Why are the Horde always the aggressors

[Mixxy]

The Horde is under no order to inform the Alliance of anything and everything it does. The Alliance responded to sending an invasive, covert force to subvert Horde activities by casting subterfuge aside and arriving with naked intent.

They weren't there to "invade" or "subvert". All the quest text super strongly implies that the Horde showed up first and started mining, then Alliance intelligence learned about that operation and sent spies in to - you know - spy. They snuck around gathering information, stealing bits of Azerite here and there to figure out what was going on, then the Horde discovered them there and responded by ordering the Horde player to kill on sight. And then was the Alliance player brought in.

Obviously it's a bit touch-and-go, as with all ingame portrayals of events, but all the quest text on both sides points towards the Horde being the first to attack in Silithus, while the Alliance were just trying to figure out what they were doing with this brand new, unknown mineral that had suddenly started growing around the base of Sargaeras' sword.
That last part is pretty important. After all the events of Legion, do you really think it would be reasonable for the Alliance to just go "Oh some weird shit has appeared near the GIANT TITAN SWORD THAT BELONGED TO THE OVERLORD OF THE BURNING LEGION. Fuck it who cares I'm sure it's fine lol."?


And sure you can say that the Horde is under no obligation to cooperate with the Alliance... but imagine they had for just a second. With that knowledge shared, and both sides cooperating over how Azerite is being handled... No need for spies. No conflict would've happened in Silithus. No need for an attack on Teldrassil because - with both sides coming to an agreement over how Azerite is used - Sylvanas doesn't need to try and preserve her monopoly on the stuff.
And hey, look at that. With no attack on Teldrassil, there's no attack on Lordaeron. And bam! No massive world-war fuelled by magical WMD's when the planet is already the closest to dying it's ever been before.
Isn't it nice when we all work together? Instead of just blindly attacking everyone who comes near you out of some paranoid need to have all of the power and control?

[Xath]

1st rule of MMO. never argue with Felplague


Alterac valey - Started by Alliance
1st Facttion war wotlk - end of MoP - Started by alliance
Silithus - Started by Alliance
Ashenvale conflict - Started by alliance (NEs fucked up)
Stormheim - Horde was attacked by Alliance


actually alliance is bigger agressor than the Horde.

Are you literally trolling or do you just know nothing of the history of the game?

1. Alterac Valley was started by the Horde. The Dwarves mounted an expedition to look for resources and were attacked rather than saying hey we are kind of here the horde just attack them.

2. In what world was the Wrath hostilities kicked off by the Alliance? It was started by the Forsaken aka the people the horde now follow without question

3. Silithus if you mean the current one was absolutely not started by the Alliance. The alliance were looking to see what the horde were doing and then were attacked this is before the player is sent in at which point it has escalated. The alliance didn't attack the goblins the horde attack alliance scouts first

4. Ashenvale? You mean the horde invading and trying to take land they knew was held by the night elves for their war machine due to lumber?

5. Stormheim is literally the only one you are even semi accurate on and that was genn acting against orders and turned out to be a rather necessary thing since Sylv was planning to enslave the Valkyr Queen, but yeah that one was lead by Genn so congratz one of the 5 entire instances in wow you could find turned out to be right.

[Mixxy]

how can you be so ignorant, FelPague? After reading all your posts on this topic, I only see one braindeadly biased opinion.

You are given straight facts, that Alliance gets quest to ATTACK goblins. There are no quests sort of
"Humble and glorious Felpague, bold representative of the brave Alliance faction! We need you to try and negotiate with those Horde dogs (actually, no, same players as you are, who pay same subscription and are not deserved to be harassed for liking red colour) Nevertheless! Don't act rashly and don't kill them, you are not savage, are you?".

But oh noes! Instead you are directly asked to fuckin kill civil miners for doing their job: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=50047/free-samples
AND destroy their equipment: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=50046/its-a-sabotage.

So don't try to feed people bullshit like "Alliance did nothing wrong". Alliance did tons of wrong, in Stormheim is the closest i remember. And saying now "It was Greymane, who attacked the Horde, I never did" is like saying "It's Sylvannas, who attacked Teldrassil, I never did". So take a deep breath, calm the fuck down and hug your warlock waifu pillow.

Like I said, the quest text pretty heavily implies that the Alliance quests to kill miners is in response to Horde attacking spies that, so far, hadn't actually hurt anyone.

The Horde quest text talks about how there are "Alliance spies skulking around," doesn't mention any sort of attacks or murders, and then instructs the Horde player to go kill them.
The Alliance quest text warns the player to "Watch out for Horde aggression," implying that the Horde have been aggressive, and instructs them (again, probably after unprovoked attacks against the Alliance) to take a more direct approach.

Hell, even the tense lines up in that regard. The Horde text mentions Alliance spies sneaking into the camps. The Alliance text specifically says "My spies have already infiltrated."

So it really seems like the Horde side in Silithus happens just a little bit prior to the Alliance side.

- - - Updated - - -

5. Stormheim is literally the only one you are even semi accurate on and that was genn acting against orders and turned out to be a rather necessary thing since Sylv was planning to enslave the Valkyr Queen, but yeah that one was lead by Genn so congratz one of the 5 entire instances in wow you could find turned out to be right.

And it was probably after the Alliance found evidence of Sylvanas' plans in Azsuna. Originally, before Blizzard came up with level scaling, Azsuna was to be the starting zone of the Alliance in the Broken Isles, meaning that they absolutely had that intel when they attacked in Stormheim.

[Gramlen]

They weren't there to "invade" or "subvert". All the quest text super strongly implies that the Horde showed up first and started mining, then Alliance intelligence learned about that operation and sent spies in to - you know - spy.

Oh?

My agents have infiltrated the camp, but the clock is ticking and we need to get our hands on some extracted ore samples fast. In other words, I need someone who can take the direct approach.

That's not spycraft, friend. That's wetwork.

They snuck around gathering information, stealing bits of Azerite here

By murdering miners.

then the Horde discovered them there and responded by ordering the Horde player to kill on sight.

Insurgent forces from a historically hostile force attacked on sight while engaging in covert ops including, but not limited to, murder? Noooo.

Obviously it's a bit touch-and-go, as with all ingame portrayals of events, but all the quest text on both sides points towards the Horde being the first to attack in Silithus, while the Alliance were just trying to figure out what they were doing with this brand new, unknown mineral that had suddenly started growing around the base of Sargaeras' sword.

It isn't touch-and-go, it's clear and present. Nathanos wants the Horde to 'dispose' of any Alliance forces encountered. Shaw wants the Alliance to use 'the direct approach' to take what the Horde's already gathered. Both are telling you to murder, but both are saying it without saying it. The only difference is that the Alliance got there second.

That last part is pretty important. After all the events of Legion, do you really think it would be reasonable for the Alliance to just go "Oh some weird shit has appeared near the GIANT TITAN SWORD THAT BELONGED TO THE OVERLORD OF THE BURNING LEGION. Fuck it who cares I'm sure it's fine lol."?

The same can be said of the Horde. After all the events of Legion, do you really think it would be reasonable for the Horde to just go "Oh some weird shit has appeared near the GIANT TITAN SWORD THAT BELONGED TO THE OVERLORD OF THE BURNING LEGION. Fuck it who cares I'm sure it's fine lol."?

And sure you can say that the Horde is under no obligation to cooperate with the Alliance... but imagine they had for just a second. With that knowledge shared, and both sides cooperating over how Azerite is being handled... No need for spies. No conflict would've happened in Silithus. No need for an attack on Teldrassil because - with both sides coming to an agreement over how Azerite is used - Sylvanas doesn't need to try and preserve her monopoly on the stuff.

Years of constant, unceasing warfare on every inch of land on Azeroth - and beyond - renders such an idea a fairy tale. There are enough people on both sides of the faction divide, beyond faction leaders, that peace wouldn't last; and now, there is a potential conflict-ending resource in play.

It's a cute idea, admittedly, but when you're on Round 40 of a fistfight, you don't stop swinging after brass knuckles have been introduced.

Isn't it nice when we all work together?

Azeroth doesn't work that way, and it isn't limited to one side being the cause.

[Deleted]

Are you literally trolling or do you just know nothing of the history of the game?

1. Alterac Valley was started by the Horde. The Dwarves mounted an expedition to look for resources and were attacked rather than saying hey we are kind of here the horde just attack them.

2. In what world was the Wrath hostilities kicked off by the Alliance? It was started by the Forsaken aka the people the horde now follow without question

3. Silithus if you mean the current one was absolutely not started by the Alliance. The alliance were looking to see what the horde were doing and then were attacked this is before the player is sent in at which point it has escalated. The alliance didn't attack the goblins the horde attack alliance scouts first

4. Ashenvale? You mean the horde invading and trying to take land they knew was held by the night elves for their war machine due to lumber?

5. Stormheim is literally the only one you are even semi accurate on and that was genn acting against orders and turned out to be a rather necessary thing since Sylv was planning to enslave the Valkyr Queen, but yeah that one was lead by Genn so congratz one of the 5 entire instances in wow you could find turned out to be right.

1) Dwarfs were on horde terriory and trying to took their resources

2) Varian himself declare a full open war against horde

3) Actually alliance part take 1st where alliance players start to kill goblin miners.

4) NEs fucked up horde by ignoring trade deals during droughts

5) Alliance attacked waaaay before they know why Sylvanas is in SH. Even Genn said that like 3 quests before end of alliance story champain in SH he has no idea why Sylvanas is in SH.

There are much more instances. didnt write them all

Will add one more. Jaina (trying to be neutral) Just allow alliance forces to be garrisoned in her city.

[Whitedragon]

You can't call "Horde" aggressors in the first and second war if you can't call "Alliance" aggressors in TFT. As far as WoW goes, Alliance was the aggressor in WotLK as well. Varian literally declared war on the Horde. As far as war crimes, Garithos was literally doing that with the blood elves. Genocide against an entire race is most definitely a war crime. I think he would have gotten along quite well with Garrosh.

It wasn't the whole race, it was Keal's force for ignoring a direct order, which while kind of scummy is well within a commanders rights to dispense punishment. And the closest the Alliance came to being the aggressor in TFT was Daelin and his daughter helped you kill him... you also forget that Sylvanas flat out betrays and kills her allies right after the battle for lordaeron...

[FelPlague]

how can you be so ignorant, FelPague? After reading all your posts on this topic, I only see one braindeadly biased opinion.

You are given straight facts, that Alliance gets quest to ATTACK goblins. There are no quests sort of
"Humble and glorious Felpague, bold representative of the brave Alliance faction! We need you to try and negotiate with those Horde dogs (actually, no, same players as you are, who pay same subscription and are not deserved to be harassed for liking red colour) Nevertheless! Don't act rashly and don't kill them, you are not savage, are you?".

But oh noes! Instead you are directly asked to fuckin kill civil miners for doing their job: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=50047/free-samples
AND destroy their equipment: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=50046/its-a-sabotage.

So don't try to feed people bullshit like "Alliance did nothing wrong". Alliance did tons of wrong, in Stormheim is the closest i remember. And saying now "It was Greymane, who attacked the Horde, I never did" is like saying "It's Sylvannas, who attacked Teldrassil, I never did". So take a deep breath, calm the fuck down and hug your warlock waifu pillow.

ok so
1. the horde and the alliance have allready been in combat long enough for the alliance to gather azerite then send it back to stormwind so you going there and killing goblins is not the START
1.A the horde one happens abit before the alliance one, so again even after you arrive the horde has allready been killing spies with their charecters
1.B The quest does not tell you to kill goblins, just to collect azerite, sadly the only way to pick it up is to kill them, kinda wish they allowed you to collect it off the ground
2. the quests literally tell you that the horde has been killing spies for awhile now to try and stop the alliance from learning of azerite
3. the horde quest giver nathanos tells you "Kill any alliance you see skulking about" while the alliance quest giver (i think anduin) tells you to be careful of horde agression.
4. again if you read my posts stormheim was a fuck up but a very minor one compared to this, as it was to stop sylvanas from "stealing the power of the V-"


here you go, do abit of listening
Sylvanas literally is like "how many can i slaughter" and Sylvanas is "how many can i save" the last thoguht he has is how many can he kill and he instantly stops the thought.

Will do abit of time looking for other stuff where it is and when, asking nobbel on twitter if he can direct me to some specific stuff.


oh and yeah you say i have been given facts but literally no one has shown facts, and your links even point to the horde attacking first, and AGAIN
"Careful of horde agression"= defend yourself
"Kill any alliance skulking about"= kill anyone that moves

[Whitedragon]

1) Dwarfs were on horde terriory and trying to took their resources

2) Varian himself declare a full open war against horde

3) Actually alliance part take 1st where alliance players start to kill goblin miners.

4) NEs fucked up horde by ignoring trade deals during droughts

5) Alliance attacked waaaay before they know why Sylvanas is in SH. Even Genn said that like 3 quests before end of alliance story champain in SH he has no idea why Sylvanas is in SH.

There are much more instances. didnt write them all

1) sad to have to tell you this but EK is alliance lands... and even still the forstwolves attack archaeologists for being there...

2) and then Jaina puts a stop to him, says sorry, and teleports them out, this is after they go through a laboratory filled with human experiments

3) A. Untrue horde kills the spies out in the filed first, and B. the Goblins attack on sight and no Alliance commander tells you to kill them.

4) NE's didn't stop trading, they just had never given enough to make the horde happy, Thrall even says this at some point. Horde wanted more, Nightelves where only willing to give naturally fallen trees.

5) And the horde forces broke the peace pact that was made after SoO by openly attacking Alliance forces in ashran.... remind me again when they made another treaty after that? oh that's right they didn't.

[FelPlague]

On a dominantly Horde-controlled continent. Would the response from the Alliance be the same if the Alliance had discovered massive Azerite deposits erupting from the Plaguelands? Incredibly doubtful and speculative.



I've seen this quite a bit ... what exactly determines that the Horde must report it's findings and discoveries to the Alliance? Was there a brokerage signed by Vol'jin or Thrall that stated that any activities must first be cleared and permitted by the existing High King before beginning?



"Oh hey, what's this resource with unknown and far reaching capabilities? It's just sitting in my backyard. Hmmm... no, no I think I'll leave it there."



Were you expecting an insurgent force to be received with a handshake? Spinning it in the manner you chose is easily reversed; 'The Alliance sends an invasive covert ops team with unknown intentions to a Horde-operated dig site, before being driven off by Horde military.'



The Horde is under no order to inform the Alliance of anything and everything it does. The Alliance responded to the resistance of an invasive, covert force to subvert Horde activities by casting subterfuge aside and arriving with naked intent.



Pretty much. Political maneuvering of a teenager to be used as a pawn while she removes both threat of open mutiny (in the Desolate Council) and invasive presence and influence (in the now-dead Menethil). He can't lash out without looking like he's openly trying to cause discord and strife within the Forsaken, leading to open war wherein the Alliance are naked aggressors, while Sylvanas cleans house. Is it cold? Ruthless? Callous? Yes. But Sylvanas is a corpse with her tunnel-vision set on survival. We've all been debating using human, mortal concepts such as empathy, compassion and mercy. I'm willing to bet that she set those aside in a basket at the door.

Cutting off Teldrassil's port limits the access to Azerite - an unknown and potent resource - to a potential enemy whom has already lashed out at the Horde (and it's Warchief) during a world extinction event. Whether or not the Horde is directly responsible for the burning of Teldrassil is something we're all going to have to wait a few weeks to see for ourselves.



He was there to kill her (re)dead, c'mon now.

1. yes, speaking that even after silithus the alliance wants to make peace with the Horde.
2. again we go back to
The world reaches a point of world peace, all the nations are at peace after removing the nukes from all countries.
An alien spaceship lands in the middle of the pacific ocean, neutral territory, the russians notice it first and go start collecting it.
The americans find out and go to see whats up, they send a boat into this neutral territory to find out whats going on.
The boat is then gunned down on sight and the russians refuse to talk about what is going on there or what is there.
so the americans are forced to move in with a full military force to secure this.

If the two are at peace why does the horde need this, why does the horde need to hide this from the alliance? why does the horde need to hide this resource, kill those who wish to find it, and keep it all for themselves IF THEY TOTALLY ARE NOT GOING TO USE IT ON ANYONE!

3. IT IS THE BLOOD OF THE PLANET MANGI LITERALY TELLS THEM TO STOP

4. Again horde operated digsite in a neutral terrirtory... hmmmm wonder what happend the last time the horde started digging randomly in a neutral zone, IT PROB WENT AMAZ-

Oh uhh... oh... I umm... hm...

5.If they are supposed to be allies pushing to peace what reason does the horde have to keep secrets of what they are doing in neutral zones.
You see a guy smoking a blunt in a park, you as an officer walk up and they quickly hide it in their bag
1"Hello sir what are you doing"
2"NOTHING"
1"Can i check your bag i want to make sure thats true?"
2"NO YOU CANT THIS IS ABUSE, ABUSE, HELP ME"
"Sir i just want to make sure you arnt doing anything illegal here on public property"
2*pulls a gun and shoots*
now i find it funny you say 1. is the aggressor...


6.lol mhm....

[Gramlen]

1) sad to have to tell you this but EK is alliance lands... and even still the forstwolves attack archaeologists for being there...

So, is Kalimdor Horde lands?

[Mixxy]

Insurgent forces from a historically hostile force attacked on sight while engaging in covert ops including, but not limited to, murder? Noooo.

There was no murder though. We've been over this. The Alliance spies didn't attack anyone, the player did. And the quest text strongly points towards the Alliance player showing up AFTER the Horde starts killing Alliance spies.

Of course you'd know that if you actually read my entire post.

Hell, if the Alliance spies were killing Goblins, SI:7 would ALREADY have their hands on some "extracted ore samples". But the quest straight-up, plain as day tells us that no. The Alliance HASN'T gotten their hands on any Azerite yet. Which means no attacks on Goblin miners yet.

Which, hey look at that... means the Horde were the aggressors.

It isn't touch-and-go, it's clear and present. Nathanos wants the Horde to 'dispose' of any Alliance forces encountered. Shaw wants the Alliance to use 'the direct approach' to take what the Horde's already gathered. Both are telling you to murder, but both are saying it without saying it. The only difference is that the Alliance got there second.

Nathanos learns that there are Alliance spies sneaking around the camps and orders you to kill them.
The Alliance questgiver says he's already tried using spies, that the spies weren't able to get any samples (read: didn't kill any Goblins), and sends you in to 'take the direct approach' while warning you to be careful of Horde attacks.

The Horde quest happens first. There's simply no other way to look at it. Without ignoring facts.

The same can be said of the Horde. After all the events of Legion, do you really think it would be reasonable for the Horde to just go "Oh some weird shit has appeared near the GIANT TITAN SWORD THAT BELONGED TO THE OVERLORD OF THE BURNING LEGION. Fuck it who cares I'm sure it's fine lol."?

The problem isn't that the Horde looked into Azerite. The problem is the Horde, for some reason, expected the Alliance to just... not care. That's phenomenally stupid.

Years of constant, unceasing warfare on every inch of land on Azeroth - and beyond - renders such an idea a fairy tale. There are enough people on both sides of the faction divide, beyond faction leaders, that peace wouldn't last; and now, there is a potential conflict-ending resource in play.

So... the Horde are looking to make nukes... and they're... not the aggressors?

[Deleted]

1) sad to have to tell you this but EK is alliance lands... and even still the forstwolves attack archaeologists for being there...

2) and then Jaina puts a stop to him, says sorry, and teleports them out, this is after they go through a laboratory filled with human experiments

3) A. Untrue horde kills the spies out in the filed first, and B. the Goblins attack on sight and no Alliance commander tells you to kill them.

4) NE's didn't stop trading, they just had never given enough to make the horde happy, Thrall even says this at some point. Horde wanted more, Nightelves where only willing to give naturally fallen trees.

5) And the horde forces broke the peace pact that was made after SoO by openly attacking Alliance forces in ashran.... remind me again when they made another treaty after that? oh that's right they didn't.

1) EK is not purely Alliance territory

2) That war was until end of MoP. so Jaina stop nothing.

3) Still killing unarmed miners. so nice. It was horde operation, Alliance should not intervine.

4) Doesnt change a thing.

5) Ashran is 50/50

[Mahmeya]

As we've seen in MoP, the moment goblins start digging anywhere, they should be stopped for the good of the world.

[schwarzkopf]

The Horde is 'chaotic' and thus more likely to have individual factions head off in their own random direction. This will lead them to do noble things but evil things that don't represent the view of the majority.

The Alliance is 'lawful' and thus more likely to operate as a group. This often leads to them being slow to act, and more governed by rules than honour.

The combination has been very useful for the survival of both groups over the years.

[FelPlague]

1st rule of MMO. never argue with Felplague


Alterac valey - Started by Alliance
1st Facttion war wotlk - end of MoP - Started by alliance
Silithus - Started by Alliance
Ashenvale conflict - Started by alliance (NEs fucked up)
Stormheim - Horde was attacked by Alliance


actually alliance is bigger agressor than the Horde.

1.you mean where the orcs who had recently moved there slaughtered the dwarves that had lived there for generations?
2.LOL the wotlk saw the end of first faction war, allmost until the twilight council ruined it, both factions claiming war on eachother, so literally neither sides fault cause they thoguht the other side attacked them.
3. uhh no, started by horde, nice try buddy.
4. LOLOLOL yes the ashenvale conflit of the night elves defending their woods from the invading orcs who just came to our world to completly destroy the world and replace every race
5. only one you got, 1/5 i mean no where near a passing mark, but good attempt.

[Mixxy]

3) Actually alliance part take 1st where alliance players start to kill goblin miners.

That's just straight-up wrong.

Horde quest text tells you that Alliance spies are sneaking in, and tells you to kill them on sight to prevent them from getting any Azerite.
Alliance text tells you they already tried sending in spies, that didn't work and they still need to get some Azerite (because of "Horde aggression"), and then tells you to go in and kill Goblins for it.

The Horde quest undeniably happens first.

[FelPlague]

1) EK is not purely Alliance territory

2) That war was until end of MoP. so Jaina stop nothing.

3) Still killing unarmed miners. so nice. It was horde operation, Alliance should not intervine.

4) Doesnt change a thing.

5) Ashran is 50/50

3. unarmed? yeah no they arnt unarmed, they have explosives, shredders, and pickaxes, which really can be weapons
4. yes it changes everything.
5. uhh no horde literally 100% the alliance went to get an artifact to use on the iron horde and instead of TRYING TO TALK ABOUT IT they decided to just start killing the alliance for it. and before you compare it to silithus

Ashran= artifact to beat iron horde= horde is told= horde does not trust= horde starts slaughtering alliance
silithus= artifact to umm.. something= alliance is not told= alliance is confused= alliance goes to check out what is going on= horde starts slaughtering the alliance that come to spy.

[Mixxy]

3) Still killing unarmed miners. so nice. It was horde operation, Alliance should not intervine.

AFTER the Horde had killed Alliance scouts.

Scouts who were trying to scout out the giant titan weapon that tried to murder the planet and was oozing some brand new unheard of magic substance that could be (and turns out TO be) incredibly goddamn dangerous in the wrong hands.

[FelPlague]

1) Dwarfs were on horde terriory and trying to took their resources

2) Varian himself declare a full open war against horde

3) Actually alliance part take 1st where alliance players start to kill goblin miners.

4) NEs fucked up horde by ignoring trade deals during droughts

5) Alliance attacked waaaay before they know why Sylvanas is in SH. Even Genn said that like 3 quests before end of alliance story champain in SH he has no idea why Sylvanas is in SH.

There are much more instances. didnt write them all

Will add one more. Jaina (trying to be neutral) Just allow alliance forces to be garrisoned in her city.

1. other way around
2. you forget this was his first time in undercity, seeing his people turned into abominations, seeing his people experimented and tortured.
3. no, the horde one takes place first, sorry buddy.
4.they didnt
5.no they didnt, you seem to forget the letter in azsuna.

much more? yeah sure

Yes that sorta ruined her neutrality, but if you really wanna get into theramore, the issue is not the attack the issue is the nuking, with full intent on killing as many civilians as possible.

also coime on your name is a chocolate bar.

[Mixxy]

4) Doesnt change a thing.

It super does though. The trade deal was "We'll give you every tree that falls down naturally."

When the Horde attacks and starts chopping down trees, they're the ones breaking the trade deal.

The Horde didn't attack because the NElves stopped sending lumber. The Horde attacked because Garrosh suddenly decided he wanted MORE lumber.