Druid Woes

[Jaewalk]

Now that Druids are shaping up to be one of the worst classes across all roles for BFA; what will you be rerolling to? And if not why?

[Hach]

What makes you think druids are one of the worst off classes going into BFA? Is it tuning? 'Cause, as far as I'm aware, druid specs haven't seen much change in general for the next expansion.

Either way, I doubt I'd be dropping my druid now, of all things. She's been my main since the start of TBC and that hasn't changed since; not even once. Both Guardian and Feral are my two favourite specs to play in the entire game, and that's with having multiple max-level alts of every class. Hell, I have four 110 druids, so what does that tell you?

[Kelzúl]

Now that Druids are shaping up to be one of the worst classes across all roles for BFA; what will you be rerolling to? And if not why?

Not really sure where you're getting this from, I've been on the PTR and Beta for the past couple of weeks and can tell you that boomkins are in a decent place and there are many other classes that fall lower in the rankings than druids..

[nlc]

I do wonder if they've gone too far nerfing guardian raid utility and it has never had anything commending it as a serious M+ tank but the other specs look fine to me. I'll be maining my druid for sure.

[Argenon]

Personally, I am looking forward to Balance in BfA.

[jimrustle]

I'm enjoying restoration on the PTR, the biggest nerf that Druid's got over all is how frenzied regeneration functions. In my opinion this will hit hardest in arenas with restoration, but should be survivable so long as our heals don't get nerfed. The restoration spec offered to feral and boomkin really needs another HoT, lifebloom preferably.

[Jaewalk]

Now that Druids are shaping up to be one of the worst classes across all roles for BFA; what will you be rerolling to? And if not why?

Guardian Druids - By every expert ranked last for tanks, lowest damage, most boring, utility gutted, even BR costs 30 rage

Restoration Druid - Survivability gutted, hots (rejuv 15 sec wtf heals less than spammable PWS) gutted, mobility gutted, utility gutted (cast time on brez c'mon), cooldown tranquility gutted with cast time.. even holy priests offer more utility for a raid now and parity+ on raid cooldowns.

Feral Druid - people real about this role play a rogue- all three are better, offer more utility and are more viable.

Balance - got re-worked looks "decent" on PTR...

so at best out of four specs balance is "decent" looking for bfa.

yeah- I'm really frustrated as ive invested so much in mine

[dkderek]

What they have done/are doing to bear right now is just laughable. Whoever is in charge of tuning Guardian and Feral don't even work in the same building.


In a time where Mythic+ exists, having a tank with absolutely no utility doesn't work. They also have no raid utility. They also do absolutely no damage. Their damage intake is mediocre at best, they have no self healing. Better send Guardian more nerfs.

[Polarthief]

Now that Druids are shaping up to be one of the worst classes across all roles for BFA; what will you be rerolling to? And if not why?

Balance is looking great, Guardian seems fine, and I don't see too many issues with Resto.

Unless you're taking Feral and saying it's the only spec of the entire class, which is ridiculous hyperbole, you're just talking nonsense.

Restoration Druid - Survivability gutted, hots (rejuv 15 sec wtf heals less than spammable PWS) gutted, mobility gutted, utility gutted (cast time on brez c'mon), cooldown tranquility gutted with cast time.. even holy priests offer more utility for a raid now and parity+ on raid cooldowns.

Oh yes because having ridiculous amounts of mobility, on top of a blink, and letting HoTs heal non-tanks while other healers don't have any of that luxury and have to hardcast all targets, and almost every top healer in M+ was a Resto Druid, and you WONDER why they had to gut so much of Resto. Problem is it's really hard to balance around one healer having free reign of mobility and HoTs.

What they have done/are doing to bear right now is just laughable. Whoever is in charge of tuning Guardian and Feral don't even work in the same building.

In a time where Mythic+ exists, having a tank with absolutely no utility doesn't work. They also have no raid utility. They also do absolutely no damage. Their damage intake is mediocre at best, they have no self healing. Better send Guardian more nerfs.

Utility of a Guardian: Stampeding Roar, Battle Rez, Knockback
Utility of a Death Knight: Battle Rez, AoE Grip

As far as damage goes, that's all on tuning. If you're worried about damage before the pre-patch isn't here, you sure as shit were not around during WoD's pre-patch when Hunters were unplayable.

Feral seems pretty blah but I don't see what's super horrible about Guardian. Most tanks seem pretty gutted because they don't want tanks having ridiculous magic mitigation anymore, and unfortunately, healing and passive full DR is magical mitigation.

[Jaewalk]

Utility of a Guardian: Stampeding Roar, Battle Rez, Knockback
Utility of a Death Knight: Battle Rez, AoE Grip

WRONG

DEATH KNIGHT 11
Stun Immunity:
AOE grip:
ST grip
ST stun
Aoe Snare
Parry CD/DPS cd
Self-sustain to carry healer:
HP boost with healing received increase (helps carry a healer)
Mechanic avoidance/magic DR (absorb)
Sap
Brez

DRUID 4

ST Stun or knockback (needs to talent for it)
AOE disorient
AOE sprint (nerfed to 15 yrds)
Battle Rez costs 30 rage now

Guardians even lost AOE snare LOL, frenzied regen is terrible @25% health, lower charges and longer cooldown..

[Arlee]

I'm not rerolling. There are some distinct things I don't like about what they are doing with Bear right now but they are livable. Also I'm not a cutting edge of progression guild so rerolling to a better tank isn't a huge deal. Also if Blizz keeps true to their pattern they'll make balance passes and sometimes even significant class mechanic changes during the xpac so I'm hopeful once the sample size is larger they'll adjust things.

[Hunternation]

Now that Druids are shaping up to be one of the worst classes across all roles for BFA; what will you be rerolling to? And if not why?

I love how you posted this here and on the WoW forums and the replies are the same across the board. There always kids like you who QQ right before an expansion release in hopes of unneeded buffs. Also to respond to the other wildly retarded comment you made about "anyone serious about this role would just play a rogue" Ferals have unmatched spread pressure compared. I feel like you don't even know what game your playing.

[Polarthief]

DEATH KNIGHT 11
Stun Immunity:
AOE grip:
ST grip
ST stun
Aoe Snare
Parry CD/DPS cd
Self-sustain to carry healer:
HP boost with healing received increase (helps carry a healer)
Mechanic avoidance/magic DR (absorb)
Sap
Brez

Just a heads up, I don't know the changes for DKs, so I'm just going by Legion's stuff.

- Tied to a defensive. You can't always outright use it for stun immunity.
- Yes, this is their biggest utility.
- Also decent utility, but nowhere near as big as Gorefiend's.
- Meh. You're counting very small stuff now.
- Snare from what? A talent? If you're gonna talk about talents for Druid, you can't just skip over talents for DK.
- I mean ROTS is arguably a better CD. Even still, you didn't bother to mention Incarnation for Druids or the fact that they have CDs too.
- Which is being nerfed so DKs don't dominate magical mitigation. We also have a much larger HP pool and can mitigate physical damage way better overall.
- Equivalent to DRs, both give you eHP. Druid has plenty of DR cooldowns and even passive base DR.
- Alright I'll give you this one too, though it's not intended to be like this in raiding (similar to how Immunities don't cheese anymore).
- Uh, what?
- Which we have to.

DRUID 4

ST Stun or knockback (needs to talent for it)
AOE disorient
AOE sprint (nerfed to 15 yrds)
Battle Rez costs 30 rage now

- But you're giving up one or the other so you still are guaranteed to have one of them.
- Which is still helpful, moreso in M+ than anything but it's still good.
- Can't comment on the range. Tiger's Dash is for some reason on Guardian talents which makes no sense. Until I get proof the range increasing talent is legit gone, I'm going to assume it's still massive.
- This is actually pretty bullshit TBH, especially with a cast time.
Now I won't deny the fact that there's also a bunch of utility you simply can't do in Bear Form (which means it's useless for in-combat M+ stuff), but there's still some useful things you will have:
- Hibernate (CC for Beast/Dragonkin)
- Soothe (Enrage dispel)
- Entangling Roots (CC for pretty much any melee/close range target)
- Curse/Poison Dispel

The best way to fix Bear utility is to allow all of these spells to be castable in Bear Form, maybe also allowing Dash to be usable in Bear form too (maybe at a reduced effect?) to give it some decent movement too. AFAIK, Druids are still the only class that's completely hindered (instead of bolstered) by their shapeshifting/stances. Warriors and Priests used to have these limitations too, but they've all since been removed by either removing spells that they shouldn't be using out of spec, or replacing them with ones that matter (Priests now have Shadow Mend over Flash Heal for example). Again, Druids are still the only one that cannot use their entire toolkit in a form. That's the issue with the utility, not the amount of utility itself.

[Vanhyali]

If you don't like it feel free to re-roll, I for one think the specs looks fine and it seems many other do too. If I would re-roll though I would probably re-roll to monk.

[Rhaxus]

Just a heads up, I don't know the changes for DKs, so I'm just going by Legion's stuff.

- Tied to a defensive. You can't always outright use it for stun immunity.
- Yes, this is their biggest utility.
- Also decent utility, but nowhere near as big as Gorefiend's.
- Meh. You're counting very small stuff now.
- Snare from what? A talent? If you're gonna talk about talents for Druid, you can't just skip over talents for DK.
- I mean ROTS is arguably a better CD. Even still, you didn't bother to mention Incarnation for Druids or the fact that they have CDs too.
- Which is being nerfed so DKs don't dominate magical mitigation. We also have a much larger HP pool and can mitigate physical damage way better overall.
- Equivalent to DRs, both give you eHP. Druid has plenty of DR cooldowns and even passive base DR.
- Alright I'll give you this one too, though it's not intended to be like this in raiding (similar to how Immunities don't cheese anymore).
- Uh, what?
- Which we have to.



- But you're giving up one or the other so you still are guaranteed to have one of them.
- Which is still helpful, moreso in M+ than anything but it's still good.
- Can't comment on the range. Tiger's Dash is for some reason on Guardian talents which makes no sense. Until I get proof the range increasing talent is legit gone, I'm going to assume it's still massive.
- This is actually pretty bullshit TBH, especially with a cast time.
Now I won't deny the fact that there's also a bunch of utility you simply can't do in Bear Form (which means it's useless for in-combat M+ stuff), but there's still some useful things you will have:
- Hibernate (CC for Beast/Dragonkin)
- Soothe (Enrage dispel)
- Entangling Roots (CC for pretty much any melee/close range target)
- Curse/Poison Dispel

The best way to fix Bear utility is to allow all of these spells to be castable in Bear Form, maybe also allowing Dash to be usable in Bear form too (maybe at a reduced effect?) to give it some decent movement too. AFAIK, Druids are still the only class that's completely hindered (instead of bolstered) by their shapeshifting/stances. Warriors and Priests used to have these limitations too, but they've all since been removed by either removing spells that they shouldn't be using out of spec, or replacing them with ones that matter (Priests now have Shadow Mend over Flash Heal for example). Again, Druids are still the only one that cannot use their entire toolkit in a form. That's the issue with the utility, not the amount of utility itself.

i agree with bears needing to be able to use their whole toolkit within bearform to not be seriously hampered. at least brez is instant within bear form, which is a great step forward in that regard

[Gwhorn]

Now that Druids are shaping up to be one of the worst classes across all roles for BFA; what will you be rerolling to? And if not why?

True or not, I would still play my feral druid. The feral gameplay is just addictive, it's the class the most fun to play for me by far. And except if you plan to do high level PVE, the DPS does not really matter...

[Jaewalk]

Just a heads up, I don't know the changes for DKs, so I'm just going by Legion's stuff.


- Meh. You're counting very small stuff now.
- Snare from what? A talent? If you're gonna talk about talents for Druid, you can't just skip over talents for DK.
- I mean ROTS is arguably a better CD. Even still, you didn't bother to mention Incarnation for Druids or the fact that they have CDs too.
- Which is being nerfed so DKs don't dominate magical mitigation. We also have a much larger HP pool and can mitigate physical damage way better overall.
- Equivalent to DRs, both give you eHP. Druid has plenty of DR cooldowns and even passive base DR.
- Alright I'll give you this one too, though it's not intended to be like this in raiding (similar to how Immunities don't cheese anymore).
- Uh, what?
- Which we have to.


Now I won't deny the fact that there's also a bunch of utility you simply can't do in Bear Form
- Hibernate (CC for Beast/Dragonkin)
- Soothe (Enrage dispel)
- Entangling Roots (CC for pretty much any melee/close range target)
- Curse/Poison Dispel

we are talking BFA here... the stuff Guardians cant do in bearform doesn't even matter/count. Rage of the sleeper is gone in BFA, guardians ability to AOE snare is gone in BFA. Self sustain nerfed for BFA. Even with the state Guardian druids were in at the end of legion - they were only really leveraged for AOE sprint which was dismantled for BFA. Guardian druids are non-existent in high keys right now- and looks that way for BFA as well.

I want Guardians to be awesome! I've invested more time then I care to admit in mine- but they are just looking horrible going into BFA and by every measure/expert bottom of the barrel... especially for someone who loves M+ and wants to be successful there. In Raids they will be okay I guess. But that's not even the most popular content anymore given the rise of the MDI.

[xpose]

I love the new balance, only gripe I have is they continue to make us change out between AOE/ST in talents but if the current talents stick balance is going to be pretty good for mythic + which is what I plan to primary do for content.

[exochaft]

I heard the ret paladin wheelchair memes are coming back, for what it's worth.

For Guardian, I really do wish some of those utility spells could be used in Bear Form, such as our dispel and Hibernate. One of the problems with M+ is that specs like Blood DK's are way too good for such content due to how they scale and the tools they bring (been that way since MoP, I had to Feral to get realm best time for CM's running with a Blood DK). Hopefully, Blizz doesn't pull a "All tanks need to rely on healers a lot now... except class X and Y, you won't." They've had quite a problem where mechanics that are supposed to be dangerous for all tanks are trivialized by some, even for bears with MoU in the first half of Legion.

[Polarthief]

the stuff Guardians cant do in bearform doesn't even matter/count.

Why not? Especially as a pre-pull or out of combat in M+, there have been so many times I was thankful to have Entangling Roots (that one dryad and elemental in DHT instantly comes up mind), Travel Form (also with Tiger's Dash apparently being a Guardian Talent, the default will be Wild Charge most likely which is a whole slew of possibilities, including leaping or opposite-life-gripping for mobility), and even Regrowth spam has definitely saved a few allies from dying on a bad Bursting or Grievous pack.

I was just pointing them out because you were HEAVILY biasing DK while barely going into detail for guardian or even outright leaving things out that we had. If you're going to point out tiny DK things, you need to point out tiny Bear things too. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Should we have our entire toolkit in every form so we're not a fraction of a full class? I think so, yes. But we can't lie about the overall design. Guardian is meant to be a really nice wall with high armor and hp, more of both than any other tank, plus we still have some form of healing (which is magical mitigation, all of which is being nerfed across all tanks, not just guardian). You can't really complain about having the two core stats for any tank being higher than all the others while then complaining about how DKs have better healing (to compensate for their lack of mitigation) or shorter cooldowns (also how they're built).

TL;DR: We could definitely use a bump in utility, but a huge portion of the utility you posted is either so minor it doesn't really matter or not actually utility. Also, as a tank, your first and most important two things are: keeping enemies' attention away from your allies and not dying/making the healer's/healers' job(s) easier. Utility typically falls to your DPS and sometimes healers.