Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Mehrunes]

Too bad that it is a fact. From the very beginning of WoW, horde was always blessed with power by blizzard, eventhough they were nothing other than refugees who constantly lose their wars and their capital got sacked, they are still as powerful as Alliance. So yes it is Blizzard's blessing ... to a degree that suddenly after so many wars and so many loses "lets invade the homeland of the ones that Garrosh devised a lot of plan to conquer their land and failed and take their entire nation as hostage and kill the most powerful druid who saved the world several times and break the spirit of those people who are extremely religious and live happily after. Are you with me Mr. Honorable?" "Yeah, honor not triggered. Lets go"

Yes, yes, HORDE BIAS is totally reals and is out to get each and every Alliance member. Because reptilians control Blizzard through chemtrails.

Also, do tell more of this fascinating tale of how Horde is nothing other than refugees that constantly lose their wars. Because they lost only the Second War. Because two thirds of the Horde either fucked off with Gul'dan or was sent after Gul'dan to punish him. So yay, Alliance won a war against 1/3rd of the Horde forces on Azeroth (with entire clans still waiting behind on Draenor).

And out of that 1/3rd they still failed to capture some clans, like Frostwolves and the Warsong. And yet, the population of internment camps alone, which is a sliver of the entire Orc population, was still enough for Blackmoore to plan taking over the Alliance. Which he did in a timeline where he merely stopped drinking. Admittedly that was after Stromgarde, Quel'Thalas, Gilneas and Kul Tiras left, but then again still included the powerhouses like Dwarves and Lordaeron.

Then Orcs fled, rejoining with Warsongs and Frostwolves that eluded capture. While Lordaeron, the strongest nation of the Alliance, fell. With half of the Scourge forces of in Lordaeron then breaking free as Forsaken. And them and remaining Thalassian forces joining the Horde too. And Tauren and some Trolls. Meanwhile since then the part of the Alliance that would have been defeated by Orcs alone. Or was defeated by Orcs alone in case of Stormwind. Just their vanguard too, because Orcs reinforced before the Second War. Yet Stormwind is now the strongest Alliance member. Which should tell you how weak Alliance is.

Meanwhile Alliance got genocide magnet in Draenei and Night Elves, which constantly had to be bailed out by their human masters. Horde is better off in allied races too.

So no shit the Horde is as powerful as the Alliance. They should be much, much stronger if a kingdom that recently almost fell to the memory of the Gurrubashi Empire is Alliance's backbone. The fact that Alliance didn't get steamrolled in the last war that they stupidly started showcases that Alliance is getting undue blessings of power.

No she agreed because she hoped it would fail, after she witnessed that there´re Forsaken who want to see their familys she just used Calia as a oppurtunity to just cull them all because (just back at you did you even read the book "mate"): I can´t allow them to feel hope and happyness or they would not longer follow me.

Would you look at that, brilliant Alliance minds are still ignoring that the first reason she gave was that she couldn't trust any of the Forsaken still on the field under the circumstances that arose.

You mean after Blizz stated that the Aszuna happend before Stormheim and we clearly got info that she was up to no good his attack wasn´t justified?

Not only has Blizz not said that, but there is nothing to prove that Alliance got info that Sylvanas is up to no good in Stormheim before Stormheim's storyline even started.

With all the fucking things the Horde has done before (and especially what she has done) his attack wasn´t justified (which it was after all)?

No, it's not justified. Because not only does it not work retroactively, but she neither did nor even planned to do anything against the Alliance.

So lets ignore the Intel the worgen get out of Azuna I guess, but even then Genn may have saved us all from Sylvanas's greed, where in Odin decides to not give us the Aegis because we mortals stole one of his prized subjects from him and sided with Helya to do it no less...

Let's ignore that there's nothing that proves Azsuna happens before Stormheim or that the Alliance version of the Azsuna book is canon over the Horde version and that Alliance Stormheim storyline disproves the notion that Alliance had the book.

And the Horde murders Alliance SI:7 members who where acting passively to the goblins, and don't give me that innocent bunk ether. Sylvanas herself has made mention that she want's to make war on the alliance, and whats the first thing she dose with this stuff? oh ya build weapons with it, and lay siege to a world tree.

Except Alliance knew squat what the Horde wanted to do with Azerite. They didn't even know anything significant about Azerite itself at the point. Also, not only is the Alliance questline in Silithus likely starting first, but even if it wasn't, those Alliance SI:7 members were still "passively acting" in Horde mining camp. I.e. they were trespassing.

The True Leader and Heir of the Kingdom of Lordaeron has been revealed. Sylvanas is a pretender. The true Queen of Lordaeron and leader of the forsaken is here. Sylvanas and her psycho banshee ways are at an end.

LONG LIVE CALIA MENETHILL!! LONG LIVE THE QUEEN!!!

Mernethil's Lordaeron went up in flames. Sylvanas forged her state in its ashes and is a legitimate ruler by right of conquest. Even if Menethil's Lordaeron was still a thing, Calia bailed on it a decade ago and abandoned her people.

Play the Alliance questline starting with Aszuna follow the story get send back to Dalaran turn your quest in and read the quest text. come back after that and see if you still talk like you now nothing about quest progression.

Now do the same questline with the Horde. Would you look at that, it's mutually exclusive with the Alliance one. And there's no source on earth that says it's the Alliance one that's canon. And Alliance Stormheim storyline still disproves the notion Alliance had any intel. They are utterly clueless even in Skold-Ashil. The last subzone of Stormheim involved in the Sylvanas vs Genn storyline. Which, imagine that, happens after the start of that questline.

You noticed the pattern too? At least there's honesty in the choice of username.

You're not really one to talk, given your habit to start complaining about how it's unfair books are canon lore or that other posters' posts are too long for your liking whenever you run out of arguments.

Absolutely, maybe not in the same room, but afterwards in the grand scheme of things the Alliance had the upper hand there. Horde was weakened as hell, the Alliance captured their capitol, the war was basically won at that point. It's a fact that the Alliance was mercifull enough to leave the Horde be.

Alliance didn't capture shit. They were there together with the Darkspear Rebellion to liberate the city from Garrosh. Also, the Horde was weakened as hell? You mean the Horde when even the majority of Orcs turned against Garrosh? You really don't mean the Alliance that had its teeth kicked in on daily basis ever since Cataclysm? How comes it's the Alliance that ceded a fuckton of land to the Horde rather than it being the other way around then, hmmm? And if they wouldn't win in the room, the "totally superior" Alliance army above would be left headless. All the while Sylvanas would go all out on telling her Val'kyr to resurrect the fallen humans.

[Minikin]

If you can sell to both sides of the war? Sure. Gallywix can't in this case, being one of Horde's leaders. Peace would open half the world's markets to him.




Just because Silithus is neutral doesn't mean Horde mining camp is neutral. Just like Vanilla Alliance camp in Silithus was not neutral. Horde camp is Horde territory. It really boggles my mind how Alliance-leaning posters on this forum struggle with this preschool level concept.




That they have a right to retaliate you does not change they instigated the conflict in the first place.




Horde camp isn't neutral region. And Silithus being a neutral region is nothing more than a game term. It's not neutral in a political term. It's not a neutral zone, it's not a neutral territory and it most certainly is not a neutral state. It's an area that belongs to neither the Horde nor the Alliance. In general. Because like with most neutral zones in WoW, Alliance and the Horde still set up camps in there. Which they can defend. Any time some Horde player walks into Alliance camp in Desolace and is attacked by the guards, is the Alliance starting a war? No. Because the camp belongs to them and the Horde player has no right to enter it as they please.

An analogy that may help brilliant Alliance minds grasp this completely uncomplicated matter. If I park my car in a public parking, is a lunatic Alliance player entitled to get into just because the parking as a whole is public? No, because that'd be as lunatic as the hypothetical Alliance player.




You mean after he betrayed the Forsaken by making an unauthorized truce with the enemy, which ran contrary to his orders and which cost Forsaken lives when Alliance decided to suddenly break that truce? Which, by the way, he was capable of choosing to do in the first place precisely because he had free will?

Yeah, no. Free will does not equal lawlessness. I'm still not sure why Alliance posters have trouble fathoming this either.




Yeah, no. Rogers' family died in the Second War attack on Southshore. She says her parents are buried there. After Forsaken attacked it there was no human left to bury anyone and Forsaken sure as hell would not bother with it either.

Ah it was the original horde not the true horde #23664. My mistake.

[Mehrunes]

Yeah yeah, brilliant as always. Those fanfictions are still strong.

Right. An argument that points out in detail the logical and semantic flaw in your narrative is totally fanfiction. Never mind it wasn't even about lore per se, but about Blizzard's comments. So do tell me more about how this was fanfiction.

Alternatively, at least admit you have nothing to offer because you are such a monumental paragon of argumentative courage and integrity that you find engaging in a discussion after you've been backed into corner to be below you rather than trying to use such a monumentally brilliant smokescreen.

[Alex86el]

Not really, I think after the book, I would understand that decision.

Also, M O R A L L Y G R A Y

having read the book, there is nothing that would justify attacking teldrassil really.
its just sylvanas assuming that others think like her.
theres no real alliance threat.

also, theres the whole civilians thing... you just dont do it.
even camp taurajo civilians were allowed to leave and theres even alliance stopping thieves from stealing the tauren's stuff.
even garrosh respected civilians in the begining.

[Mehrunes]

Pollution is much different than killing the planet itself. Life can recover in time once we extinguish, killing the titan pretty much just dooms the entire planet with no chance of recovery and mining azerite is a much more direct form of killing the planet than polluting since its entirely avoidable (We have not seen any QOL improvements for citizens as a result of mining azerite.

How do you know? It's not like there is a scientific body on Azeroth engaged in hard sciences about the effects of mining Azerite. All we have is a vision Magni saw and that's not exactly solid proof. Especially since, as has already been said, SI:7 was doing its stuff in Silithus before Anduin had his talk with Magni that informed him more about things. Before that (i.e. when he told Shaw to observe the Horde) he knew little about it.

[Feanoro]

Yes, yes, HORDE BIAS is totally reals and is out to get each and every Alliance member. Because reptilians control Blizzard through chemtrails.

And you wonder why you don't persuade anyone.

You're not really one to talk, given your habit to start complaining about how it's unfair books are canon lore

You keep trying to construct this narrative. I said one time that I didn't like that Blizz doesn't present the story in game leading to confusion. Every time I've commented since has been a reply to your butthurt obsession with that comment.

or that other posters' posts are too long for your liking

Do what? I have no idea what you're on about here.

whenever you run out of arguments.

Would that be when I realize that you are in no way interested in discussion, only in religious conversions?

[Mehrunes]

I agree about the initial attack in Stormheim, but as for Sylvanas maintaining the "security" of her entire race by capturing and enslaving another being that had never harmed her as well as any subsequent beings it might otherwise produce - well, that would fall firmly under the heading of "not good things to allow." Sylvanas had no right to Eyir or her Val'kyr, even if it was to her or the Forsaken's benefit - not that Genn cared overly about that, but the end-result of Genn's interference produced a good thing (freeing Eyir from possible eternal bondage).

That Alliance may find itself unwilling to punish Genn and Rogers because they found Sylvanas' plan to fall under "not good things to allow" category is neither here nor there in regards to my point that from the Horde perspective these two merely apologizing wouldn't be enough after they fucked the Forsaken over.

The Alliance cast itself in the role of peacekeeper, trying to wipe the foaming spittle from Garrosh's jaws as opposed to confronting him head-on. That being said, the Alliance despite its hesitance to commit itself had something the Horde distinctly lacked: cohesion among its own leadership and the full commitment of its client-races. That alone, if nothing else, cements it the comparative operator of ">=" in my mind. This of course got much worse as Garrosh further divided his own people and set them against him, culminating in his ouster at SoO. A Horde recovering from an internal schism would definitely fall behind the fully unified Alliance in terms of political power, although by the time of Legion this difference had largely been cemented over and the two factions were on roughly equal footing. Over the course of Legion and the dual losses on both sides I would say parity has now been reached just in time for BfA's events.

Alliance's cohesion does not change the fact its strongest member was almost demolished by Gnolls. You can be the most cohesive force in the universe, but when even your strongest member has trouble against Gnolls, or was steamrolled by a sliver of what the Horde is now 1v1, you're not a superpower. Ants are more cohesive than even the Alliance. They still can get significantly fucked by a single anteater.

[Minikin]

It's more of a sinkhole where a horse may have been a few years ago.

Sinkhole has become this deep ass crater now.

[Mehrunes]

Nice headcanon there. You have no idea what she would have done or not. Maybe stop talking trash to people when they actually follow lore, since you are coming with speculations, with no logic whatsoever.

Right. No logic whatsoever. Never mind that Sylvanas wants to attack Stormwind to create more Forsaken. Which she in turn needs to maintain their strength. A need that flies out of the window if she could make the Forsaken she already has immortal. Because *gasp* that'd maintain their strength much better than turning a group of people that may not even want to join her into undead.

Ah, right. I forgot. Of course someone who has had severe problems with the concept of logic for years obviously wouldn't spot logic in what they are reading. But little advice. At least try to engage some introspection instead of flailing about how posts are trash because you can't spot logic in it even though it's basically hitting you in the face with a baseball bat.

And I really hope you weren't talking about yourself where you mentioned the people that actually follow lore.

I like how people go "b-but Genn broke the peace with Stormheim!" but always very conveniently leave out Ashran, when the Horde's paranoid kicked in again and they decided to attack the Alliance out of sheer delusion. Again.

Because there are no confirmed casualties. Now try to explain the Alliance posters ignoring that the Alliance started the previous faction war.

[Minikin]

Right. No logic whatsoever. Never mind that Sylvanas wants to attack Stormwind to create more Forsaken. Which she in turn needs to maintain their strength. A need that flies out of the window if she could make the Forsaken she already has immortal. Because *gasp* that'd maintain their strength much better than turning a group of people that may not even want to join her into undead.

Ah, right. I forgot. Of course someone who has had severe problems with the concept of logic for years obviously wouldn't spot logic in what they are reading. But little advice. At least try to engage some introspection instead of flailing about how posts are trash because you can't spot logic in it even though it's basically hitting you in the face with a baseball bat.

And I really hope you weren't talking about yourself where you mentioned the people that actually follow lore.




Because there are no confirmed casualties. Now try to explain the Alliance posters ignoring that the Alliance started the previous faction war.

As per quest text, letting sylvannas get more valkyr means her armies become unstoppable or something.

It's the blizzard two pronged story line.

Also can you guys get less angry at each other. Sheesh.

[Mehrunes]

A Horde camp, really? With no Horde flags or symbols? In a giant radius around the massive sword that is a threat to the very planet and therefore an area that ALL PEOPLE (well, barring Twilight Cultists) should have access too? I don't buy it, sorry.

Is the sword a nation or faction that could claim this land for... Sargeras, I guess? No. The Horde camp on the other hand was full with Horde personnel. I mean, the Alliance quest giver that sends you there outright mentions that SI:7 infiltrated the camp right after saying they were tasked with infiltrating the Horde operation.

[Aucald]

That Alliance may find itself unwilling to punish Genn and Rogers because they found Sylvanas' plan to fall under "not good things to allow" category is neither here nor there in regards to my point that from the Horde perspective these two merely apologizing wouldn't be enough after they fucked the Forsaken over.

Except the Forsaken don't know they were "fucked over" as you put it - only rumors persist about Sylvanas' activities in Stormheim, of which only Nathanos, Sylvanas, and the Champion appear to know the truth (as per "Before the Storm"). So a public apology/proverbial flogging may indeed have worked.

Alliance's cohesion does not change the fact its strongest member was almost demolished by Gnolls. You can be the most cohesive force in the universe, but when even your strongest member has trouble against Gnolls, or was steamrolled by a sliver of what the Horde is now 1v1, you're not a superpower. Ants are more cohesive than even the Alliance. They still can get significantly fucked by a single anteater.

Garrosh and the Kor'kron < Quillboars. The Gnoll War also occurred in PY -75, when the kingdom of Stormwind was just getting up on its feet - trying to pass this as the Stormwind of today's relative "power level" is some pretty intense casuistry.

[Doffen]

Right. No logic whatsoever. Never mind that Sylvanas wants to attack Stormwind to create more Forsaken. Which she in turn needs to maintain their strength. A need that flies out of the window if she could make the Forsaken she already has immortal. Because *gasp* that'd maintain their strength much better than turning a group of people that may not even want to join her into undead.

Ah, right. I forgot. Of course someone who has had severe problems with the concept of logic for years obviously wouldn't spot logic in what they are reading. But little advice. At least try to engage some introspection instead of flailing about how posts are trash because you can't spot logic in it even though it's basically hitting you in the face with a baseball bat.

And I really hope you weren't talking about yourself where you mentioned the people that actually follow lore.




Because there are no confirmed casualties. Now try to explain the Alliance posters ignoring that the Alliance started the previous faction war.

I love how you casually just ignored the last post I wrote, because you got nothing to come up, instead coming with the usual insults. Embarrassing. What you came up with was speculations, headcanon.

And don't say that anyone ignores lore, when you are the one who do this the most. Context, logic, words? Yeah, look it up.

[Mehrunes]

You do understand he's not an absolute dictator warchief?

You do understand that he's still the supreme military commander of the Alliance, that Genn and Rogers were acting under his orders in Stormheim and as far as Anduin is concerned, he believes they broke those orders? He has all the right to punish them. But go on, humor me with your brilliant remarks about "sperging" about a topic you're obviously clueless about some more.

To his knowledge, he was the highest ranking survivor.

Of the Alliance. Alliance isn't Lordaeron. Alliance has no right to Lordaeron. Because that's not how alliances work. If the government of UK collapsed because May is completely incompetent in regards to Brexit negotiations, the leadership of NATO won't have any right to UK either.

[Vordie]

Honestly, we'll never be able to tell 100% till the Scenario releases.

I HIGHLY doubt it will be "MORALLY GRAY" though.

[Mehrunes]

Except the Forsaken don't know they were "fucked over" as you put it - only rumors persist about Sylvanas' activities in Stormheim, of which only Nathanos, Sylvanas, and the Champion appear to know the truth (as per "Before the Storm"). So a public apology/proverbial flogging may indeed have worked.

I'm sorry. Perhaps I did not make sufficient inquiries into your scenario first. So I'll do it now. In your scenario, would Genn and Rogers be apologizing to random Forsaken, or, I dunno, the Warchief of the Horde? I.e. the person that does know the full extent of Genn's and Roger's actions and what they mean for her and her race?

And even if they did make that apology to random Forsaken, would that somehow make said Forsaken the ones who'd make political choices for the Horde in reply to that apology? Or would that be Sylvanas anyway, still rendering the ignorance of your average Forsaken moot?

Garrosh and the Kor'kron < Quillboars. The Gnoll War also occurred in PY -75, when the kingdom of Stormwind was just getting up on its feet - trying to pass this as the Stormwind of today's relative "power level" is some pretty intense casuistry.

How is Garrosh and merely a handful of Kor'kron being defeated by an army of Gnolls on their turf supposed to be a counterargument here? Did an army of Quillboars steamroll its way all the way to the gates of Orgrimmar, with the Horde hanging by a thread after the final battle? No?

And 75 years is nothing for a nation. Even the extra ~two decades since the opening of the Dark Portal. Especially without modernized industry to get it back on its feet quickly.

Especially since in the first post I explicitly mentioned it was just one case of them almost getting crushed in less than a century. Them almost getting stomped by the remnant of the Gurrubashi, surviving only because of Medivh, happened shortly before the First War. Then they got obliterated by the vanguard of the Old Horde a generation ago.

Three catastrophic wars in less than a century are not a hallmark of a strong nation, nor do they turn that nation into a superpower when the effects of the last two wars would have still been felt. Westfall, the backyard and granary of Stormwind, was still feeling the ripples of Stormwind's destruction in the First War at least till Cataclysm.

Pretty sure they weren't all high ranking officials. Feel free to quote the book if I'm wrong. Also I'm sure the families of the people who died trying to flee the German Democratic Republic will be glad to hear that it was okay for them to get shot because they were traitors after all. Glad we can close that chapter.

All Forsaken that took part in the Gathering were members of the Desolate Council, as per Sylvanas' decision.

Nah, they got all the right to defend themself, just like we have irl. It's more the neutrality of the zone and that Sargeras put his freakin sword in the middle of it. It "should" have been a joined thing among the Alliance and the Horde to fix it, but they don't because of new expansion :> And Sylvanas is the one who got intentions of actually using it against the Alliance. Anduin and the rest just retaliate, like always.

Except the zone is neutral only in game terms, not in any political term. And why "should" it be a joined thing? The Horde was under no obligation to engage in that. Them entertaining their sovereignty by making that choice doesn't give the Alliance any justification for an attack. Even if Sargeras skewered Silithus with a hundred swords.

And whoo, it's time for the Alliance lie of how poor innocent Alliance "always just retaliates". It's totally been missing from this thread. Or at least that page. Never mind that the Alliance started the previous faction war.

[Leodric]

Honestly, we'll never be able to tell 100% till the Scenario releases.

I HIGHLY doubt it will be "MORALLY GRAY" though.

I expect them to pull something like "the old gods did" or stuff like that. Anything else would be quite boring to be honest, couldn't think of a reason why anyone else would have done it.

- - - Updated - - -

having read the book, there is nothing that would justify attacking teldrassil really.
its just sylvanas assuming that others think like her.
theres no real alliance threat.

also, theres the whole civilians thing... you just dont do it.
even camp taurajo civilians were allowed to leave and theres even alliance stopping thieves from stealing the tauren's stuff.
even garrosh respected civilians in the begining.

Would be also funny if it was an accident of some sort. The mental gymnastics concerning that would be hilarious to read then.

- - - Updated - - -

I love how you casually just ignored the last post I wrote, because you got nothing to come up, instead coming with the usual insults. Embarrassing. What you came up with was speculations, headcanon.

And don't say that anyone ignores lore, when you are the one who do this the most. Context, logic, words? Yeah, look it up.

It's funny to see that posters who are rambling wall of texts seem to try convince themselves first with that attempt. It's a good way to hide insults though, since you simply can't expect a mod to read all that stuff. My fedora tipping shrek image got me an infraction though, should have hid it better, kek.

[Mehrunes]

You are right, the story and leveling is different, that's why they just changed so you could level in whatever zone you wanted, but the story stayed. So yes, they didn't say anything about the story because that was set in stone, they only changed the leveling path. Thanks for that one.

Love it when people hand me such things.

@Super Dickmann handed you squat, because your video says nothing about the story. As such, try to get this one, it also did not say anything about the story being set, what it was before they changed the leveling flow. Or anything else about the story. That's kinda what not mentioning the story at all indicates.

So you making conclusions about the story from a video of Blizzard not mentioning the story is all kinds of baseless. At least educate yourself on the basics of the basics of argumentation if you want to engage in a discussion. Because so far you are the one handing people things.\

Here's a task for you: quote or link the time stamp of the video you keep using as proof that says:
1. what the story order was;
2. that the story stayed the same when they changed the leveling order.

Newsflash hint in regards of #2: absence of evidence (of the story order changing) is not evidence of absence (likewise). Which means you've got squat for #2. And to save you time, also for #1, because they don't even use the word story.

She herself said all living are a threat to the forsaken.

Which is kinda the opposite of what you said.

If she controls the Valkyr do you really think she would allow anyone that isn't 100% on her side rezed? She fears death more than anything.
If everyone and everything is undead it means no more kids meaning your army is finite.

How does that address what I said? You argued that Sylvanas would only resurrect specific heroes rather than all of them, making things easier for the Void Lords. But who exactly is resurrecting every hero as it is? How would Sylvanas resurrecting at least some of them be a decrease compared to pretty much nothing sans Odyn resurrecting Vrykul (which he'd be able to continue to do even without Eyir)?

im just gonna go with you attempting to get a bite or troll lol.. but none of your "the alliance peoples are so bad" points you've made take into account that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.. were all REACTIONARY to horde ACTIONS.

Alliance started the previous faction war so ultimately Jaina's words were a reaction to Alliance's actions. Greymane attacked the Forsaken because of his hate-boner from years ago, not anything they recently did. And Goblins mining stuff while an action from the Horde is no grounds for Alliance to start killing them.

[Aucald]

I'm sorry. Perhaps I did not make sufficient inquiries into your scenario first. So I'll do it now. In your scenario, would Genn and Rogers be apologizing to random Forsaken, or, I dunno, the Warchief of the Horde? I.e. the person that does know the full extent of Genn's and Roger's actions and what they mean for her and her race?

And even if they did make that apology to random Forsaken, would that somehow make said Forsaken the ones who'd make political choices for the Horde in reply to that apology? Or would that be Sylvanas anyway, still rendering the ignorance of your average Forsaken moot?

It's not really a fleshed-out scenario, given that it was originally just a hypothetical. But in this case, I would assume that it would simply have been a formal trial of Rogers (and Genn by proxy) by the Alliance, to which the Horde would've been privy. Seeing the two excoriated for their actions in Stormheim would mollify the Forsaken people, and since Sylvanas can't "set the record straight" as concerns her activity in Stormheim it would be an Alliance political coup in any case.

How is Garrosh and merely a handful of Kor'kron being defeated by an army of Gnolls on their turf supposed to be a counterargument here? Did an army of Quillboars steamroll its way all the way to the gates of Orgrimmar, with the Horde hanging by a thread after the final battle? No?

Garrosh nearly died because of his bravado in "As Our Fathers Before Us," almost putting an end to his insane dream of a resurgent Horde because of his foolishness. I think the parallels are pretty apt.

And 75 years is nothing for a nation. Even the extra ~two decades since the opening of the Dark Portal. Especially without modernized industry to get it back on its feet quickly.

P7 -75 is 75 years before the opening of the Dark Portal - we are currently in PY 32 as of the end of Legion, so that's nearly a century ago. You're saying for instance the America of 1913 is practically the same as the America of today, then? Stormwind only began expanding in earnest following its victory in the Gnoll War (when it proved it could persist without outside aid).

Especially since in the first post I explicitly mentioned it was just one case of them almost getting crushed in less than a century. Them almost getting stomped by the remnant of the Gurrubashi, surviving only because of Medivh, happened shortly before the First War. Then they got obliterated by the vanguard of the Old Horde a generation ago.

"Getting stomped" is a bit of an overreach - the losses of Stormwind during the Gurubashi War are counted only as "moderate." Medivh ended the war decisively for Stormwind via shock and awe tactics, decimating the main Gurubashi strike-force as it was assaulting Stormwind, but the kingdom wasn't in danger of being sacked prior to this. Had the war crept on Stormwind probably still would've won through attrition but the losses would've been greater; Medivh's decisive action helped in this regard.

Three catastrophic wars in less than a century are not a hallmark of a strong nation, nor do they turn that nation into a superpower when the effects of the last two wars would have still been felt. Westfall, the backyard and granary of Stormwind, was still feeling the ripples of Stormwind's destruction in the First War at least till Cataclysm.

This is Warcraft after all - there's no kingdom or nation on Azeroth that doesn't have a history replete with conflict of all kinds. And each time one of these nation-states is seemingly destroyed it has a tendency to rise up in a new form, stronger and greater than ever (this is true of both the Alliance and the Horde).

[Deleted]

In my honest opinion none of these big scale horde attacks have anyone to blame except the Alliance for the amount of deaths.

Garrosh WARNED and gave plenty of ample time for all citizens to leave Theramore. He flat out said he would not be responsible for deaths of citizens after he attacks. The alliance had used Theramore to send constant troops to kalimdor leading to all the bases built in the barrens and reinforcements to the NightElfs. Garrosh had full right to attack and destroy Theramore. Alliance apologist still cry about this.

The attack on Teldrassil is not as justified but the Night Elves are not realistic in their terms of peace. The horde constantly needed resources within Night Elf territory because the Horde land is harsh and not good for farming or for lumber. The night elves don't want the horde cutting down trees or using the land in such a way. Garrosh during Cata said SCREW THEM, the horde needs resources. The night elves gave no land and turned down every diplomatic solution for the horde to have some land.

In my honest full opinion the night elfs had it coming. Their xenophobia and judgement of other races led them to this point. They continued to look down on all races including the Alliance Dwarfs and gnomes in a disrespectful matter. They even look down on humans seeing them as babies that needs to be matured. It was not till Varian in Mist of Pandaria put the elfs in place and showed them the way they do warfare is dated.

I honestly miss Varian he was really the last smart leader the Alliance had. Every other leader is written like a moron with Greymane being the most dumb maybe. Meanwhile the horde have a nice selection of well written leaders that need to be AXED off every few expansion because the Alliance leaders are written like garbage.