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  1. #301
    Immortal Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsharna View Post
    Yeah, surely the loot distribution model was toxic, not the people you should avoid ... "the guild in general was toxic af". Legit. Blame ML.
    Its like you purposely tried to miss the point. When the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years, maybe its time to take away their ability to do that.

    Seriously, how was that not clear?
    I'm not a defender of Blizzard, I'm an opponent of stupid.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Its like you purposely tried to miss the point. When the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years, maybe its time to take away their ability to do that.

    Seriously, how was that not clear?
    Those situations are so uncommon that it doesn't really matter. I've done hundreds of PUG runs and only once or twice has the master looter been an issue.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Its like you purposely tried to miss the point. When the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years, maybe its time to take away their ability to do that.

    Seriously, how was that not clear?
    My own personal experience strongly opposes your own personal claim. That's 1 vs 1.
    You have no numbers to back your claim - Blizz does, but doesn't share. So all you are left with is your personal own salt. Nothing worthy discussing with.

    Quote Originally Posted by keedorin View Post
    I've never had a problem with gear, and every guild I've been in so far ( I guild hopped a lot ), has been fair with loot besides that one time I won a mount roll but I didn't get it because I died early. I left that guild because the guild in general was toxic af and soon broke apart due to M Mammaroth.
    Me missing the point. The irony is strong with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

    "In my singular experience playing this game that MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE play, that rarely happens. Must not be a problem."

    King of irony indeed.
    Last edited by Tsharna; 2018-07-12 at 06:39 PM.
    Why Blizz doesn’t care about your fanboy sub really. <- this is a link ...
    How whales are important to RoI. <- this is a link too ...
    How ActiBlizz is striving to make as little official profit as possible- taxes! <- also a link ...
    Google “scientific revenue” and “Skinner-box” yourself.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drylands View Post
    Those situations are so uncommon that it doesn't really matter. I've done hundreds of PUG runs and only once or twice has the master looter been an issue.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

    "In my singular experience playing this game that MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE play, that rarely happens. Must not be a problem."

    Last edited by Mirishka; 2018-07-12 at 06:37 PM.
    I'm not a defender of Blizzard, I'm an opponent of stupid.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post

    "In my singular experience playing this game that MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE play, that rarely happens. Must not be a problem."

    You just used anecdotal evidence yourself. My point is as valid as yours.

  6. #306
    Frankly, I don't see the problem with personal loot. As long as everyone gets a fair chance, it doesn't matter what loot system you use.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drylands View Post
    You just used anecdotal evidence yourself. My point is as valid as yours.


    I'm half-black in RL, live in the U.S. and have never been shot by a police officer. I guess police brutality against minorities must not be a real problem after all.

    /s
    Infracted
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2018-07-13 at 05:00 PM.
    I'm not a defender of Blizzard, I'm an opponent of stupid.

  8. #308
    It's okay guys, let's look at it from the bright side. Sure it's going to suck for all the decent guilds for a while, but good players adapt rather quickly. Meanwhile all the loudmouths screaming "good, no more toxic loot masters, finally I can raid" will get slapped hard with their own rainbow walls of bullshit because they will never get invited to decent guilds anyway and all the wannabe heroic guilds with abusive leadership will choke on their own greediness because all the players that join them will just take loot and leave so in the end, good guilds will endure just like they always did and all the other crowd will just become worse from their own greediness.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Ponky View Post
    It's okay guys, let's look at it from the bright side. Sure it's going to suck for all the decent guilds for a while, but good players adapt rather quickly. Meanwhile all the loudmouths screaming "good, no more toxic loot masters, finally I can raid" will get slapped hard with their own rainbow walls of bullshit because they will never get invited to decent guilds anyway and all the wannabe heroic guilds with abusive leadership will choke on their own greediness because all the players that join them will just take loot and leave so in the end, good guilds will endure just like they always did and all the other crowd will just become worse from their own greediness.
    Congratulations, you have reached the 7th, final, Stage of Grief, "Acceptance" !

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    Bye. Take the grey, green, and blue heroes with you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That was more a reference to the 'fringe spec'. You've got a great chance of ranking higher when the pool of players is 10% the size and the players playing that spec are likely knowingly lowering your raid dps through stupidity.
    That's a ridiculous way to look at it. Even in top guilds some people don't parse too well on first kills, due to sample size if nothing else, or the simple fact that progression kills tend to be messy and you value survival and mechanics over padding. That doesn't make them bad, and anyone with solid 99 or 100 parse for every boss can be nothing but good. The world isn't only made up of ''Method-tier'' and ''shit''.

    And of course gear helps. Gear allows you to easily skip the 8th cone on Argus. Gear allows you to survive more mistakes on bosses like Aggramar or Kin'garoth. Gear allows you to compensate for the lower damage output of your lesser skilled raiders compared to top guilds. It is important to the progression of most Mythic guilds. We'll see how the PL change impacts this, but the intention is definitely to slow down gearing for individual players. And it's going to feel bad when a BiS trinket, weapon or Azerite armor for your spec is looted by someone else that can't trade it and won't use it.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by vashe9 View Post
    And yes they are trying to fix bad guilds behavior who do boosts with an army of rerolls...
    You know rerolled loot can't be traded, right? Like, at all?

    Are you sure you raid?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

    The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.
    So they're doing it in order to get away with doing less work... and they're telling us it's entirely for our benefit and we should be grateful.

    I dunno man, you're not really selling it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    [IMG]https://images2.imgbox.com/61/e7/pJa8kps3_o.gif[IMG]

    I'm half-black in RL, live in the U.S. and have never been shot by a police officer. I guess police brutality against minorities must not be a real problem after all.

    /s
    Someone stole my loot once. Therefore, all people who use Master Looter are ninjas and thieves and the game will be better off without giving players the choice to use that system!

    "Opponent of stupid", indeed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You know... I'm seeing people time and time again that this change is being made for the majority of the playerbase. The casuals who don't do hardcore progression, who don't do split raids or funnel gear.

    That argument doesn't really hold water either, because Personal Loot is still the default gearing method. You have to manually change to Master Loot. These casual guilds are ACTIVELY deciding to use ML over PL. So even the casual players seem to want and prefer ML.

    If the vast majority of players really preferred Personal Loot, wouldn't it be super easy to find a guild that uses it? On the other hand, if it's really that hard to find a guild that prefers Personal... doesn't that sort of imply that the majority of players actually DON'T prefer it?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy Scratch View Post
    You know rerolled loot can't be traded, right? Like, at all?

    Are you sure you raid?

    - - - Updated - - -

    So they're doing it in order to get away with doing less work... and they're telling us it's entirely for our benefit and we should be grateful.

    I dunno man, you're not really selling it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Someone stole my loot once. Therefore, all people who use Master Looter are ninjas and thieves and the game will be better off without giving players the choice to use that system!

    "Opponent of stupid", indeed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You know... I'm seeing people time and time again that this change is being made for the majority of the playerbase. The casuals who don't do hardcore progression, who don't do split raids or funnel gear.

    That argument doesn't really hold water either, because Personal Loot is still the default gearing method. You have to manually change to Master Loot. These casual guilds are ACTIVELY deciding to use ML over PL. So even the casual players seem to want and prefer ML.

    If the vast majority of players really preferred Personal Loot, wouldn't it be super easy to find a guild that uses it? If it's really that hard to find a guild that prefers Personal... doesn't that sort of imply that the majority of players actually DON'T prefer it?
    That's cute and everything, but I never implied nor suggested that all people who use ML are thieves/etc. I've had plenty of positive raiding experiences where ML was done fairly and without incident. But too many people on this forum assume that their experience = everyone's experience. "I haven't seen a lot of stuff ninja'd, so it must not be a problem."

    When in fact, part of the reason we've been given so many tools/options for things like loot was - per Blizzard's own admission - to allow for players to better "police themselves".

    Loot drama has always been a part of this game - there were 'name and shame' topics on the official forums as far back as vanilla. It is what it is. Personal Loot isn't perfect far from it), but then, what loot system is? Group loot is still at the mercy of RNG where you might get 3 tokens no one needs, or a hunter that needs the tank trinket ('my pet needs STA too' lol), while ML slows the raid down (allocating the drops) and requires someone trustworthy/unbiased.

    Also, I think Vashe9 mean rerolled toons, but I could be wrong.
    I'm not a defender of Blizzard, I'm an opponent of stupid.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    That's cute and everything, but I never implied nor suggested that all people who use ML are thieves/etc. I've had plenty of positive raiding experiences where ML was done fairly and without incident. But too many people on this forum assume that their experience = everyone's experience. "I haven't seen a lot of stuff ninja'd, so it must not be a problem."

    When in fact, part of the reason we've been given so many tools/options for things like loot was - per Blizzard's own admission - to allow for players to better "police themselves".

    Loot drama has always been a part of this game - there were 'name and shame' topics on the official forums as far back as vanilla. It is what it is. Personal Loot isn't perfect far from it), but then, what loot system is? Group loot is still at the mercy of RNG where you might get 3 tokens no one needs, or a hunter that needs the tank trinket ('my pet needs STA too' lol), while ML slows the raid down (allocating the drops) and requires someone trustworthy/unbiased.

    Also, I think Vashe9 mean rerolled toons, but I could be wrong.
    You are so wrong and self-assuring in your perception (I struggle to call it "thinking") it doesn't even make sense to discuss any of your statements. It's your bubble and you are keeping it intact by all means necessary. Good luck in life.
    Why Blizz doesn’t care about your fanboy sub really. <- this is a link ...
    How whales are important to RoI. <- this is a link too ...
    How ActiBlizz is striving to make as little official profit as possible- taxes! <- also a link ...
    Google “scientific revenue” and “Skinner-box” yourself.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Loot drama has always been a part of this game - there were 'name and shame' topics on the official forums as far back as vanilla. It is what it is. Personal Loot isn't perfect far from it), but then, what loot system is? Group loot is still at the mercy of RNG where you might get 3 tokens no one needs, or a hunter that needs the tank trinket ('my pet needs STA too' lol), while ML slows the raid down (allocating the drops) and requires someone trustworthy/unbiased.
    But what exactly is the problem with the current situation of being able, as a guild, to choose between PersoLoot and masterloot?
    Why force everyone to use PersoLoot on guilds? People who have an issue with their Lootmaster or the way your guild handels loot can just join another guild?


    Me getting the Item getting a small upgrade < A raidmember getting the item who benefits more
    This way we get to progress faster and make our raidteam stronger.
    This is the reason why the new system is bad. But this is not the POV of casuals who just care what items t

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy Scratch View Post
    So they're doing it in order to get away with doing less work... and they're telling us it's entirely for our benefit and we should be grateful.

    I dunno man, you're not really selling it.
    What part of "everybody wins" did you fail to comprehend? Clearly you're more interested in trying to distort stuff other people to suit your narrative than bother to understand what we're trying to tell you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy Scratch View Post
    You know... I'm seeing people time and time again that this change is being made for the majority of the playerbase. The casuals who don't do hardcore progression, who don't do split raids or funnel gear.

    That argument doesn't really hold water either, because Personal Loot is still the default gearing method. You have to manually change to Master Loot. These casual guilds are ACTIVELY deciding to use ML over PL. So even the casual players seem to want and prefer ML.

    If the vast majority of players really preferred Personal Loot, wouldn't it be super easy to find a guild that uses it? On the other hand, if it's really that hard to find a guild that prefers Personal... doesn't that sort of imply that the majority of players actually DON'T prefer it?
    The reason competitive guilds use ML has bugger all to do with what anyone prefers and entirely to do with being able to optimise gear distribution for maximum performance. Competitive people will always choose advantage over what they prefer, which ends up detracting from the gaming experience.

    Let's just be honest about this: No one prefers seeing all the best loot consistently going to other people over getting their fair share for themselves. But we do it willingly because it's how you game the system. That's just a sign of a bad system.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Let's just be honest about this: No one prefers seeing all the best loot consistently going to other people over getting their fair share for themselves. But we do it willingly because it's how you game the system. That's just a sign of a bad system.
    I have tanked this entire expansion, which put me really low on the loot prio list. Did it suck sometimes? Sure. Was it the right thing to gear the dps first? Yes. Would I prefer to continue doing it that way? Yes. Because it isn't about my gear, it's about killing bosses. Also no offense but what is the best gear depends strongly on your class. On-use trinket with a 2 min CD? Great if you dps cd is 2 min as well. Way less good if not. ML gave us flexibility in priority and assignment. It allowed to quickly gear another DK when you were approaching aggramar and giving the Crit/Vers ring to the feral instead of the Fury warrior. If they don't get secondaries somewhat in line (and even though they try, we all know they probably won't) a lot of jewelry is going to be vendor trash instead of easy upgrades.
    Warlock/Main,Druid/Alt, Logs to come. Meine Gilde rekrutiert. Bei Interesse kontaktiert mich hier, unsere Offiziere in Game oder bewerbt euch direkt auf unserer Website.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy Scratch View Post
    The downside is that Azerite gear is untradeable.
    And ilvl doesnt mean its better. Escpialyl not for trinkets or rings and ndecks which got no main stast, 900 item with 2best satst >905 item with 2worst stast.
    But if was hueg upgrade for someone else now you cant give ti them anymore. Like hiw hard is it for people to egt that?

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greif9 View Post
    I have tanked this entire expansion, which put me really low on the loot prio list. Did it suck sometimes? Sure. Was it the right thing to gear the dps first? Yes. Would I prefer to continue doing it that way? Yes. Because it isn't about my gear, it's about killing bosses. Also no offense but what is the best gear depends strongly on your class. On-use trinket with a 2 min CD? Great if you dps cd is 2 min as well. Way less good if not. ML gave us flexibility in priority and assignment.
    I totally get that. I really do. What the anti-PL crowd need to figure out though is that this is only an issue in a paradigm in which you have a choice to move gear around. If you take away that choice then you no longer have to worry about all that. You no longer have to choose between a better, more equitable gaming experience and a more successful gaming experience. If you get a gear upgrade, you get to feel good because you are able to contribute more.

    Essentially what this change means is that Mythic guilds are going to end up having more evenly geared players with less of a gear disparity between your superstars and everyone else, which can only be a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greif9 View Post
    It allowed to quickly gear another DK when you were approaching aggramar and giving the Crit/Vers ring to the feral instead of the Fury warrior. If they don't get secondaries somewhat in line (and even though they try, we all know they probably won't) a lot of jewelry is going to be vendor trash instead of easy upgrades.
    With PL you'll still be able to trade stuff and gear new characters quickly. The limitation on rapid gearing would generally only be early in the raid tier. So, for example, my hunter might get one high ilevel Haste/Vers ring which is useless to him, but from there on out I will be able to trade any other rings as long as I hang on to the high ilevel one.

    Lastly, while it is 100% true that ML is better than PL at optimising gear distribution for maximum gearing up speed, it actually doesn't control that speed at all. That is because the speed of gearing up is dependent on a number of other factors (quantity of gear that drops, ilevel of gear, ease of killing bosses etc). And because ML allows you to funnel gear, in effect all that it actually accomplishes is creating a gear disparity between people in a group.

  19. #319
    Just a small thing: You don't need to hang on to useless items of high ilvl. Blizz has stated that you can trade non Azerite pieces, if you ever had an equal or higher item level item of that slot soulbound. Vendoring them changes nothing.
    Concerning your assertion that it only matters because I compare it to ML: Sure, if PL is the only option, than it is the best option as well, but it introduces another level of RNG on top of the not exactly few we already have. Think back to nighthold. Let's say you have a fury warrior and a Retadin in your group. Elisande drops a convergence of fates and Gul'dan his melee on use trinket. The difference in what your raid gets out of these two items between the ret getting them and the warrior getting them is obscene.

    Powerful trinkets tend to be extremely good on certain classes, while being meh on others, so that PL can really hurt your raid by throwing the wrong items at people. Bonus rolls are a good way to control gear disparity within a guild, and honestly I have never seen it as that much of a problem.
    Warlock/Main,Druid/Alt, Logs to come. Meine Gilde rekrutiert. Bei Interesse kontaktiert mich hier, unsere Offiziere in Game oder bewerbt euch direkt auf unserer Website.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Drylands View Post
    Those situations are so uncommon that it doesn't really matter. I've done hundreds of PUG runs and only once or twice has the master looter been an issue.
    They are uncommon just because few people who openly admit to abuse others claim so ? Ye sure we gonna belive some random forum abusers over Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cysia View Post
    And ilvl doesnt mean its better. Escpialyl not for trinkets or rings and ndecks which got no main stast, 900 item with 2best satst >905 item with 2worst stast.
    But if was hueg upgrade for someone else now you cant give ti them anymore. Like hiw hard is it for people to egt that?
    Clearly you dont have beta Access. Else you woudlnt spread lies. Due to how Blizzard changed secomdaries atm if something is 5 itlv higher regardless of secondaries IT Has its like 95percent of time upgrade for you . 10 itlv higher is likely 99,9 percent IT will be upgrade. Secondaries are almost redundant at this point. But this was the only way they could fight with legion gearing up fiasco.

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