would not start receiving base ilvl mythic gear until you pass 2.1k or basically into the duelist bracket. This IMO is totally fine as coming from a player who does both mythic raid content and 3v3 at 2.2k, i can assure you achieving 2.1k in arena is far less accessible than killing some bosses on mythic to the majority of the player base, therefore negating the whole "i am forced to pvp to get gear" argument, as the majority of the people saying that don't have the required skill to access the gear anyways.

The key point to take away from the blue post is the use of ~ meaning anything inbetween, i.e start at normal and moving upto but not above hc until you reach your next rating gate and so on so forth.

https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...p-tier-system/ for reference.

Also just to add, if you go onto wowprogress you can see worldwide that 3.86% of the total raiding guilds have killed Argus on Mythic, but 21% have killed Garothi, so going by those figures, there are more people killing the hardest content pve wise in the game that are above 2.1k in arena, but 21% of the whole raiding community technically has access to Mythic gear. You can say ofc there are more people raiding than doing PvP but that only goes to strengthen the case that those above that rating should have access to base ilvl mythic gear since it is quite obvious what is the harder content.

I agree with you, the only place we differ is in the belief that blizzard will actually give anywhere near mythic gear for the higher brackets (gold/diamond/plat) - i don't think they will.

[Deleted]

I agree with you, the only place we differ is in the belief that blizzard will actually give anywhere near mythic gear for the higher brackets (gold/diamond/plat) - i don't think they will.

Here's hoping, however also the cynic in me agrees with you as well!!!

Finger crossed lol.

[Nuba]

I feel your being optimistic, many times, in many blue posts blizzard has made it clear, it wants mythic raiders to have the best gear. As in better then any other source.

wtf? you just made it all up past rival. at 2k your gear is already better than heroic btw you randomly put a gap there, and diamond isn't = rank 1, its = gladiator (0-1600 = bronze).
there will be no upgrade in gear past 2400, where you'll be getting the same ilvl of end-of-raid mythic boss weekly. past 2400 its only about grinding the 50 wins for glad mount, gearing up through weekly chests and competing for rank-1 title.

[ilik2345]

wtf? you just made it all up past rival. at 2k your gear is already better than heroic btw you randomly put a gap there, and diamond isn't = rank 1, its = gladiator (0-1600 = bronze).
there will be no upgrade in gear past 2400, where you'll be getting the same ilvl of end-of-raid mythic boss weekly. past 2400 its only about grinding the 50 wins for glad mount, gearing up through weekly chests and competing for rank-1 title.

Happy to admit i got the brackets a bit wrong

What blizzard have explicitly stated is :-

Combatant: 1400–1599
Challenger: 1600–1799
Rival: 1800–2099
Duelist: 2100–2399
Gladiator: 2400+

source: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...rating-updates

However from looking at the icons in game (with guesses at titles) we know there are 7 ranks.

Bronze
Silver
Gold
Platinum
Diamond
Master
Grandmaster

source: https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618203657

However, mmo-champ claims the brackets are :

Unranked: 0 - 1400
Combatant: 1375 - 1600
Challenger: 1575 - 1800
Rival: 1775 - 2100
Duelist: 2075 - 2400
Gladiator: 2375+

source: https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...Live-This-Week!

My rank at 2080 last season which gained the lovely silver icon.

As far as rewards, the only thing we have to go on is from the blue post of phalanx (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...30?page=1#6):-

"What this means is that players in Challenger/Gold (1600-1800 around) will have a chance at ~Normal raid quality loot, Rival/Platinum (starting around 1800) with Heroic Raid quality loot, and so on."

None of us know what so on means. I'm sorry i can't be bothered to search out the blue posts / dev interviews where they wish to reasure mythic raiders that mythic raids will always drop the best loot of all content, it has been brought up a couple of times though during bfa alpha and beta - you'll just have to take my word on it, or search for it.