Beta Key Giveaway Week 3: Winners have been selected!

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  1. #421
    I don't know. You better ask them.

  2. #422
    No ML option on any client as of today. I guess that answers the OP.

  3. #423
    Legendary! Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    That’s completely innacurate. I put my own gaming experience in the hands of toxic players. I did that, not master loot. I joined a random guild that had the raid progress I wanted at the time and I knew they used master loot. It was my choice to join, master loot didn’t make me do anything.

    On the other hand, if you say master loot allowed these problems to happen then what about personal loot? Back when I pugged a lot of m+/raids I was harassed a ton for loot. I’ve had players tell me I’m garbage because I didn’t give them loot they wanted because I needed it. There is very obvious harassment issues with personal loot especially within pugs which I believe the majority of people participate in. Not only that but it promotes this toxicity while also promoting loot whoring and selfishness. Another example is transmog, I’ve had people tell me to fuck off because they wanted something for transmog when it was a huge upgrade for me. That’s fine, I get it’s there loot but that’s a very selfish mentality to have.

    And now players are going to have that exact mentality going into heroic/mythic raid guilds. “What’s mine is mine everyone else can fuck off” isn’t a mentality that’s healthy or positive in an environment that should be promoting teamwork to the best degree possible. Yeah this really sounds great for the game. Exactly what it needed.

    Master loot and personal loot should be options. Neither of these should be forced on the game. Do you remember how bad forced group loot was in LFR? People would roll need on shit they didn’t need just to spite people. So, these should both be options so guilds/pugs can go with whatever option they please. If you decide to join a guild that uses ML and it’s a no name guild then any consequences that come with that are on you, not the system. It works the same way with personal loot, if you join a guild that uses PL and you end up asking people for gear they don’t need that you do and they don’t give it to you, those are consequences you need to accept as your own fault for joining that environment.
    Those same jerks you describe can be found in any guild with an actual loot system also. Have you never been harassed over winning a drop over someone else because you purchased it with DKP/EPGP or were awarded it by the council? You've never seen people throw tantrums the first time a trinket drops they feel they deserve just because they are top DPS? Personal loot won't fix those individuals who are not team players. That's up to your guild to weed those people out.

    What it fixes is the distribution being decided by a few players who may or may not be toxic when making their decisions.

    I remember group loot. Every guild would stack people to roll for each other and trade because you'd have 4-5 groups in there doing the same thing. It was turned into personal loot because people abused the system. Remember the guild that was suspended for a week for doing it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Except ML and loot council were fair if you were in a fair guild which large majority are, just because you didn't feel like its fair (aka "I did good, give me loot" when you died to first mechanic) doesn't mean it wasn't fair.
    Abusive players will still find ways to abuse even with forced PL, as shown multiple times in this thread.
    You can't abuse personal loot. You can be a dickhead but the loot system didn't cause that player to act that way. They would've done the same in any loot system.
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  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    You can't abuse personal loot. You can be a dickhead but the loot system didn't cause that player to act that way. They would've done the same in any loot system.
    You could be a dickhead with ML but the loot system didn't cause that player to act that way, you can be a dickhead with PL too. So with your logic no player abused ML, they were just "dickheads".
    "Abusive" people will stay "abusive" and the loot system change won't change that.

    Forced PL for guilds just isn't a good change.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You could be a dickhead with ML but the loot system didn't cause that player to act that way, you can be a dickhead with PL too. So with your logic no player abused ML, they were just "dickheads".
    "Abusive" people will stay "abusive" and the loot system change won't change that.

    Forced PL for guilds just isn't a good change.
    If the loot system change causes someone to be a dickhead then they always were one. They just fooled you into thinking otherwise. Now that they can't control you their true self comes out. Just like a control freak girlfriend or boyfriend. They will be super happy and nice all the time until they are told no. Then they lose their shit. Entitlement, spoiled, Daddy never told them no, Mom ran over their pet frog. Whatever you want to call it.
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  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    If the loot system change causes someone to be a dickhead then they always were one. They just fooled you into thinking otherwise. Now that they can't control you their true self comes out. Just like a control freak girlfriend or boyfriend. They will be super happy and nice all the time until they are told no. Then they lose their shit. Entitlement, spoiled, Daddy never told them no, Mom ran over their pet frog. Whatever you want to call it.
    If you didn't notice people were "dicks" with ML then you won't notice it with PL. You'll be oblivious to the fact that you're being screwed over (which is a rare case, its far more common for people to think they're being screwed over when its just the guild looking out for itself and YOU being the "dick", which is why some people are supporting the change)
    The "dicks" that actually abused ML will abuse PL just the same, you either deal with it or get kicked/leave the guild just like before. Forced PL for guilds won't change that in any way. You can have wet dreams about it doing something but in reality it won't, its just a matter of time before the supporters realize it.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    That's up to your guild to weed those people out.

    What it fixes is the distribution being decided by a few players who may or may not be toxic when making their decisions.
    So you trust the same people to make good judgment calls on people (ginv, gkick) but not on loot distribution? How ...?
    ALTOHOLISM is not a crime!

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    If you didn't notice people were "dicks" with ML then you won't notice it with PL. You'll be oblivious to the fact that you're being screwed over (which is a rare case, its far more common for people to think they're being screwed over when its just the guild looking out for itself and YOU being the "dick", which is why some people are supporting the change)
    The "dicks" that actually abused ML will abuse PL just the same, you either deal with it or get kicked/leave the guild just like before. Forced PL for guilds won't change that in any way. You can have wet dreams about it doing something but in reality it won't, its just a matter of time before the supporters realize it.
    Except you won't be able to trade items until you already have a better ilevel piece. So that really won't be happening as often as you might think. Former tier item slots aren't tradeable so that's 6 slots already out of the equation. Weapons don't warforge so you either have the weapon and can trade or you don't.

    Bullies won't have the same power they had.
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  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Except you won't be able to trade items until you already have a better ilevel piece. So that really won't be happening as often as you might think. Former tier item slots aren't tradeable so that's 6 slots already out of the equation. Weapons don't warforge so you either have the weapon and can trade or you don't.

    Bullies won't have the same power they had.
    Oh they will have the same power, it'll just manifest differently.

    People won't be able to trade items that are ilvl upgrades to them, the bullies will force to trade everything one can and if you don't already have ilvl from M+ etc. then they'll likely won't even take you into the raid if they have other options.

    "Bullies" will be "bullies", no matter what loot system there is as long as they have a choice in the matter. If you make the entire game LFR without the option to kick and all loot non-tradeable then you've successfully beaten the "bullies" but at the cost of playerbase.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    there is nothing you can do to change it
    Bitch until it gets changed

    Do you think it won't ever get changed? If so welcome to WoW!
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  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    agreed.

    find me a top guild where the loot council weren't the first guys decked out. with whatever excuses they could find...
    Define top, my top 1000 guild has a loot council consisting of a tank and a healer. Both are very low on loot prio. I even got all the tanking trinkets I really wanted.
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  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    What it fixes is the distribution being decided by a few players who may or may not be toxic when making their decisions.
    What it fixes affected few while negatively impacting the many. If the guild was being that bad, you leave. There are still many, many other guilds to join. I have been in over a dozen guilds over the years, and I've only run into it once which prompted me to leave. Never had a problem finding another guild.

    This is, in reality, Blizz being lazy.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    This is, in reality, Blizz being lazy.
    It's a lazy solution to a problem that isn't a problem.

    Blizzard seems to have a hard on for stopping split raiding and even openly asked the community around the launch of Legion for ideas to curb its prevalence. Forced PL was one of the proposed "solutions" and it was debated with exactly the same rebuttals this thread has produced for the last 20-something pages.

    Ultimately, the consensus was that it was generally a bad idea and the people it would most negatively affect -- Mythic raiding guilds -- represented such a small fraction of the playerbase that the need for loot control on a larger scale for everybody outweighed their desire to stop guilds from gaming the system.

    But alas, we were wrong. Forced PL is now a thing and we're just going to have to deal with it. Why bother trying to find real solutions to problems when you can slap a fucking band aid on it and wash your hands of it? Split raiding has effectively been "solved" and the message is clear:

    "Just keep grinding our stupid fucking game. We don't give a shit what you do in it as long as it keeps you subbed. Oh, and make sure you buy the next pretty pony we put up in the lootshop. "

    The minority is essentially told to fuck off and deal with it while the far greater number of casual players are none the wiser as they likely never really gave a shit about ML to begin with (and, as this thread has heavily proven... mostly perceived it to be unfair anyway). Since the latter is the only demographic Blizzard cares about these days, lazy decisions like this will continue to occur.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2018-07-19 at 11:45 PM.

  14. #434
    I don't raid so I don't really have a stake in this, but I'm not sure why it's a good idea on Blizz's part to remove ML as an option. Sure, I've been in shitty guilds (who hasn't?) where loot systems were abused, but that was a choice. I got gear eventually and I was a lot more concerned about progression than I was about whether I had the highest ilevel in the guild. These days, everything I run uses personal loot, but ML should still be an option for guilds who plan out their optimisation that way.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It's a lazy solution to a problem that isn't a problem.

    Blizzard seems to have a hard on for stopping split raiding and even openly asked the community around the launch of Legion for ideas to curb its prevalence. Forced PL was one of the proposed "solutions" and it was debated with exactly the same rebuttals this thread has produced for the last 20-something pages.

    Ultimately, the consensus was that it was generally a bad idea and the people it would most negatively affect -- Mythic raiding guilds -- represented such a small fraction of the playerbase that the need for loot control on a larger scale for everybody outweighed their desire to stop guilds from gaming the system.

    But alas, we were wrong. Forced PL is now a thing and we're just going to have to deal with it. Why bother trying to find real solutions to problems when you can slap a fucking band aid on it and wash your hands of it? Split raiding has effectively been "solved" and the message is clear:

    "Just keep grinding our stupid fucking game. We don't give a shit what you do in it as long as it keeps you subbed. Oh, and make sure you buy the next pretty pony we put up in the lootshop. "

    The minority is essentially told to fuck off and deal with it while the far greater number of casual players are none the wiser as they likely never really gave a shit about ML to begin with (and, as this thread has heavily proven... mostly perceived it to be unfair anyway). Since the latter is the only demographic Blizzard cares about these days, lazy decisions like this will continue to occur.
    this minority has been negatively influencing whole game for years now spreading toxicity far beyond just mythci raiding

    its good that minority god put to the corner where it belong - it was always ridiculous that minority was influencing how majority played the game

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    this minority has been negatively influencing whole game for years now spreading toxicity far beyond just mythci raiding

    its good that minority god put to the corner where it belong - it was always ridiculous that minority was influencing how majority played the game
    The minority has also been positively influencing the game for years now, spreading information and knowledge far beyond just mythic raiding.

    That minority is also far greater than the minority that is "toxic" and "spreading toxicity", given we haven't actually seen any evidence of anyone being toxic here, just people feeling they didn't get what they thought they deserved. The two are vastly different, but you either don't want to accept it or simply don't understand the difference.

    Minority always influences how majority plays the game. No matter what game you look the minority, or "pros" as people call them, are influencing how the game is played by the majority. The more knowledgeable are giving out information by guides, streams, private coaching lessons etc. and its just natural and happens everywhere, in every aspect of the world.

    Again, this change does nothing good for the game and the people wanting the change are being hurt as well even if you don't know it yet.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    The minority has also been positively influencing the game for years now, spreading information and knowledge far beyond just mythic raiding.

    That minority is also far greater than the minority that is "toxic" and "spreading toxicity", given we haven't actually seen any evidence of anyone being toxic here, just people feeling they didn't get what they thought they deserved. The two are vastly different, but you either don't want to accept it or simply don't understand the difference.

    Minority always influences how majority plays the game. No matter what game you look the minority, or "pros" as people call them, are influencing how the game is played by the majority. The more knowledgeable are giving out information by guides, streams, private coaching lessons etc. and its just natural and happens everywhere, in every aspect of the world.

    Again, this change does nothing good for the game and the people wanting the change are being hurt as well even if you don't know it yet.
    but is in line with other changes that prove that blizzard see guilds as nothing but toxic and needing deep complete rework.

    loot system was just begining - now we will see much deeper changes starting with what they did to guilds.

    its pretty obvious that PL was just a prelude to deep game changing system changes.

    because blizzard has to get rid of abusement and toxicity if they want to keep people playing the game

    the part about people being hurt ? how - just because you assume people will stop making guides and theorycraft ? lol ye sure - ofc they wont now that so many people are making a living from making youtube /patreon videos.

    and even if they did - blizzard couldnt be more happier about it because then at least some partial "mysticism" would come back to game instead people knowing 100% what avaits them when patches land.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2018-07-20 at 01:19 PM.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    but is in line with other changes that prove that blizzard see guilds as nothing but toxic and needing deep complete rework.

    loot system was just begining - now we will see much deeper changes starting with what they did to guilds.

    its pretty obvious that PL was just a prelude to deep game changing system changes.

    because blizzard has to get rid of abusement and toxicity if they want to keep people playing the game

    the part about people being hurt ? how - just because you assume people will stop making guides and theorycraft ? lol ye sure - ofc they wont now that so many people are making a living from making youtube /patreon videos.

    and even if they did - blizzard couldnt be more happier about it because then at least some partial "mysticism" would come back to game instead people knowing 100% what avaits them when patches land.
    Oh, so now you have some psychic abilities to predict what Blizzard does and why on top of knowing how to keep people playing the game. Lawl

    People who wanted PL loot, aka people who didn't get loot via masterlooter, won't get spots in raids anymore because the guilds would rather take people who are actually good for the progress. Its that simple.
    I never said anyone would stop making guides or theorycraft, I dunno how bad your reading comprehension is but if thats what you got from my message then I'd say its in the negative scale.

    If people wanted "mysticism" then they would stop reading guides and watching spoiler videos. Yet they all watch and read because they don't want mysticism, they don't want to have to go around the world figuring out what to do in a quest or wipe to a mob because they don't know what buttons to press - quite the opposite.
    I'd say your prediction/psychic skills are just as bad as your reading comprehension.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    If people wanted "mysticism" then they would stop reading guides and watching spoiler videos. Yet they all watch and read because they don't want mysticism, they don't want to have to go around the world figuring out what to do in a quest or wipe to a mob because they don't know what buttons to press - quite the opposite.
    There are such games up. I played one for any years. They have a very dedicated fan base of around ... well ... let's just say 100 chars (with multilogging) is considered a "wooooo effect".
    ALTOHOLISM is not a crime!

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    this minority has been negatively influencing whole game for years now spreading toxicity far beyond just mythci raiding

    its good that minority god put to the corner where it belong - it was always ridiculous that minority was influencing how majority played the game
    Way to completely miss the point, dude. It's not so much the minority influencing the majority as it is a really lazy fucking way to solve a problem that isn't a problem. There is literally no motivation Blizzard would have to make this change outside of diminishing the returns from split raiding. Instead of looking for solutions which flat out remove one of the founding tenants of loot distribution which have been in the game for fourteen fucking years, they go for the least involved approach possible.

    Adding insult to fucking injury, the Devs refuse to even acknowledge the change as if they're silently trying to guage community response before coming out with some half assed justification once progression raiding in BfA starts.

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