Beta Key Giveaway Week 3: Winners have been selected!

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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by OreoLover View Post
    Glad to see "vote with your wallet" and "vote with your money," those are my final signature for years for good reason.

    Give feedback @ Blizzard forums first, if you think it won't make any impact.

    Personal Loot problems are minor if you're citing "but a PUG didn't give up loot!" when there's self-protection on drops, etc.
    Yes, I'm sure the 57c a day Blizzard gets from you is totally going to make them change their mind about something they did that you don't like, and I'm sure you'll find something much, much better than WoW to spend all that money you're saving on. Like a 2 liter of soda every 3 days. So much better than WoW.
    If you want to find out who rules you, find out whose opinions you're not allowed to disagree with without being punished.

  2. #282
    There's no set bonuses and legendaries, thus you can fill most of your gear slots with raid gear/ mythic+ gear.

    The trinkets are lackluster so it's not gonna matter getting the perfect one either (only if you're pushing world firsts).

    It's true it's not fun for raiding guilds you can't funnel gear in one place anymore, but as a healer, it means I'm gonna get more gear early on, so I'm cool with it haha.
    Last edited by EUPLEB; 2018-07-12 at 09:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by EUPLEB View Post
    Patch next 24-25/09 -> Antorus either the week after Blizzcon, or the week of the 28-29/11.
    :thinking:

  3. #283
    There's no situation in where it shouldn't exist.

  4. #284
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    The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

    The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.

    So in the end, no one wins. You've got an upset player who was ninja'd, your ninja is upset because he got caught and punished, and the GM has wasted time. Master Looter was a fine idea, but the data that Blizzard have gathered over many years tells them that it has these inherent problems. And before people try to regale us with anecdotes about how it can't be a problem in guilds, the fact that Blizzard are taking this step suggests that their hard data says otherwise.


    Anyhow, I don't see what all the fuss is about. With the ability to trade loot anyway, for most decent guilds things will be pretty much unaffected. The major difference though that is that no one can force another player to give up their fair share of the loot.

    As for the arguments about this will make loot distibution less efficient, slow down progression, put good guilds at a disadvantage etc, those are pretty much entirely spurious arguments. The fact is that the rate at which people gear up is already artificial and happens at the pace that it is designed to happen. The effects of changing from ML to PL can be cancelled out by tuning other things like drop rates. If progression is slowed, it won't be because of PL, it will be because Blizzard designed it that way. Also, ML never gave any guilds any kind of advantage if every other competing guild was also using it. The important thing for competitive play is that everyone is on the same system, not what that system is.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Owlmygod View Post
    Without filler players, you cant kill the boss.
    With personal loot, you can attract fillers. Your guildies killed more bosses so they will get more loot (+bad luck protection)
    You attract fillers who will jump to the next group they can fill in as soon as you are stuck on some boss.
    Your guildies killed more bosses, its no guarantee they get more loot.

    You are comparing a system depending entirely on RNG vs an organized system with even loot distribution and saying RNG is better? Ultimately, in a pug, you cant use ML and Blizzard has never intended to make mythic pugable (and even if they did, you still cant ML unless you get in a guild and all, and then its not really a pug).
    Last edited by klaps_05; 2018-07-12 at 10:39 AM.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiase View Post
    I had been with them for about a year and was loyal to the guild. Take your snark and suck it will you? Besides, a few months afterwards I went on a break and when I came back the guild was dead.
    It's may be in a snarky way but he is totally right!

    You stay in a guild that has problems giving out loot and like you noticed that so did all other raiders..
    so instead of leaving your toxic guild you stay because you know them a bit and finding a new one can be a hassle and post about how bad they did giving out loot and reply again saying how loyal you are and the guild is dead now....

    Only giving more proof you should have left your guild or atleas brought it up but if it just keeps going on, time to jump ship

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

    The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.
    And with the change the same people who ticket about "not getting loot in a guild" are gonna ticket "player X didn't give me loot when he could've". Stupid people will still make stupid tickets, just as they are going to stay in guilds that aren't going to take them into raids as likely because they'd just take loot away from players that actually need them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Anyhow, I don't see what all the fuss is about. With the ability to trade loot anyway, for most decent guilds things will be pretty much unaffected. The major difference though that is that no one can force another player to give up their fair share of the loot.
    Loot isn't tradeable if it is ilvl upgrade for you and Azerite gear isn't tradeable at all. What it does is increase annoyance with loot trading, since it has to be done manually, and lower the average ilvl "main" characters have going into Mythic raids. Amount of alts/split runs is likely to stay the same, apart from the first tier.

    Also the people who are the complainers (aka trials and non-main raiders) are way less likely to even get into the raids since all loot can't be funneled into the people that are ~guaranteed to be there on important progress bosses, which in turn creates more drama.

    All in all the change is bad and is nothing but babysitting for bad (and stupid) players who won't leave a guild that doesn't give them loot (because they're bad/stupid).

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    And with the change the same people who ticket about "not getting loot in a guild" are gonna ticket "player X didn't give me loot when he could've". Stupid people will still make stupid tickets,
    1) While I am sure there will be the odd guy who does this, there is little basis to believe that the problem won't be significantly reduced. Blizzard have had personal loot in place for some time now, giving them plenty of data on how it affects the number of tickets. It's a sure bet (even if it isn't obvious to you) that this is going to have a dramatic impact on ticket numbers.

    2) Even if some retard tries this, it's a lot easier to sort out quickly and with less potential forwithout pissing off multiple players.

    When a player ninja's a piece of loot and it is ticketed:
    1) the GM has to investigate what happened and go back in the chat logs to see if there was any loot agreement beforehand
    2) if it was indeed a case of ninjaing, then the GM has contact the culprit and explain to them why their item is being taken away and then remove the item
    3) the GM has to contact the victim and explain what steps that person should take in the future (eg ensure that a proper loot agreement is in place, don't join groups using ML etc). The GM then has to try and placate that player while explaining that he won't get that piece of loot even though it was clearly ninja'd

    When a player complains about not being handed a piece of loot that someone else won, and it is ticketed:
    1) The GM can copy paste a standard reply "Sorry player X, but personal loot belongs to the person who won it and it is entirely their right and prerogative to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Better luck next time!"

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    just as they are going to stay in guilds that aren't going to take them into raids as likely because they'd just take loot away from players that actually need them.
    Sorry but what you have written here is very garbled, so I may have misinterpretted your meaning:

    With personal loot you literally cannot take any loot away from another player. If you're trying to say that guilds will not bring guildees to raid who refuse to accede to guild requests to trade gear to other players, then I am not sure where you think the problem is. Reasonable guilds won't make unreasonable demands on their raiders, and reasonable raiders will act in the best interests of the guild. Shitty guilds that insist on forcing unreasonable demands on players will find themselves short on players, and shitty players who refuse to act like reasonable team members will find themselves kicked out. What you're left with is a guild of like-minded people all of whom benefit from working together.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Loot isn't tradeable if it is ilvl upgrade for you and Azerite gear isn't tradeable at all.
    And the problem with this is? All it means is that the ability to bolster the gearing rate for highly geared players is throttled a bit. And since this applies to all guilds equally, it doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    What it does is increase annoyance with loot trading, since it has to be done manually,
    If you're trying to emulate Master Looter then it might make things marginally more complicated. But really, is it all that much of a problem for people to trade an item to another member of the group? Sounds like a bit of hyperbole to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    and lower the average ilvl "main" characters have going into Mythic raids.
    For the vast majority of players this will be pretty negligible. For groups that employ alts to loot funnel it will have an effect. But quite frankly I don't see why reducing the ilevel gap between split-raid groups and regular raid groups should be a real problem. If anything that's a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Amount of alts/split runs is likely to stay the same, apart from the first tier.
    Yes, but the effectiveness of it will be less. In other words the penalty suffered by groups that don't do split runs will be reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Also the people who are the complainers (aka trials and non-main raiders) are way less likely to even get into the raids since all loot can't be funneled into the people that are ~guaranteed to be there on important progress bosses, which in turn creates more drama.
    The purpose of trials is to recruit new players to a guild, which is necessary to manage natural attrition. If a guild is going to stop bringing trials to raids because of loot issues, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    All in all the change is bad and is nothing but babysitting for bad (and stupid) players who won't leave a guild that doesn't give them loot (because they're bad/stupid).
    And what about all I said that you replied to? This change is happening because Blizzard have metrics that tell them that ML causes a lot of shit. They have metrics that tell them that moving to PL results in a lot less drama. No one ever said it would remove all the drama, but I think you'd have to be pretty stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant positive impact.

    Anyhow, this change is coming. You can choose to either sulk about it or accept it and move on. But I can see it now, there are going to be players who will insist on being grumpy about this, not because it is actually bad, but because they are too stubborn to give a try and risk the chance of being proven wrong. For some people, admitting they are wrong is far too high a price for being happy. I have zero sympathy for such people and I doubt anyone else does either.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

    The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.

    So in the end, no one wins. You've got an upset player who was ninja'd, your ninja is upset because he got caught and punished, and the GM has wasted time. Master Looter was a fine idea, but the data that Blizzard have gathered over many years tells them that it has these inherent problems. And before people try to regale us with anecdotes about how it can't be a problem in guilds, the fact that Blizzard are taking this step suggests that their hard data says otherwise.


    Anyhow, I don't see what all the fuss is about. With the ability to trade loot anyway, for most decent guilds things will be pretty much unaffected. The major difference though that is that no one can force another player to give up their fair share of the loot.

    As for the arguments about this will make loot distibution less efficient, slow down progression, put good guilds at a disadvantage etc, those are pretty much entirely spurious arguments. The fact is that the rate at which people gear up is already artificial and happens at the pace that it is designed to happen. The effects of changing from ML to PL can be cancelled out by tuning other things like drop rates. If progression is slowed, it won't be because of PL, it will be because Blizzard designed it that way. Also, ML never gave any guilds any kind of advantage if every other competing guild was also using it. The important thing for competitive play is that everyone is on the same system, not what that system is.
    Finally a good answer, i'm still for ML but you sir, gave a good reason to be optimistic for BFA.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by InfectHerGadget View Post
    It's may be in a snarky way but he is totally right!

    You stay in a guild that has problems giving out loot and like you noticed that so did all other raiders..
    so instead of leaving your toxic guild you stay because you know them a bit and finding a new one can be a hassle and post about how bad they did giving out loot and reply again saying how loyal you are and the guild is dead now....

    Only giving more proof you should have left your guild or atleas brought it up but if it just keeps going on, time to jump ship
    seriously learn to read the whole conversation from the start. I had been with the guild for over a year with no problems until they all of a suddenly decided to play favorites with some of the other officers because they began to befriend each other in real life. It annoyed me and i eventually left.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    1) While I am sure there will be the odd guy who does this, there is little basis to believe that the problem won't be significantly reduced. Blizzard have had personal loot in place for some time now, giving them plenty of data on how it affects the number of tickets. It's a sure bet (even if it isn't obvious to you) that this is going to have a dramatic impact on ticket numbers.
    There is little basis that the "problem" will take any less time than it currently takes. CS only handles loot trades etc. if loot is actually ninja'd aka there has been clear instructions how loot is distributed (in case of boost runs etc) and it doesn't happen in such a way. Being in a guild instantly negates this and thus ML "ninjaing" aka not giving you loot is not a basis for loot trades and thus the player just gets pre-generated answer.

    Any actual issues will remain to be so and won't take any less time than it currently does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    2) Even if some retard tries this, it's a lot easier to sort out quickly and with less potential forwithout pissing off multiple players.
    It takes the same amount of time as it currently does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    When a player ninja's a piece of loot and it is ticketed:
    1) the GM has to investigate what happened and go back in the chat logs to see if there was any loot agreement beforehand
    2) if it was indeed a case of ninjaing, then the GM has contact the culprit and explain to them why their item is being taken away and then remove the item
    3) the GM has to contact the victim and explain what steps that person should take in the future (eg ensure that a proper loot agreement is in place, don't join groups using ML etc). The GM then has to try and placate that player while explaining that he won't get that piece of loot even though it was clearly ninja'd
    Without evidence of actual ninja, aka SS of conversations and loot rules, there no need to investigate any further. General pre-generated answer is enough in these cases.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    When a player complains about not being handed a piece of loot that someone else won, and it is ticketed:
    1) The GM can copy paste a standard reply "Sorry player X, but personal loot belongs to the person who won it and it is entirely their right and prerogative to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Better luck next time!"
    And currently the GM can copypaste the standard "Sorry player X, but you accepted the loot rules when you joined the guild/run and it is the guilds right to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Have a nice day!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Sorry but what you have written here is very garbled, so I may have misinterpretted your meaning:

    With personal loot you literally cannot take any loot away from another player. If you're trying to say that guilds will not bring guildees to raid who refuse to accede to guild requests to trade gear to other players, then I am not sure where you think the problem is. Reasonable guilds won't make unreasonable demands on their raiders, and reasonable raiders will act in the best interests of the guild. Shitty guilds that insist on forcing unreasonable demands on players will find themselves short on players, and shitty players who refuse to act like reasonable team members will find themselves kicked out. What you're left with is a guild of like-minded people all of whom benefit from working together.
    IF a player, who isn't going to be in the main progression, is in the raid then he can take loot away from the progress since not all loot can be traded. Thus he won't be taken into the raid at all.

    Currently you can take non-main raiders or trials on farm bosses, funnel all the useful loot to main raiders that need them and give the extra to the rest (and they have a chance to coin as well).

    Literally some of the people who whined about not getting loot with ML will now whine that they won't even get into raids because of the chance that they'll get valuable loot over others.

    Shitty guilds that use ML "maliciously" should find themselves short on players, yet that clearly isn't the case since theres "so many" people being abused. If you seriously want to use this argument then there is literally zero reasons to remove ML in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And the problem with this is? All it means is that the ability to bolster the gearing rate for highly geared players is throttled a bit. And since this applies to all guilds equally, it doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage.
    The problem is that you'll end up wasting a lot of loot potential. You can get a 5 ilvl upgrade and not be able to trade it for a player who'd get 30 ilvl's. You might get 5 ilvl upgrade on a trinket thats actually a downgrade yet you can't trade it for players who find the trinket BiS.

    It also brings down questionable loot specs for bosses. In order to maximize possible weapon and trinket drops you'd always have to use a spec that gets the most of them (for trading purposes later on). As in a Balance druid would have loot spec as feral for a boss that drops only melee trinkets/weapons in order to have those items in their iventory for future drops to trade away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If you're trying to emulate Master Looter then it might make things marginally more complicated. But really, is it all that much of a problem for people to trade an item to another member of the group? Sounds like a bit of hyperbole to me.
    Compared to 1 guy taking care of the loot vs going around the raid trading things, yes its alot mroe complicated and more time consuming. Not to even mention having to check whether a person can trade the loot or not (obviously not a problem for people that care about killing the bosses, aka the ones who don't support ML removal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    For the vast majority of players this will be pretty negligible. For groups that employ alts to loot funnel it will have an effect. But quite frankly I don't see why reducing the ilevel gap between split-raid groups and regular raid groups should be a real problem. If anything that's a good thing.
    For vast majority of players the change doesn't even apply to. The change really focuses on organized guilds who want to clear instances asap, those are guilds that use split runs to further speed things up.

    Whether it actually takes longer to clear instances with the change (due to lower average ilvl) is down to how Blizzard balances the instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yes, but the effectiveness of it will be less. In other words the penalty suffered by groups that don't do split runs will be reduced.
    Which is exactly what I said. People will stil do it though and it opens possibilities for further class stacking since all characters have ~equal gear in the first week(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The purpose of trials is to recruit new players to a guild, which is necessary to manage natural attrition. If a guild is going to stop bringing trials to raids because of loot issues, they're shooting themselves in the foot.
    They'll stop it during progress unless they really, really need them. There are more ways to evaluate players than having them in on the current progress raid farm bosses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And what about all I said that you replied to? This change is happening because Blizzard have metrics that tell them that ML causes a lot of shit. They have metrics that tell them that moving to PL results in a lot less drama. No one ever said it would remove all the drama, but I think you'd have to be pretty stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant positive impact.
    And all of that is based on your assumptions. There have been no data regarding any of your arguments.
    You'd have to be equally stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant negative impact.

    People who feel like they should get loot while they (in most cases) don't deserve them will be happy (if they find themselves in raids)
    The rest are going to be mad.

    If you think that "significant" positive impact outweights the negative, well I have no words for such a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Anyhow, this change is coming. You can choose to either sulk about it or accept it and move on. But I can see it now, there are going to be players who will insist on being grumpy about this, not because it is actually bad, but because they are too stubborn to give a try and risk the chance of being proven wrong. For some people, admitting they are wrong is far too high a price for being happy. I have zero sympathy for such people and I doubt anyone else does either.
    I know its coming and I've accepted it just fine. Just because it's coming doens't mean its good or any of the negative aspects of it suddenly vanish.

    With your logic whenver a change is coming we should just keep our mouths shut and "deal with it". In reality the reason for as stupid comment as that is the fact that you realized you can't actually counter the arguments made here but are unwilling to face the facts.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiase View Post
    seriously learn to read the whole conversation from the start. I had been with the guild for over a year with no problems until they all of a suddenly decided to play favorites with some of the other officers because they began to befriend each other in real life. It annoyed me and i eventually left.
    Learn to type then...
    You said you stayed for a year and was still in it after your break.

    Not my fault you cant even type down what you tried to say.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    There is little basis that the "problem" will take any less time than it currently takes. CS only handles loot trades etc. if loot is actually ninja'd aka there has been clear instructions how loot is distributed (in case of boost runs etc) and it doesn't happen in such a way. Being in a guild instantly negates this and thus ML "ninjaing" aka not giving you loot is not a basis for loot trades and thus the player just gets pre-generated answer.

    Any actual issues will remain to be so and won't take any less time than it currently does.
    And yet Blizzard, who are the ones changing the system, have the actual data. You just have your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    It takes the same amount of time as it currently does.
    No it wouldn't. I already walked you through step by step why. But I guess ignorant hand waving away trump reason and logic

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Without evidence of actual ninja, aka SS of conversations and loot rules, there no need to investigate any further. General pre-generated answer is enough in these cases.
    This is just plain not true. While a SS may help you with a ticket, there is zero necessity for one and GMs will refer to actual logs even if you do present a SS (because, you know, a SS can be edited). A GM is not going to know whether the evidence exists or not until he/she has taken the time to examine those logs.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    And currently the GM can copypaste the standard "Sorry player X, but you accepted the loot rules when you joined the guild/run and it is the guilds right to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Have a nice day!
    After having spent 20 minutes looking through the logs, compiling a report etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    IF a player, who isn't going to be in the main progression, is in the raid then he can take loot away from the progress since not all loot can be traded. Thus he won't be taken into the raid at all.

    Currently you can take non-main raiders or trials on farm bosses, funnel all the useful loot to main raiders that need them and give the extra to the rest (and they have a chance to coin as well).
    So basically you're admitting that some guilds will abuse players as much as the system will allow them to. Worse yet you seem to think that they're entitled and justified in doing so. You just scored an own goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Literally some of the people who whined about not getting loot with ML will now whine that they won't even get into raids because of the chance that they'll get valuable loot over others.
    Which will push them to leave the guild instead of hanging on in the vain hope that some day they'll be in the main raid team and get to benefit. Shitty guilds will no longer be able to string these suckers along for sole purpose of abusing their loot lockout. Oh noes /0\

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    The problem is that you'll end up wasting a lot of loot potential. You can get a 5 ilvl upgrade and not be able to trade it for a player who'd get 30 ilvl's. You might get 5 ilvl upgrade on a trinket thats actually a downgrade yet you can't trade it for players who find the trinket BiS.
    Effectively this just translates into a lower % chance of upgrade for an individual when they're relying on sponging off other character's loot lockout for the week. Face it, the game is designed so that each character is supposed to have 1 loot lockout per boss per week. Split runs, loot funnelling these are simply loopholes that are being exploited by players to try and beat the system. In the end it's not healthy for the game, it's not healthy for players, it's not healthy for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    It also brings down questionable loot specs for bosses. In order to maximize possible weapon and trinket drops you'd always have to use a spec that gets the most of them (for trading purposes later on). As in a Balance druid would have loot spec as feral for a boss that drops only melee trinkets/weapons in order to have those items in their iventory for future drops to trade away.
    And this is worse than ML where loot can drop that isn't applicable for anyone in the raid, and there is bugger all you can even do about it how?

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Compared to 1 guy taking care of the loot vs going around the raid trading things, yes its alot mroe complicated and more time consuming. Not to even mention having to check whether a person can trade the loot or not (obviously not a problem for people that care about killing the bosses, aka the ones who don't support ML removal)
    We've been using PL since WoD. The loot master calls out items, we all roll for it if we need it, the loot master declares who wins it. The person who has the loot is sufficiently competent to walk up to the winner and hand it over. It's not hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    For vast majority of players the change doesn't even apply to. The change really focuses on organized guilds who want to clear instances asap, those are guilds that use split runs to further speed things up.
    The objective of those guilds is not about saving time, it's about beating other guilds to the finish line. A casual guild that raids twice a week for 3 months to clear the instance is probably spending significantly less time than the world first guilds who play like 100 hours in a week and devote thousands of hour to preparation etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Whether it actually takes longer to clear instances with the change (due to lower average ilvl) is down to how Blizzard balances the instances.
    And here we have the truth, spoken by your own word: PL/ML has no real effect on how long it takes guilds to clear instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    And all of that is based on your assumptions. There have been no data regarding any of your arguments.
    There is data. I have a first hand witness account. What's more is that it totally makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You'd have to be equally stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant negative impact.
    You've decided you don't like the change, so you're trying to come up with heavily biased scenarios that feed your narrative. Sorry, but none of it is really convincing or sounds to me like you've tried to take a balanced view of things.

    I personally have no horse in this proverbial race. I don't raid mythic, and our heroic guild already uses PL. I couldn't care less if you guys got to keep ML or not. So I really am an impartial observer who is sitting here, reading your arguments and thinking W.T.F?!?

    It's like you've convinced yourself that this change is going to be terrible, and you'll be damned if you're going to allow it any possibility of proving otherwise. On principle. Because...reasons...

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    People who feel like they should get loot while they (in most cases) don't deserve them will be happy (if they find themselves in raids)
    Lol. When you say things like "they don't deserve loot" it tells me all I need to know. Maybe try to stop being so entitled and stop obsessing about what other people deserve. Play the bloody game and if an "undeserving" raider isn't pulling his weight, then replace him. This idea that you get to dictate how many rewards everyone else should guess based on your own less than impartial judgement is not healthy. We're all Blizzard customers and everyone deserves to get a decent experience out the game. And while many guilds can be trusted to act in a fair and reasonable manner, it sounds to me like you're trying to defend those who can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    I know its coming and I've accepted it just fine. Just because it's coming doens't mean its good or any of the negative aspects of it suddenly vanish.

    With your logic whenver a change is coming we should just keep our mouths shut and "deal with it". In reality the reason for as stupid comment as that is the fact that you realized you can't actually counter the arguments made here but are unwilling to face the facts.
    No, my comment is saying that if you've made a conscious decision to hate the change before you've even given it try, odds are that you're going to sabotage your own experience just to prove yourself right. In the end though you're only screwing yourself. Your arguments have done absolutely nothing to bring me round to seeing things your way (in fact they've done the exact opposite). But then again I suspect you're not trying convince me so much as you're trying to convince yourself.

    I am not advocating that you don't question such a change. What I am advocating is that you keep an open mind (something of which I have seen zero evidence thus far).

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    So no survey, not even a bogus one. If you actually had one you'd gladly provide the source.
    are you actually dumb, or do you just pretend online?

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And yet Blizzard, who are the ones changing the system, have the actual data. You just have your opinion.
    Except we don't actually know whether they do have the data and if there is we don't know what that data shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No it wouldn't. I already walked you through step by step why. But I guess ignorant hand waving away trump reason and logic
    And I walked you through, guess your only answer to is to "insult"


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    This is just plain not true. While a SS may help you with a ticket, there is zero necessity for one and GMs will refer to actual logs even if you do present a SS (because, you know, a SS can be edited). A GM is not going to know whether the evidence exists or not until he/she has taken the time to examine those logs.
    SS is just a cause for investigation, don't provide it (or exact time and date of the convo) and they won't go through all the logs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    After having spent 20 minutes looking through the logs, compiling a report etc.
    Nope, no need to do such thing since the loot rules are as clear as they are with PL.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    So basically you're admitting that some guilds will abuse players as much as the system will allow them to. Worse yet you seem to think that they're entitled and justified in doing so. You just scored an own goal.
    If you call that abuse then yes. For others its called climbing up the ladder and getting better while helping out the guild.

    After all if you're there just to get loot, with your logic, you're abusing the guild. I guess you just forfeited the game there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Which will push them to leave the guild instead of hanging on in the vain hope that some day they'll be in the main raid team and get to benefit. Shitty guilds will no longer be able to string these suckers along for sole purpose of abusing their loot lockout. Oh noes /0\
    People won't be leaving the guild any more than they currently are with guilds "pushing them to leave the guild instead of raiding without loot".
    Yeah, literally can't use that as an argument when it bites you in the ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Effectively this just translates into a lower % chance of upgrade for an individual when they're relying on sponging off other character's loot lockout for the week. Face it, the game is designed so that each character is supposed to have 1 loot lockout per boss per week. Split runs, loot funnelling these are simply loopholes that are being exploited by players to try and beat the system. In the end it's not healthy for the game, it's not healthy for players, it's not healthy for anything.
    Effectively it actually just translates into lower effectiveness of loot for the guilds. With ML they wouldn't be relying on sponging off other characters loot, the guilds would use the loot effectively. RNG isn't effective in majority of the cases.

    Split runs aren't loop holes or exploits of any kind. They're players using the system to their advantage as much as they can. People will advantageous systems with PL in place in order to get maximum effectiveness out of it.

    Whether or not its "healthy" is irrelevant. If you actually want to make it healthy then you're just gonna loot lockout everything at whatever the highest possible level is (Account, IP, ID, you can go forever since people will find a way to overcome it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And this is worse than ML where loot can drop that isn't applicable for anyone in the raid, and there is bugger all you can even do about it how?
    Bring in people/characters that can use it, its very simple concept and something that can't be done with PL.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    We've been using PL since WoD. The loot master calls out items, we all roll for it if we need it, the loot master declares who wins it. The person who has the loot is sufficiently competent to walk up to the winner and hand it over. It's not hard.
    I never said it would be hard, I said its more complicated and time consuming than ML and thats a fact. You have the extra trade that is both more complicated and more time consuming than getting loot directly to inventory.
    It really is beyond me how that could be unclear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The objective of those guilds is not about saving time, it's about beating other guilds to the finish line. A casual guild that raids twice a week for 3 months to clear the instance is probably spending significantly less time than the world first guilds who play like 100 hours in a week and devote thousands of hour to preparation etc.
    I never claimed they want to "save time", I said they want to clear the instance asap (As Soon As Possible, in case that wasn't clear). First clears usually take more raid hours than the ones that just raid once or twice a week but they do clear it faster.

    Even majority of those casual guilds did one or two split runs and funneled the gear to their mains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And here we have the truth, spoken by your own word: PL/ML has no real effect on how long it takes guilds to clear instances.
    Is reading comprehension that hard for you? PL/ML has no real effect on how long it takes guilds to clear instances IF Blizzard balances it with the iLvl in mind.
    We have no data on how its going to be since we haven't cleared any raid instances yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There is data. I have a first hand witness account. What's more is that it totally makes sense.
    "And I have data of the opposite and everything that makes you wrong. I just won't share any of it with you"

    Good work pal, using your logic you just lost the game pants down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    You've decided you don't like the change, so you're trying to come up with heavily biased scenarios that feed your narrative. Sorry, but none of it is really convincing or sounds to me like you've tried to take a balanced view of things.

    I personally have no horse in this proverbial race. I don't raid mythic, and our heroic guild already uses PL. I couldn't care less if you guys got to keep ML or not. So I really am an impartial observer who is sitting here, reading your arguments and thinking W.T.F?!?

    It's like you've convinced yourself that this change is going to be terrible, and you'll be damned if you're going to allow it any possibility of proving otherwise. On principle. Because...reasons...
    I reviewed the change with no opinion of it, only to find it to have very few positive effects vs a shit ton of negative aspects to it. The facts speak for themselves and I listen to them, just because you don't personally like that doesn't mean I'm the one that has "decided" on things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Lol. When you say things like "they don't deserve loot" it tells me all I need to know. Maybe try to stop being so entitled and stop obsessing about what other people deserve. Play the bloody game and if an "undeserving" raider isn't pulling his weight, then replace him. This idea that you get to dictate how many rewards everyone else should guess based on your own less than impartial judgement is not healthy. We're all Blizzard customers and everyone deserves to get a decent experience out the game. And while many guilds can be trusted to act in a fair and reasonable manner, it sounds to me like you're trying to defend those who can't.
    Its a simple reward - effort structure. If you don't put in the required effort then you won't get the same reward either. It has nothing to do with entlitlement. It doesn't even take to count the fact that not all loot is equal to everyone which creates inconsistency in the base structure.

    I've never been in a loot council or a GM dictating what people get. Guilds will start, as I said earlier, using only players that are good for the progression on farm bosses leaving the rest out (just as you "suggested" after I already told it to you).

    All players are Blizzard customers, however that doesn't entitle you (look who talks about entitlement now) to getting all the rewards. Its really easy concept, do the work and you get the reward or are you next saying that everyone in every competition should get the same reward just because they attended? yeah, makes literally no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No, my comment is saying that if you've made a conscious decision to hate the change before you've even given it try, odds are that you're going to sabotage your own experience just to prove yourself right. In the end though you're only screwing yourself. Your arguments have done absolutely nothing to bring me round to seeing things your way (in fact they've done the exact opposite). But then again I suspect you're not trying convince me so much as you're trying to convince yourself.

    I am not advocating that you don't question such a change. What I am advocating is that you keep an open mind (something of which I have seen zero evidence thus far).
    I've made a conscious decision based on the facts, yes. We know how PL works as it has been in the game for a long time, I've used it on many occasions and it works for PUG runs but it is just inferior system for guilds.

    Obviously the facts haven't brought you around since you're the one who made up his mind a long time ago without the facts presented. Maybe you should actually list the positives and negatives to realize it yourself rather than just "oh its positive and I'm right" attitude.

    I had open mind about it, thought it out in every angle possible and this is the end result, its simply bad overall.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkt View Post
    are you actually dumb, or do you just pretend online?
    Nope, I asked you to provide proof for your claim on many occasions yet you didn't deliver.

    Better think again who the "dumb" one is.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Nope, I asked you to provide proof for your claim on many occasions yet you didn't deliver.

    Better think again who the "dumb" one is.
    Seeing as my 'claim' is actually a tag line from a popular TV show that you're continually trying to paint as a real reference to some actual data I'm going to stick with you as the dumb one, final answer. (and in case you're REALLY SLOW, 'final answer' doesn't actually mean that this is the last answer I'll ever give, it's actually a reference to another TV show.)

    As for your request for real data, tho, there's only like 1500ish guilds with mythic argus kills....about 10k or so with any mythic progress at all, which represents a fraction of the population, which means LITERALLY the majority of people won't care\even notice.

    Add this to the fact that these mythic guilds that apparently live and die by ML being available (hint: they don't) can LITERALLY still trade the gear someone gets from PL to another player and you have what amounts to a child (you) throwing a tantrum for no other reason that wanting to.


    reality suuuuux sometimes bud.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkt View Post
    Seeing as my 'claim' is actually a tag line from a popular TV show that you're continually trying to paint as a real reference to some actual data I'm going to stick with you as the dumb one, final answer. (and in case you're REALLY SLOW, 'final answer' doesn't actually mean that this is the last answer I'll ever give, it's actually a reference to another TV show.)

    As for your request for real data, tho, there's only like 1500ish guilds with mythic argus kills....about 10k or so with any mythic progress at all, which represents a fraction of the population, which means LITERALLY the majority of people won't care\even notice.

    Add this to the fact that these mythic guilds that apparently live and die by ML being available (hint: they don't) can LITERALLY still trade the gear someone gets from PL to another player and you have what amounts to a child (you) throwing a tantrum for no other reason that wanting to.


    reality suuuuux sometimes bud.
    So, as I said, no survey of any kind. You can reference random TV shows all you want, doesn't make your claim any less wrong.

    Mythic raiders are a fraction of the population, nobody questioned it. He said that they make a considerable portion of streamers, people that are being followed among other stuff, all that is factual. You saying he is wrong just means that you're wrong.

    Just like you are wrong about PL loot being tradeable as it's not if it's ilvl upgrade or azerite piece.

    Yeah, reality sucks when you're wrong. I guess you're used to it though.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    So, as I said, no survey of any kind. You can reference random TV shows all you want, doesn't make your claim any less wrong.

    Mythic raiders are a fraction of the population, nobody questioned it. He said that they make a considerable portion of streamers, people that are being followed among other stuff, all that is factual. You saying he is wrong just means that you're wrong.

    Just like you are wrong about PL loot being tradeable as it's not if it's ilvl upgrade or azerite piece.

    Yeah, reality sucks when you're wrong. I guess you're used to it though.
    it's amazing that people as dumb as you exist. If anything you're a testament to the idea that us beating darwinism was a bad thing.

    Streamers won't be going anywhere, because that's how they make money.

    The 4 guilds that people actually pay attention to and/or are in the world first race will manage just fine.

    Personal loot is absolutely tradeable, sans azerite gear, and the small percentage of time that azerite gear drops I'm certain that those players will manage.

    It's a non-issue for a non-intellectual.....which explains why you're so upset by it.

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by keedorin View Post
    I've never been an officer in a guild, so stop assuming. I've never had a problem with gear, and every guild I've been in so far ( I guild hopped a lot ), has been fair with loot besides that one time I won a mount roll but I didn't get it because I died early. I left that guild because the guild in general was toxic af and soon broke apart due to M Mammaroth.
    A fantastic example of why personal loot > master loot.
    I'm not a defender of Blizzard, I'm an opponent of stupid.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    A fantastic example of why personal loot > master loot.
    Yeah, surely the loot distribution model was toxic, not the people you should avoid ... "the guild in general was toxic af". Legit. Blame ML.
    ALTOHOLISM is not a crime!

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