Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Kithelle]

Just think about it, they wanted peace after MoP And They Had it, what did the alliance do in the meantime?

Jaina threatens to end the horde and tries to convince Varian to kill the horde leaders at the end of SoO
Greymane assault horde troops unprovoked and loses the sky breaker
Caila Menethil tries to cause mass rebelions and defections within lordaeron and the forsaken to the alliance
They attack and murder innocent goblin miners who are mining for Azerite

This was all after ensuing peace with the alliance after Garrosh. The Horde didn't provoke the alliance one more time after that

Varian chose to spare the Horde, simple end of that discussion.

Sylvanas was trying to enslave a entire race for her own selfish immortality, so in the end something good happened. (Not to mention this was after she stabbed the Alliance in the back)

Mass rebellion? Since when are a few civilians consider a mass rebellion?

Actually the Alliance was there to destroy the mining equipment, it was the Goblins who decided to attack the Alliance...maybe they shouldn't have risked their lives against a superior foe?

See how easy it is?

[Kwento]

Oh, and as a little aside, I find it really amusing how so many QQ threads about Teldrassil pop up everyday, and yet hardly any spring up about the assault on the Undercity. I understand that the Burning of Teldrassil can be seen as tragic (and until the scenario drops I don't feel like weighing in on that aspect,) but both the Undercity and Teldrassil are valid targets of war.

They both are, but it’s understandable why Alliance players are that saddned with what they were served. Not only do they get their capital destroyed, but that one act of retaliation that they got was also screwed over by Sylvanas, turning it into half-victory.
As a player who hates all current races equally (exept for trolls, I love trolls), I’m happy to see the two ghost-cities go.

[Tabrotar]

Doffen please stop, you've provided nothing of quality in pages. Personal complaint sure, but its a bit annoying weeding through all the muck.

OT: The attack is justified on the grounds of SI:7 killing miners and the Alliance weaponizing the Azerite before the Horde. Most importantly though, it is justified due to Teldrassil being the last Alliance hub on Kalimdor. Its a bit like Theramore; a bastion of Alliance forces way too close to the Horde capitol.

Oh, and as a little aside, I find it really amusing how so many QQ threads about Teldrassil pop up everyday, and yet hardly any spring up about the assault on the Undercity. I understand that the Burning of Teldrassil can be seen as tragic (and until the scenario drops I don't feel like weighing in on that aspect,) but both the Undercity and Teldrassil are valid targets of war.

Ah yes who exactly was it again who brought the first Azerite war machine to field it begins with a H and ends with a E but i somehow seem to forget it over all the Horde appologists constantly screaming bullshit.

[Super Dickmann]

Make up your mind. Now the story and leveling is a shared thing, while last post you said it was two different things.


I don't know, you tell me. I am not the one ignoring what they said and how the Legion story was set up.

I was trying to show you how your position was contradictory, but apparently that flew over your head. I'll go step by step this time.

Your claim is that Blizzard have confirmed that the canonical story order is Azsuna happening before Stormheim in the release version and that the Alliance of Azsuna version is canon. This must be your claim as it's that of the guy you're defending.

The video you link to prove this says that their original intent was to have a leveling order from Azsuna into Stormheim, but that they gave up on this late into development. They later say that any order works well now for leveling. They say exactly nothing about story or the Alliance. We're talking about something that didn't make it into live and doesn't relate to story at all. We can now adopt one of two positions.

1. Story and leveling order is the same. In this case, when they changed the leveling order into making any combination applicable, they also allowed any story to be applicable. This means you're wrong, since the release version doesn't have a canonical order that Blizzard have announced.

2. Story and leveling order are different. They never mention story order in the video. Therefore the video is useless as proof of your claim, since it only discusses leveling and says nothing about story. Everything from that point on is you inferring something out of the devs saying nothing.

Whichever position we take, neither gets us to the point where the Alliance version is canonical, therefore even if we ignore the issues with the above, your source is still useless as proof of the initial claim.

[Aucald]

It's funny to see that posters who are rambling wall of texts seem to try convince themselves first with that attempt. It's a good way to hide insults though, since you simply can't expect a mod to read all that stuff. My fedora tipping shrek image got me an infraction though, should have hid it better, kek.

I may not read absolutely everything, but that's what reports are there to cover - so it would be ill-advised to try to "hide" insults or other rule-breaking behavior, because the odds are high someone will see it and report it and that's not going to go over well.

Also, discussion of moderation is itself something to be avoided as it often derails threads.

[The Flavour Cat]

If you've read the quest where she yammers on about her motivation, it seems... weak. I won't spoil it (although I'll link the quest if anyone quotes me on this and asks me), but she just seems paranoid and assuming way too much. I'm not too excited to see how the events pan out, bit I'm definitely interested to see if her plan succeeds.

[Jastall]

S
What Feral Worgen? Forsaken were pushed out by Crowley's GLF and the 7th Legion. They then defeated both by the end of Silverpine, completely obliterating the 7th Legion forces, forcing Crowley to surrender and leave and making the Bloodfang Pack (angry at Crowley's decision) flee to Hillsbrad to conspire with Stormpikes instead.

So obliterated that the Forsaken were pushed back from Gilneas for good and the Worgen remained their enemies forevermore, with the direct effect of stopping Sylvanas's best chance at immortality, and the Alliance reclaimed Gilneas eventually. The intended domino effect simply wasn't there, and I struggle to see how it would be present when Malfurion isn't even the leader of the NE's military, Tyrande is.

[Minikin]

Yeah I don't get that. So what if the Horde is "morally grey" the most, horde-players should embrace it.

Using that blight on the Alliance when I have tried the Undercity-event on beta, so satisfying. Those who take the mask only, get out.

That is the general issue with some horde for some reason. They start defending or justifying their leaders as good and Noble ppl.

Everytime they get a controversial leader, break down 50 50 right down the middle. Some loving it the other explaining it.

Should honestly just revel in it.

[Mehrunes]

The Council seemed to *not* want to be immortal, though - they essentially wanted their right to die, as it were. The nascent core of the council, formed by Parqual and Velcinda, were set against the rumors that Sylvanas wanted the Forsaken to endure forever - this was well and before the Gathering was a thing that was proposed by Anduin and Calia. Sylvanas could certainly make her pronouncement now, if she were inclined - given that the only members of the Council left were those left embittered by rejection, but if the Gathering had not happened this would be harder sell, made even more difficult by the theoretical admission of Rogers and/or Genn of acting rashly in Stormheim.

Except Velcinda and Parqual would fall under the category of "some of the Council". Not the entirety of the Council as the start of your post indicates. Nathanos clearly stated it's not a universal belief among them. And, again, so what that they were against that plan? Sylvanas holds more sway among the Forsaken. If it came down to popular vote after Sylvanas told her story of how Alliance fucked her over and ruined her grand gift to the Forsaken, more would side with her than with Elsie or Parqual.

And since I kinda doubt Genn and Rogers would include a "we completely ruined the long-term survival of your very race, whoopsie" in their apology, the Forsaken learning that from Sylvanas after the apology would only make it look like disingenuous horseshit. Which such a reply from Genn and Rogers would obviously have been in the first place, given their attitude towards the Horde.

Garrosh and his elite Kor'kron represent what Garrosh thought was the best of the Horde - there to make the peace-seeking Tauren eat crow, as it were. They then got their asses handed to them by a bunch of Quillboar. Contrast this to the burgeoning nation of Stormwind, the shining jewel of the modern Alliance, nearly getting stomped by Gnolls in their early years. You don't see the parallels there?

How many of those Kor'kron did he have? Eight? Besides, what does Garrosh's thoughts matter here, exactly? Garrosh was a walking disaster when it comes to his leadership. His thoughts on the Horde and what best represented it aren't exactly some grand authority here.

And no, I don't see the parallel between a tiny group of Orcs taking on a much larger group of Quillboars, including previously unseen (and as such ones that did not factor into their decision to charge in in the first place) super Quillboars and a supposed global superpower getting almost obliterated by the Azerothian equivalent of Kosovo less than a century ago.

Well, no, mainly because Gnolls don't exist in the real world. Did America have the same military build-up, infrastructure, world power, and ordinance that it has now? Also no. A century is a long time for a nation to grow and expand, which is exactly what Stormwind did following the Gnoll War. It went from its tiny holdings in Elwynn to all the way to Stranglethorn Vale, which is where it begin rousing the quiescent Gurubashi tribe.

You focused on Gnolls not existing and the gist of the problem passed you by. Replace Gnolls, Trolls and Orcs with Lesotho, East Timor and North Korea if you will. The point is, US grew and expanded without a direct threat against their territory, let alone a war that almost obliterated them. Especially war against globally insignificant nations (at least in military terms). Stormwind got nearly flattened. Three times. When you have to recuperate from three cases of near-destruction, you don't have much resources or manpower grow and expand into a superpower. Just like with Garrosh and the Quillboars you're comparing apples to grasshoppers.

They failed to make it past the gates of the city before being obliterated by the Guardian's might. To "nearly" sack a city you would, definitionally, need to get inside it to some degree.

I'm pretty sure it's a direct quote from Chronicle, but whatever. Just like it talked about the city being "on the verge of collapse". The Trolls also already scaled the walls and killed the king in his "desperate charge". But that also doesn't matter. Obviously desperate charges are common occurrence when you're not getting your ass handed to you. Because nothing screams "we're totally in control of this fight" like desperation.

Through some alchemy of argumentation you've somehow managed to make Stormwind's victories over the Gnolls, then the Gurubashi, into defeats?

Point out the word "defeat" in what you quoted. Also, what Stormwind victory over the Gurrubashi? Is Medivh Stormwind now? How did he become a nation? And when? Anyway, since you're arguing against your fantasies now, I'm not going to answer to the rest.

The same with the Gurubashi - they *defeated* the Gurubashi and began claiming large swathes of land in so doing.

Except for this. I have no clue where you're getting the idea Stormwind gained large swathes of land after the Gurrubashi war. Just the opposite. Chronicle says they expanded before the war, when they got too close to the borders of the Trolls in the process (and if they got to their border only through that expansion, they weren't expanding at their expense) and that is what made the Trolls target them.

So obliterated that the Forsaken were pushed back from Gilneas for good and the Worgen remained their enemies forevermore, with the direct effect of stopping Sylvanas's best chance at immortality, and the Alliance reclaimed Gilneas eventually. The intended domino effect simply wasn't there, and I struggle to see how it would be present when Malfurion isn't even the leader of the NE's military, Tyrande is.

I'm sorry, did I stutter? I said the 7th Legion forces were obliterated, not the Worgen. Or were the 7th Legion forces there Worgen now? Even though Worgen joined the Alliance moments earlier? And Worgen may have remained Forsaken's enemies forever more, but they were them outside of their home. Because they had to abandon it. Which was my point. And Worgen only reclaim it after Sylvanas withdraws from Lordaeron after she turned it into a trap for Alliance to die in it. Glorious race, those Worgen.

[Super Dickmann]

So obliterated that the Forsaken were pushed back from Gilneas for good and the Worgen remained their enemies forevermore, with the direct effect of stopping Sylvanas's best chance at immortality, and the Alliance reclaimed Gilneas eventually. The intended domino effect simply wasn't there, and I struggle to see how it would be present when Malfurion isn't even the leader of the NE's military, Tyrande is.

As late as Before the Storm Genn himself refers to Gilneas as abandoned and ruled by the Forsaken. The Alliance only take it back after the Battle for Lordaeron and it's unclear how effective a control they have.

[Deleted]

"Not only are we killing you, it's your fault for dying." Just wow.

Well then, all anyone has to do is declare they won't take responsibility? Got it. If he gave all this time for evacuations, why were there any deaths at all? With "ample time", it should have been completely clear and at least some form of defensive action prepared.

You mean the people who thought Garrosh had betrayed them (via Twilight Hammer tricks), and whom Garrosh made exactly no attempts to prove innocence? Screw that, a chance to make up for daddy issues!

Orcs are too dense to have agriculture in the first place. It's far more important to somehow have resources to remodel Org with even more spikes and chains.

The Horde clear cuts areas and either blights or pollutes them (i.e. goblins). Who wouldn't want that in their backyard? Despite that, they had a trade agreement going until their people were murdered. Again, for the more foam at the mouth types here, the Twilight Hammer set this up. If there was any attempt whatsoever by Garrosh to diplomatically prove innocence, I'd be genuinely glad to learn of it. Until then, what was shown in game was Garrosh couldn't wait to grab his ax.

You mean the utterly cringe worthy scenario where a 10k year old commander is outclassed by the new guy we're trying to build up? All that showed was Blizz can't write worth a damn. Building one character up by trashing another more established character isn't even good enough to be called fan fiction.

Until they neutered him post Wrathgate.

Let's see "Rawr all shall serve the Lich Queen," "When Jaina tried for peace, she was well written. When I try for peace, I'm somehow a beta cuck cow...", "Hi I'm Lor... dammit, I deserve screen time too, get back here!" and "Honor! Never forsake it, unless it's convenient." Gallywix of all them is the most well written, and that's sad.

No argument there.

To sum up all your replies the horde and Alliance are at war don't forget that. The night elfs and Theramore have put so much danger to the Horde and their survival. I'm mostly still shocked people defend Theramore. It was a military outpost and port that the Alliance used regular to supply to troopers in Kalimdor. I'm glad we both agree the Alliance is written like garbage. Expect prophet Velen to sit around with a thumb in his mouth for another 4 expansions.

Blizzard COULD write him to be a mentor to Anduin with Greymane constantly contradicting his teachings. But Christie Golden decided to write Greymane as a saint and the second coming of Jesus in the new novel. Such a horrible book.

[Logwyn]

Yes, yes, HORDE BIAS is totally reals and is out to get each and every Alliance member. Because reptilians control Blizzard through chemtrails.

Also, do tell more of this fascinating tale of how Horde is nothing other than refugees that constantly lose their wars. Because they lost only the Second War. Because two thirds of the Horde either fucked off with Gul'dan or was sent after Gul'dan to punish him. So yay, Alliance won a war against 1/3rd of the Horde forces on Azeroth (with entire clans still waiting behind on Draenor).

And out of that 1/3rd they still failed to capture some clans, like Frostwolves and the Warsong. And yet, the population of internment camps alone, which is a sliver of the entire Orc population, was still enough for Blackmoore to plan taking over the Alliance. Which he did in a timeline where he merely stopped drinking. Admittedly that was after Stromgarde, Quel'Thalas, Gilneas and Kul Tiras left, but then again still included the powerhouses like Dwarves and Lordaeron.

Then Orcs fled, rejoining with Warsongs and Frostwolves that eluded capture. While Lordaeron, the strongest nation of the Alliance, fell. With half of the Scourge forces of in Lordaeron then breaking free as Forsaken. And them and remaining Thalassian forces joining the Horde too. And Tauren and some Trolls. Meanwhile since then the part of the Alliance that would have been defeated by Orcs alone. Or was defeated by Orcs alone in case of Stormwind. Just their vanguard too, because Orcs reinforced before the Second War. Yet Stormwind is now the strongest Alliance member. Which should tell you how weak Alliance is.

Meanwhile Alliance got genocide magnet in Draenei and Night Elves, which constantly had to be bailed out by their human masters. Horde is better off in allied races too.

So no shit the Horde is as powerful as the Alliance. They should be much, much stronger if a kingdom that recently almost fell to the memory of the Gurrubashi Empire is Alliance's backbone. The fact that Alliance didn't get steamrolled in the last war that they stupidly started showcases that Alliance is getting undue blessings of power.




Would you look at that, brilliant Alliance minds are still ignoring that the first reason she gave was that she couldn't trust any of the Forsaken still on the field under the circumstances that arose.




Not only has Blizz not said that, but there is nothing to prove that Alliance got info that Sylvanas is up to no good in Stormheim before Stormheim's storyline even started.




No, it's not justified. Because not only does it not work retroactively, but she neither did nor even planned to do anything against the Alliance.




Let's ignore that there's nothing that proves Azsuna happens before Stormheim or that the Alliance version of the Azsuna book is canon over the Horde version and that Alliance Stormheim storyline disproves the notion that Alliance had the book.




Except Alliance knew squat what the Horde wanted to do with Azerite. They didn't even know anything significant about Azerite itself at the point. Also, not only is the Alliance questline in Silithus likely starting first, but even if it wasn't, those Alliance SI:7 members were still "passively acting" in Horde mining camp. I.e. they were trespassing.




Mernethil's Lordaeron went up in flames. Sylvanas forged her state in its ashes and is a legitimate ruler by right of conquest. Even if Menethil's Lordaeron was still a thing, Calia bailed on it a decade ago and abandoned her people.




Now do the same questline with the Horde. Would you look at that, it's mutually exclusive with the Alliance one. And there's no source on earth that says it's the Alliance one that's canon. And Alliance Stormheim storyline still disproves the notion Alliance had any intel. They are utterly clueless even in Skold-Ashil. The last subzone of Stormheim involved in the Sylvanas vs Genn storyline. Which, imagine that, happens after the start of that questline.




You're not really one to talk, given your habit to start complaining about how it's unfair books are canon lore or that other posters' posts are too long for your liking whenever you run out of arguments.




Alliance didn't capture shit. They were there together with the Darkspear Rebellion to liberate the city from Garrosh. Also, the Horde was weakened as hell? You mean the Horde when even the majority of Orcs turned against Garrosh? You really don't mean the Alliance that had its teeth kicked in on daily basis ever since Cataclysm? How comes it's the Alliance that ceded a fuckton of land to the Horde rather than it being the other way around then, hmmm? And if they wouldn't win in the room, the "totally superior" Alliance army above would be left headless. All the while Sylvanas would go all out on telling her Val'kyr to resurrect the fallen humans.

Just a Sylvanis sheep again........ She's lost. She needs to be put down like the cancer she is.

[meowfurion]

Ignores all the bad shit the Alliance is doing. The state of the Alliance. The Alliance has professional victimhood raised to artform.

........Wait what??

What????????

The Horde's ENTIRE MODUS OPERANDI has been "we are outcasts and victims" from day. fucking. one. What kinda good ass shit weed are you smoking?

[Feanoro]

Do give examples.

Now who has the memory problems? Your whole rant about Stormheim DEPENDS on Horde and Alliance being shown two different scenarios. Hell, you pointed out specific quests with links.

And to think you have the unmitigated gall to accuse anyone of dishonesty.

[Super Dickmann]

Now who has the memory problems? Your whole rant about Stormheim DEPENDS on Horde and Alliance being shown two different scenarios. Hell, you pointed out specific quests with links.

And to think you have the unmitigated gall to accuse anyone of dishonesty.

The scenarios are the same one, just from different perspective. There's no factological difference. In the Horde one, Genn attacks the Horde fleet from his airship, destroys most of it, then crashes it into a mountain and Sylvanas goes awol. In the Alliance version, Genn attacks the Horde fleet from his airship, destroys most of it, then crashes it into a mountain and Sylvanas goes awol. The only thing being debated and I use this term as loosely as possible, is his motivation.

[Feanoro]

In the Alliance version, you appear on the ship, and bat riders attack. It's presented as defense followed by counterattack which is very different than the screeching about unprovoked attacks.

[Kwento]

........Wait what??

What????????

The Horde's ENTIRE MODUS OPERANDI has been "we are outcasts and victims" from day. fucking. one. What kinda good ass shit weed are you smoking?

He means the playerbase. Since Cata and after Blizzard actually had to explain themselves to tsunami of Alliance QQ threads, it has become a normal everyday thing to see Alliance fan’s victim-like mentality.

[Super Dickmann]

In the Alliance version, you appear on the ship, and bat riders attack. It's presented as defense followed by counterattack which is very different than the screeching about unprovoked attacks.

Are you even trying?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Greymane%27s_Gambit

As the scenario begins, a cinematic of the Skyfire unloading a volley on the Forsaken fleet from above the clouds plays.

[Tabrotar]

Except Velcinda and Parqual would fall under the category of "some of the Council". Not the entirety of the Council as the start of your post indicates. Nathanos clearly stated it's not a universal belief among them. And, again, so what that they were against that plan? Sylvanas holds more sway among the Forsaken. If it came down to popular vote after Sylvanas told her story of how Alliance fucked her over and ruined her grand gift to the Forsaken, more would side with her than with Elsie or Parqual.

And since I kinda doubt Genn and Rogers would include a "we completely ruined the long-term survival of your very race, whoopsie" in their apology, the Forsaken learning that from Sylvanas after the apology would only make it look like disingenuous horseshit. Which such a reply from Genn and Rogers would obviously have been in the first place, given their attitude towards the Horde.




How many of those Kor'kron did he have? Eight? Besides, what does Garrosh's thoughts matter here, exactly? Garrosh was a walking disaster when it comes to his leadership. His thoughts on the Horde and what best represented it aren't exactly some grand authority here.

And no, I don't see the parallel between a tiny group of Orcs taking on a much larger group of Quillboars, including previously unseen (and as such ones that did not factor into their decision to charge in in the first place) super Quillboars and a supposed global superpower getting almost obliterated by the Azerothian equivalent of Kosovo less than a century ago.




You focused on Gnolls not existing and the gist of the problem passed you by. Replace Gnolls, Trolls and Orcs with Lesotho, East Timor and North Korea if you will. The point is, US grew and expanded without a direct threat against their territory, let alone a war that almost obliterated them. Especially war against globally insignificant nations (at least in military terms). Stormwind got nearly flattened. Three times. When you have to recuperate from three cases of near-destruction, you don't have much resources or manpower grow and expand into a superpower. Just like with Garrosh and the Quillboars you're comparing apples to grasshoppers.




I'm pretty sure it's a direct quote from Chronicle, but whatever. Just like it talked about the city being "on the verge of collapse". The Trolls also already scaled the walls and killed the king in his "desperate charge". But that also doesn't matter. Obviously desperate charges are common occurrence when you're not getting your ass handed to you. Because nothing screams "we're totally in control of this fight" like desperation.




Point out the word "defeat" in what you quoted. Also, what Stormwind victory over the Gurrubashi? Is Medivh Stormwind now? How did he become a nation? And when? Anyway, since you're arguing against your fantasies now, I'm not going to answer to the rest.




Except for this. I have no clue where you're getting the idea Stormwind gained large swathes of land after the Gurrubashi war. Just the opposite. Chronicle says they expanded before the war, when they got too close to the borders of the Trolls in the process (and if they got to their border only through that expansion, they weren't expanding at their expense) and that is what made the Trolls target them.




I'm sorry, did I stutter? I said the 7th Legion forces were obliterated, not the Worgen. Or were the 7th Legion forces there Worgen now? Even though Worgen joined the Alliance moments earlier? And Worgen may have remained Forsaken's enemies forever more, but they were them outside of their home. Because they had to abandon it. Which was my point. And Worgen only reclaim it after Sylvanas withdraws from Lordaeron after she turned it into a trap for Alliance to die in it. Glorious race, those Worgen.

You really don´t get it that he means that the SW from that time in that war was the same as Garrosh with his Kor´kron aka both almost obliterated by something everyone finds not much of a threat?

[meowfurion]

He means the playerbase. Since Cata and after Blizzard actually had to explain themselves to tsunami of Alliance QQ threads, it has become a normal everyday thing to see Alliance fan’s victim-like mentality.

Oh, right. I'm sure there's literally ZERO base behind it, right? They're all just collectively telling the same lie, right?