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  1. #361
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    Blizzard is hell bent on making sure that Alliance aggression in Stormheim and Silithus don't count because Sylvanas was a naughty girl in Stormheim and deserved Genn spanking her and no one gives a shit about goblins.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Which is kinda the opposite of what you said.


    How does that address what I said? You argued that Sylvanas would only resurrect specific heroes rather than all of them, making things easier for the Void Lords. But who exactly is resurrecting every hero as it is? How would Sylvanas resurrecting at least some of them be a decrease compared to pretty much nothing sans Odyn resurrecting Vrykul (which he'd be able to continue to do even without Eyir)?
    No its not the opposite of what I said, she believes all life is a threat to her which means that in order for her to get what she wants all life needs to die.

    Lorewise our adventurers keep getting rezed by the spirit healers which are Valkyr. Also since all undead aren't mind controlled eventually factions of undead would rise up against Sylvanas meaning even less beings to defend Azeroth when the inevitable wars break out.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    No, I believe the canonical story is Azsuna first. Which they actually said in the video, which they then implemented scaling. That's what I take from it. Sorry if that came out unclear. Meant more the actual quest with Genn and the intel. Since it got two different endings, we don't know for sure what's correct. That the intent was for us to go to Azsuna first in Legion is for me pretty clear(but hey I might be a lunatic)

    But yeah, I get you, I see what you mean. Sure the video doesn't show that much, but it's something about it, where we got little info from other sources. It's not enough perhaps, but my initial response was that if the other user got the info somewhere, the video was probably it.

    If I were an ass about it earlier, I am sorry. I read what you wrote as two different thing, which I took as contradictory, but I see what you mean now.
    If I had to give my guess, I'd say that the quest is a relic of an earlier version back when the zones were sequential, but it's one of the things that simply don't fit because the chronology is not fixed now. Not just because you can do them in any order now, so you can do Stormheim before Azsuna, but because no matter which version you go with, things don't quite work out.

    The crashing ship was part of the fleet, but it was attacked at sea, which is never mentioned by the Horde. You just set sail from Orgrimmar. Whereas for the Alliance version, if it's meant to be a lead up, it's a terrible one, since it's never brought up throughout the entirety of the Stormheim questing. This makes me think there were story changes involved, which is why I disagree with you that the version we see is what the original view was. Even minor dialogue changes would have made a big difference.

    And no worries, these are internet forums, a bit of dickery is par for the course.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Sylvanas was a naughty girl in Stormheim and deserved Genn spanking her
    The Sylvie fans will be right back, they need to go... er, consult some sources! Yeah, that's it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    If I had to give my guess, I'd say that the quest is a relic of an earlier version back when the zones were sequential, but it's one of the things that simply don't fit because the chronology is not fixed now. Not just because you can do them in any order now, so you can do Stormheim before Azsuna, but because no matter which version you go with, things don't quite work out.

    The crashing ship was part of the fleet, but it was attacked at sea, which is never mentioned by the Horde. You just set sail from Orgrimmar. Whereas for the Alliance version, if it's meant to be a lead up, it's a terrible one, since it's never brought up throughout the entirety of the Stormheim questing. This makes me think there were story changes involved, which is why I disagree with you that the version we see is what the original view was. Even minor dialogue changes would have made a big difference.

    And no worries, these are internet forums, a bit of dickery is par for the course.
    Yeah, it's a nice explanation that if it is the case. And that is why I even agree with Mehrunes on the parts that happens in Stormheim. It seems a bit weird that they got no clue whatsoever, but when you start the Alliance scenario they have a pretty clear indication on Sylvanas is up to no good. It changes like that. So yeah, make sense that. Maybe I am wrong
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  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    If I had to give my guess, I'd say that the quest is a relic of an earlier version back when the zones were sequential, but it's one of the things that simply don't fit because the chronology is not fixed now. Not just because you can do them in any order now, so you can do Stormheim before Azsuna, but because no matter which version you go with, things don't quite work out.

    The crashing ship was part of the fleet, but it was attacked at sea, which is never mentioned by the Horde. You just set sail from Orgrimmar. Whereas for the Alliance version, if it's meant to be a lead up, it's a terrible one, since it's never brought up throughout the entirety of the Stormheim questing. This makes me think there were story changes involved, which is why I disagree with you that the version we see is what the original view was. Even minor dialogue changes would have made a big difference.

    And no worries, these are internet forums, a bit of dickery is par for the course.
    Personally I find it makes the most sense if the Alliance finds the book in Azsuna first, since that would be their piece of intel and what motivates them to launch the expedition in the first place. In the middle of a the biggest Legion invasion ever, sending an airship and its crew, a faction leader included, against Sylvanas only starts to make sense if you at least have some evidence that there's trouble afoot rather than merely a gut feeling.

    Also the fact that almost all profession quests send you there first to me indicates, or at least implies rather strongly, that Azsuna was indeed the first zone in the expansion before they introduced scaling. Wouldn't be surprised had the order been clockwise from there.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    <snip, see comments below>
    Your comments on points 2 and 3 don't change points 2 and 3 at all. Whether they were justified or not, the Alliance currently is convinced that Sylvanas is up to no good.

    Whether the Alliance was RIGHT for believing the Horde abandoned them on the Broken Shore is entirely irrelevant to whether or not they believed it. (Which they did believe it, true or not.)

    And whether Genn suffered consequences for his attack or not, it turns out he was right to be suspicious of Sylvanas. Yes, I'm in full agreement that he should have been punished for attacking out of line - But what that doesn't do is absolve Sylvanas of guilt of trying to enslave a Titan Watcher's servant, who is our ally. Genn absolutely should have been put back in line when he attacked Sylvanas in open water - But the fact remains that Sylvanas was trying to enslave a Titan Watcher's servant, and that is reason to be wary of her current actions.

    As for the last point, I admit I haven't read the book entirely yet so I don't have all the events in canonical order - But Shaw sending the player right after the in-game quest doesn't mean it happened right after. I can rush through the Suramar quests now, that doesn't mean they all canonically happened within moments of each other - There was a lot of downtime in between.

    It's entirely possible that the canon timeline could be as follows:
    >Sword Stabbing
    >Shaw sends scout to Silithus (We know he did at Anduin's request to see what had happened)
    >Shaw reports what scout found in Silithus; Anduin sends Explorer's League scouts
    >Explorer's League scouts are killed in Silithus
    >Anduin sends SI:7 to Silithus, as he now has reason to believe there is a danger, as his scouts aren't reporting back
    >SI:7 finds dead scouts; begins taking more direct measures against the Horde
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    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Personally I find it makes the most sense if the Alliance finds the book in Azsuna first, since that would be their piece of intel and what motivates them to launch the expedition in the first place. In the middle of a the biggest Legion invasion ever, sending an airship and its crew, a faction leader included, against Sylvanas only starts to make sense if you at least have some evidence that there's trouble afoot rather than merely a gut feeling.

    Also the fact that almost all profession quests send you there first to me indicates, or at least implies rather strongly, that Azsuna was indeed the first zone in the expansion before they introduced scaling. Wouldn't be surprised had the order been clockwise from there.
    The original order was Azsuna to Stormheim and clockwise from there yeah, the video does say this. But I'm dubious as to how many changes were made from that original concept to the first testable version, then live, as I explained in that post you quoted.

    As for the Alliance version being canon, I strongly disagree and I've already given my reasoning for that. There's the fact that neither Genn, nor Rogers nor Anduin ever brings the intel up as the fleet is sent and clearly state that their personal animus and Sylvanas being 'his prey' are his reasons for the attack. There's also that he doesn't even know the tiny information that's in the book by the time he goes to Skold-Ashil and directly says, as Mehrunes already linked, that he has no idea what Sylvanas is doing there up until he familiarizes himself at the very end. If any version is canon, the Horde one where the information is shredded and the Alliance is ignorant better gels with their later conduct. You have to remember that during that time, the Alliance intel agency was run by a dreadlord.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2018-07-12 at 11:13 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #369
    Blizzard are trying so hard to make Alliance the good guys and Sylvanas the bad guy that It's unfathomable to see how anyone can think this is all justified or both sides are "shades of grey", unless they're roleplaying on here.

    Sylvanas is the villain - transparently so. There's no need go get defensive on this, it really annoys me on Alliance too how black and white this is all becoming. Anduin is such a peaceloving hippy that any aggression from the Horde is unjustified. (People keep bringing it back to the Goblin miners again, but they were literally only there to dig up materials to build WOMDs to use on the Alliance. That makes them a military target.)

    Here's what they could have done to solve this whole thing -

    An assassination attempt on Anduin.

    Imagine it. Nobody knows who did it. Baine hears about it from his communication with Anduin and accuses Sylvanas. She denies it was her and is sure it was Genn - and knows that with a Greymane led Alliance he'll be out for the Hordes blood. Pursuing peace with Anduin would leave her and the Horde completely vulnerable if something were to happen to him. Instead she needs to get ready and prepare for the worst.

    You could eventually reveal the assassin to be another twilight cultist or something dumb, but it would allow for Sylvanas actions to be somewhat more reasonable.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2018-07-12 at 11:19 PM.
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  10. #370
    that shit is way too close to org, get it the fuck out

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The original order was Azsuna to Stormheim and clockwise from there yeah, the video does say this. But I'm dubious as to how many changes were made from that original concept to the first testable version, then live, as I explained in that post you quoted.

    As for the Alliance version being canon, I strongly disagree and I've already given my reasoning for that. There's the fact that neither Genn, nor Rogers nor Anduin ever brings the intel up as the fleet is sent and clearly state that their personal animus and Sylvanas being 'his prey' are his reasons for the attack. There's also that he doesn't even know the tiny information that's in the book by the time he goes to Skold-Ashil and directly says, as Mehrunes already linked, that he has no idea what Sylvanas is doing there up until he familiarizes himself at the very end. If any version is canon, the Horde one where the information is shredded and the Alliance is ignorant better gels with their later conduct. You have to remember that during that time, the Alliance intel agency was run by a dreadlord.
    The fleet is sent with Anduin's consent and blessing, however. It seems weird to me that he would authorize such a mission based solely on Genn's feelings. To me it makes more sense that they used the intel to convince him something was up, and they didn't mention it because why bother, they're talking between themselves. It is however true that SI:7 was run by a Dreadlord. Him encouraging the expedition (maybe with false/exaggerated reports) in order to divide and conquer does make perfect sense.

    That said, ultimately I think the discussion is a bit moot, since no amount of evidence available to the Alliance at the time makes the attack on the Forsaken fleet justifiable in my eyes. Not during a Legion invasion. Then again I also hold a grief against Sylvanas for going on such a sidequest during said invasion. So while Genn was the stupider of the two, she's not off the hook.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Out! Out with your logic! We will have none of it here!
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    To THINK that they'd release FOUR of the SIX new Allied Races to play BEFORE the Expansions release is FOOLISH to think
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    Facts I've been told: Horde will never have paladins/Alliance will never have shaman, goblins/worgen/pandaren will never be playable races, demon hunters will never be a playable class, Blizzard will never sell in-game items for real world money, Blizzard will never have classic servers, the max level cap can't go past 100.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The fleet is sent with Anduin's consent and blessing, however. It seems weird to me that he would authorize such a mission based solely on Genn's feelings. To me it makes more sense that they used the intel to convince him something was up, and they didn't mention it because why bother, they're talking between themselves. It is however true that SI:7 was run by a Dreadlord. Him encouraging the expedition (maybe with false/exaggerated reports) in order to divide and conquer does make perfect sense.

    That said, ultimately I think the discussion is a bit moot, since no amount of evidence available to the Alliance at the time makes the attack on the Forsaken fleet justifiable in my eyes. Not during a Legion invasion. Then again I also hold a grief against Sylvanas for going on such a sidequest during said invasion. So while Genn was the stupider of the two, she's not off the hook.
    You have to remember that Anduin only came into his own as king after he found his dad's sword at the Broken Shore. Stormheim was right after his father died and he was emotionally distraught, making him more inclined to make poor calls like this. I don't see Genn and Rogers not mentioning information this vital to their reasoning amongst themselves or at any point after if they had it. Detheroc's role is pure speculation, but I think it's believable, given his hand in what happened right before that.

    As for this. I think Genn acted perfectly in character in attacking and one can argue saving Eyir was worth it in the end, but that was a side-effect, not his intention. As for Sylvanas, she does make clear she'll be going after the Aegis herself while at least a part of the troops back you up.

    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Truthfully, Stormheim holds another treasure. One that I will be pursuing by my own means.
    And when the Alliance attack she declines taking more people with her and goes off on her own, prioritizing the ostensible main mission while leaving her hidden objective for later.

    Nathanos Blightcaller says: My Queen, your safety must be our first concern. Surely we can leave a few ships behind to-
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Do not question me, Nathanos. Now go - make for the Eternity, and bring this hero with you.
    Despite all the memes, Stormheim is a legit case of morally gray writing.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #374
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    Well, had Sylvanas been uninterrupted in enslaving Eyir, she would have gained a crucial tool in combatting the Legion: unlimited troops. Still true that she could have helped out more by actually using her tactical prowess and fighting the Legion, although Khadgar was already spearheading that.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You have to remember that Anduin only came into his own as king after he found his dad's sword at the Broken Shore. Stormheim was right after his father died and he was emotionally distraught, making him more inclined to make poor calls like this. I don't see Genn and Rogers not mentioning information this vital to their reasoning amongst themselves or at any point after if they had it. Detheroc's role is pure speculation, but I think it's believable, given his hand in what happened right before that.

    As for this. I think Genn acted perfectly in character in attacking and one can argue saving Eyir was worth it in the end, but that was a side-effect, not his intention. As for Sylvanas, she does make clear she'll be going after the Aegis herself while at least a part of the troops back you up.



    And when the Alliance attack she declines taking more people with her and goes off on her own, prioritizing the ostensible main mission while leaving her hidden objective for later.



    Despite all the memes, Stormheim is a legit case of morally gray writing.
    Even by Anduin's naive standard I think him actually believing that Rogers and Genn would only spy on Sylvanas was out of character personally. He's not that big of a fool even considering the stressful circumstances.

    Yeah, the quests say this, but in actuality you're helped by the batrider lady and that's it after the initial foray to find Sylv, while Nathanos has an entire Forsaken warcamp fighting Worgen near Skold-Ashil which is the secondary objective, and that happens before you find the Aegis. Also she has no problem leaving you to rot in Helheim. Actions speak louder than words in this case. But let's not make an offhand comment into another Sylavanas circlejerk.

    I do agree that Stormheim was a case of grey writing overall even if it relies on somebody being pretty stupid. If only it had been the standard going forward.

  16. #376
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alienated Liberal Mitten View Post
    Ok. This would basically turn on who has the fault first and that isn't really worth discussing.
    That is literally the opposite of what I'm saying, ALM... I'm saying that both sides have plenty of reasons to hate or fear the other. That the Alliance -is- fearsome to the Horde, rather than the cinnamon roll kittens that some players think they are, and that that fact does not diminish the crimes the Horde has committed or the danger it poses to the Alliance. It has nothing to do with "At Fault First" or anything of the sort. Reread my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alienated Liberal Mitten View Post
    Sylvanas already had the intention to attack the Alliance eventually. At best you can argue that it sped up her plans and this probably for the better too since it cuts her time from developing far more devastating weapons.
    Intention is questionable at best. Was that her intention? Was it a fantasy?

    I've got a million dollars and a jar of Arsenic, here. Tomorrow night, I'm going to give you a million dollars as long as you intend to drink this arsenic on Saturday. But on Saturday you don't have to drink it. If you don't drink it on Saturday, can you ever have been said to intend to do it? Did you ever actually intend to drink the Arsenic on Saturday and just change your mind later? Or did you only tell yourself that you intended to do it?

    Intention without action is meaningless. Sylvanas "Intended" to invade Stormwind and wound up attacking Teldrassil, instead. You have to base moral understanding based on someone's Motives and Actions. Not off their Intentions as they stand, alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alienated Liberal Mitten View Post
    Unless you subscribe to a naive form of it and even then I'd argue that Sylvanas actions to save her people and by extension herself make her an utility monster, since she doesn't seem to show any limit she will not cross to achieve her objectives. Besides we can judge how effective these actions were, Sylvanas attacking Gilneas costed her Valkyrs after all, which are essential to the survival of their people and its unclear if THAT is the threat that would decimate the undead or in true greek tragedy fashion her actions are paving the way for the vision to come true.
    No. It's not a "Naive" form of it. Consequentialism is -literally- "The Ends Justify the Means" as a moral stance with all the baggage that bears with it. Utility Monsters are the flaw of Utilitarianism, not of other moral philosophies because other moral philosophies don't try to base their morality on the utility of actions. If I were to ascribe a moral philosophy to Sylvanas it would be either Moral Pragmatism or Moral Particularism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alienated Liberal Mitten View Post
    I probably need to give the audiobook another listen (couldn't resist the free trial :P) . But I recall something along those lines, but if I'm wrong I'm wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Before the Storm
    Anduin leveled his blue-eyed gaze at Greymane. “I would say that what makes us better than her is that we do think so.” As Genn started to protest, Anduin lifted a hand. “But I would never leave the Alliance vulnerable. With enough information, we can apply our skills to more than one task.”
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Except the Forsaken don't know they were "fucked over" as you put it - only rumors persist about Sylvanas' activities in Stormheim, of which only Nathanos, Sylvanas, and the Champion appear to know the truth (as per "Before the Storm"). So a public apology/proverbial flogging may indeed have worked.

    .
    ... maybe they don't know about the Eyir part? But they do know that while on the way to fight the Legion, the Alliance appeared out of nowhere and blew up their ships, killing uncounted Forsaken, and did so for no apparent reason and with no apparent reprisal.

    So... y'know.

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  17. #377
    Pandaren Monk Clone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Is it though? Like 90% of regular Alliance posters also spread this lie. And many, many other common lies that are easily disproved by actual quest text and other easily found canon lore *cough* Alliance is never the aggressor *cough* It'd be weird if they were all constantly insulting each other.
    Of course man. "Lying is an offense against yourself." - El Sueno. The fact they think they can get away with it is an insult to everyone that knows the truth.

    Edit: I totally get what you are saying though.
    Last edited by Clone; 2018-07-13 at 12:58 AM.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by meowfurion View Post
    ........Wait what??

    What????????

    The Horde's ENTIRE MODUS OPERANDI has been "we are outcasts and victims" from day. fucking. one. What kinda good ass shit weed are you smoking?
    Look at Wrathgate. Both sides were betrayed. Both sides were ambushed. Both sides lost people close to the heart of high ranking leaders. Did the Alliance even stop to think of the scores of Horde soldiers caught in the attack. Or was the only thing Varian cared about that Alliance soldiers and Bolvar died? It was the latter. If Varian had stopped to think he would've wondered what the Horde had to gain from bombing and killing their own people, among them their top general's son. And realized that the Horde was not behind the attack. Instead the thought of Horde losses didn't cross his mind, and he attacks Undercity with "our poor people are dead, our poor city is occupied by monsters, we need to get revenge."
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  19. #379
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    I think burning down the tree is a stupid idea. If you're gunna be evil and murder all the civilians, fine, but why burn free real estate? Is Sylvanas just a crazy person, or?

  20. #380
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    I think burning down the tree is a stupid idea. If you're gunna be evil and murder all the civilians, fine, but why burn free real estate? Is Sylvanas just a crazy person, or?
    It looks like Azshara is the one who burns it down in her animatic. Not Sylvanas.
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