Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Deleted]

The Alliance were treacherous little bitches in Stormheim during the goddamn APOCALYPSE when the two were supposedly allies, if course the Horde are right in attacking first after the Legion’s been dealt with and Azerite has emerged. The Alliance would undoubtedly use it against them eventually. Sylvanas just fired first.

Too slow hoes!!

We get it, You love Sylanas but still, Stick with Real facts and not your made up version. Reread Stormheim again.

[Verdugo]

. Reread Stormheim again.

Maybe you should take your own advice. Especialy the Alliance version where they clearly mention that they dont know what the fuck is Sylvanas about to do.

[Broken Fox]

We get it, You love Sylanas but still, Stick with Real facts and not your made up version. Reread Stormheim again.

Tell me where I'm wrong, doofus

[mysticx]

Thing is, they didnt know that. They went after her only because she was there and at best they had a hunch based on a damaged journal.

That's the problem with two huge (And evenly matched) groups facing off: Neither group can afford letting the other get a big advantage, so of course the Alliance sent people out to see what Sylvanas is up to (The Horde's track record of what they do with technological advantages is also worrying, to say the very least), sending Greymane and Rogers of all people out there to do it was a mistake on Anduin's part, those two have a huge personal beef with Sylvanas, so only the most naive person in the world (*cough*Anduin*cough*) would choose those exact two, but that was just to serve the story (The Alliance had to have some purpose there other than Odyn's obstacle course), as we all know, Blizz writing is a bit shaky at best...

So yeah, the Alliance did something naughty out there, but since the Horde was going to be picking a fight at the earliest opportunity anyway (They always do, there's always some lame excuse), i'm glad they did, it was the one time the Alliance took any initiative since i don't know when.

[Theodarzna]

Y’all really need to think of new insults

Y'all need to be less transparent.

[Doffen]

Y'all need to be less transparent.

Whats up y'all.

- - - Updated - - -

Y’all really need to think of new insults.

Tell me where I'm wrong, doofus

The irony.

[Verdugo]

So yeah, the Alliance did something naughty out there, but since the Horde was going to be picking a fight at the earliest opportunity anyway (They always do, there's always some lame excuse), i'm glad they did, it was the one time the Alliance took any initiative since i don't know when.

Well duh, even when Alliance does something tiny bit shady, it always turns out they were right like the perfect lawful good protagonists they are.

This is what happens when Blizzard tries to please the Alliance fans, and of course they will always want more and wont stop until Horde is either destroyed or stomped into dirt.

[mysticx]

Well duh, even when Alliance does something tiny bit shady, it always turns out they were right like the perfect lawful good protagonists they are.

This is what happens when Blizzard tries to please the Alliance fans, and of course they will always want more and wont stop until Horde is either destroyed or stomped into dirt.

The problem is that i'm not really pleased at all, why is the Alliance only ever responding to the Horde? Let the Alliance do something shady (Without "You blundered into doing the right thing, thank heavens for that!" afterwards), or strike first without a prepared excuse, "They'll attack us anyway" seems a good reason for a fight to me (How many sucker-punches must the Alliance take before they get the message?), as cartoonish-evil as the Horde is these days, (l)awful good is boring too, i'm hoping (Against my better judgment, but hope springs eternal) that the whole Teldrassil-affair awakens some actual fighting spirit in at least some of the Alliance leaders, if the Horde is that dead-set on war, let's give them one! >_<

[Verdugo]

The problem is that i'm not really pleased at all, why is the Alliance only ever responding to the Horde? Let the Alliance do something shady (Without "You blundered into doing the right thing, thank heavens for that!" afterwards), or strike first without a prepared excuse, "They'll attack us anyway" seems a good reason for a fight to me (How many sucker-punches must the Alliance take before they get the message?), as cartoonish-evil as the Horde is these days, (l)awful good is boring too, i'm hoping (Against my better judgment, but hope springs eternal) that the whole Teldrassil-affair awakens some actual fighting spirit in at least some of the Alliance leaders, if the Horde is that dead-set on war, let's give them one! >_<

Thats because contrary to popular belief, most Alliance players LOVE being the human lawful good empire with friends that cant do bad deeds. Thats why Blizzard is afraid to show anything shady on the Alliance side and when its shown to the horde, they wont acknowledge it because they like playing the good guys only.

[mysticx]

Thats because contrary to popular belief, most Alliance players LOVE being the human lawful good empire with friends that cant do bad deeds. Thats why Blizzard is afraid to show anything shady on the Alliance side and when its shown to the horde, they wont acknowledge it because they like playing the good guys only.

It’s a shame that Blizz goes along with that rather childish outlook so much, both factions could do with a bit more grey to them, as much as the Alliance wallows in “Holier than thou”, the Horde is self-destructively evil, the story would be well served if both factions moved a bit towards the middle, they can both stay at their current side of “Neutral”, but being a bit less extreme wouldn’t go amiss...

[Pandragon]

Who cares. It's not like any city other than Org or Stormwind mean anything. Everything just gets put into those 2 cities, and the rest of them are ignored.

[The Stormbringer]

Who cares. It's not like any city other than Org or Stormwind mean anything. Everything just gets put into those 2 cities, and the rest of them are ignored.

I find Ironforge much less laggy and more peaceful than Stormwind. It could use some updates, though...

[Jastall]

It’s a shame that Blizz goes along with that rather childish outlook so much, both factions could do with a bit more grey to them, as much as the Alliance wallows in “Holier than thou”, the Horde is self-destructively evil, the story would be well served if both factions moved a bit towards the middle, they can both stay at their current side of “Neutral”, but being a bit less extreme wouldn’t go amiss...

Being reasonable doesn't inflame faction-related passions and, in the context where both factions should by all rights be drained of manpower and resources, doesn't start wars.

[Broken Fox]

It’s a shame that Blizz goes along with that rather childish outlook so much, both factions could do with a bit more grey to them, as much as the Alliance wallows in “Holier than thou”, the Horde is self-destructively evil, the story would be well served if both factions moved a bit towards the middle, they can both stay at their current side of “Neutral”, but being a bit less extreme wouldn’t go amiss...

They were to a degree when Varian was in charge and Jaina was in full rabies mode. Unless Anduin dramatically changes or is killed off it’s gonna be hard for the Alliance to veer off from being the golden choir boy faction. They should put Maiev in charge of the Night Elves since she actually has some balls and the current ruling couple are fucking idiots, give Mekkatorque more screen time, have Genn do more reckless shit and uhh yeah.. kill Anduin.

[mickybrighteyes]

Being reasonable doesn't inflame faction-related passions and, in the context where both factions should by all rights be drained of manpower and resources, doesn't start wars.

i think it's more 'reasonable' as in the various characters aren't all dripping with cartoon levels of stupid in their actions or pointlessly jumping into over-the-top antics. Like Garrosh going orc hitler or this handling of azerite... or basically anything Tyrande has done... since vanilla...

[Feanoro]

Maiev in charge of the Night Elves since she actually has some balls and the current ruling couple are fucking idiots, give Mekkatorque more screen time, have Genn do more reckless shit and uhh yeah.. kill Anduin.

All this requires decent writers who don't have an openly stated preference. They had no problem with Super Mega Aspect Thrall of Doom, but Malf can only blind and run away.

[Steampunkette]

On the last part. I'll toss the bits about Eyir and the like for another thread, but I would recommend checking out the bits with the Tidesage in BFA if you haven't already. The war campaign handles necromancy with much more nuance than Cataclysm and addresses much of what I've said. My positions are two:
1. That the Forsaken as a political faction are evil, more so than any other playable race. Discussing their nature is moot, since they're just undead humans.
2. That any undead are inferior to the living based on the CDev and Chronicle statements already gone over, the treatment of undeath in the story as a horrible curse to which death is preferable and their reduced capacities on both the emotional and physical level and their inability to cohabit with other races without massive changes to their state (Be it having Eyir on call or the Light).

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this!

So. We know that they've got reduced emotional capacity... to some degree. They're clearly still -capable- of feeling love and passion and joy, even though it's comparatively muted, or had been. Or at least that's what we'd been told during the CDev asks.

But.

We also see them EXCITED at the fields of Arathi. On hearing his name read, Parqual, the half-mummified paper-skinned Forsaken -rushes- his ass over to stand in front of his daughter wearing a smile "As big as (Calia's) heart felt". The Felstones glomped onto their mother so tightly they nearly killed the woman with their overwhelming love for her. When his daughter saw her teddy bear on the table Parqual chuckled at the simple delight of seeing his daughter and her childhood toy. When she asked if she could hold his hand, Joy, Love, and Hope flashed across his face, unhindered by the dead and rigid flesh that conveyed the emotions.

Meanwhile Elsie, for whom there was no one to meet, was sharing in the joy of the rest of the Council's happiness. And when Anduin waved at her, she was so filled with giddy joy. "Pleasure rushed through her" when Anduin waved back. And when Anduin gave her a tiny bow, she laughed brightly in surprise.

So which is the truth? That they can't feel joy or pleasure? Before the Storm seems to have stepped all over that idea as we're explicitly told what the Forsaken feel in the moment. We're shown them laughing and hugging and gently holding hands. Or waving like lunatics and giggling like little girls when someone important waves back or offers a tiny bow. Is it muted? Then why the happy chuckle at something so small as a girl wanting her childhood toy? Elsie Benton was not a Priest. She didn't use the light or flood herself with it on the regular to build up her emotions back toward "Normal" as the CDevs remarked was possible.

How can you even share in someone else's joy if you're unable to feel it? Even if your own joy is only -muted- rather than gone, sharing in someone else's joy is a muted happiness to begin with, so wouldn't it barely register?

Is it a retcon? A Mistake? Do the Forsaken gradually adjust over time to a degree that their emotional threshholds of Joy or Pleasure are lowered so much that even the tiny bit they feel is interpreted as "Filled with Joy"?

The fact is that the devs didn't say they can't feel positive emotions. Only that they've had "Flashes" of positive emotion so rarely since they became undead. Maybe it has more to do with nothing good really happening in the Undercity? 'Cause we're shown forsaken feeling -prolonged- delight as they spend time with their loved ones that were torn from them by political alliances, here.

They clearly experience joy at little things, like waving at a king or seeing their daughter happy about a teddy bear, or sharing in the simple joy of a family reunion. Maybe there's just not many "Little Things" to enjoy in the Undercity, much less big things?

Hell... Velcinda is described as a genuinely caring person with a kind heart long before the Highlands. And she took that kindness and viewed her "Dark Gift" from Sylvanas as a second chance, not a curse. And she describes the other forsaken as:

Many other Forsaken, such as her friend and fellow Governor Parqual, seemed to miss their loved ones as much as she did. Others seemed lukewarm, and still others didn’t care at all. Some were even…evil. What had happened, to her, to them, to have such differing personalities and mind-sets? It was one of the mysteries about being Forsaken.

Many care, some kind of care, some don't care, and -some- were evil. So being Forsaken on it's face doesn't -make- you evil by it's nature, though some people do become evil or just let their evil nature out. Like Mr. Lobotomy back in Vanilla.

And... really... isn't the difference between a Curse and a Gift one's mindset? One's perspective? Can't those things change, in time?

[brbshower]

Both sides are justified if people stop pulling random events from wow's past out of the arse. The issue isn't Sylvanas attacking the alliance, the issue is she attacked Teldrassil/Darkshore and put the torch to women/children/innocents. It would be completely different if she had attacked a military outpost. But the Horde literally rolled into suburbia and started taking out families. THAT is never justified, idc if you are Horde or Alliance.

Anyway, now that I settled that...move along folks. Nothing to see here anymore except children trying to one up each other by bringing up past events that have no direct impact on the current storyline.

[Super Dickmann]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this!

The delay is mutual, so no worries.

So. We know that they've got reduced emotional capacity... to some degree. They're clearly still -capable- of feeling love and passion and joy, even though it's comparatively muted, or had been. Or at least that's what we'd been told during the CDev asks.

Much of your argument from here on out addresses the specific example, so I will have to clarify my claims a bit. My statement is not that the undead are incapable of feeling positive emotions, so much as these qualities are dulled. The Desolate Council are among the most wholesome part of this spectrum, but they don't dispute the general sentiment and they don't really address the morality of the Forsaken as a political faction either. I'm not disputing that the Forsaken can feel affection or positive feelings, so much as that their general capacity is lower than that of the living and in turn, their capacity for negative emotions is heightened.

My sentiment isn't that being Forsaken makes you evil, because there's no real difference in terms of being Forsaken than being an undead human raised in another way like Meryl Felstorm. Both are forms of undeath and undeath has its penalties. On the other hand, the Forsaken as a political group has committed many deeds that the other races have not and have been largely apathetic of them. My argument regarding nature only affects undeath as a whole, and my claim in that regard is that they're more limited in certain ways and thus inferior to the living. My argument on the Forsaken as a political group is that the evil acts I've listed earlier mean that they are as a whole an evil faction, even if that doesn't apply across all of them individually.

[Steampunkette]

The delay is mutual, so no worries.



Much of your argument from here on out addresses the specific example, so I will have to clarify my claims a bit. My statement is not that the undead are incapable of feeling positive emotions, so much as these qualities are dulled. The Desolate Council are among the most wholesome part of this spectrum, but they don't dispute the general sentiment and they don't really address the morality of the Forsaken as a political faction either. I'm not disputing that the Forsaken can feel affection or positive feelings, so much as that their general capacity is lower than that of the living and in turn, their capacity for negative emotions is heightened.

My sentiment isn't that being Forsaken makes you evil, because there's no real difference in terms of being Forsaken than being an undead human raised in another way like Meryl Felstorm. Both are forms of undeath and undeath has its penalties. On the other hand, the Forsaken as a political group has committed many deeds that the other races have not and have been largely apathetic of them. My argument regarding nature only affects undeath as a whole, and my claim in that regard is that they're more limited in certain ways and thus inferior to the living. My argument on the Forsaken as a political group is that the evil acts I've listed earlier mean that they are as a whole an evil faction, even if that doesn't apply across all of them individually.

My point in that post was rather showing that what the devs have said in the past doesn't line up with what we've been shown. And then I posted the four most plausible reasons:

1) It's a Retcon
2) It's a Mistake
3) It was never about their actual emotional capacity and more about their lives having been pretty shit since Arthas murdered them.
4) They can adapt over time to get as much emotional response out of a smaller emotional input.

I was remarking on this to discuss the implications that being Forsaken is an inferior state.

Similarly, in BtS, both Tevan and Elsie ruminate on being immortal but suddenly hyperaware of the damage their bodies can take (since injury can kill them). Elsie responds to that with "Flesh has always been fragile." Meanwhile unlike Anduin if Tevan loses a hand, he can just get a fresh one sewn on. Can't grow muscle mass, but apparently they don't lose any they have (And can just go get more and attach it) so that's kind of a wash... They don't -need- to breathe, but still can. They still eat and have a heartbeat, though, which is weird? The biggest one is that they can't have kids...

But neither can I. And I don't consider myself inferior by comparison to other people.

As to them being evil as a political group: A Political group is not always it's people. It can be the direct will of the people (Like Communism or other states which have no separated government from the people), be representative of the will of the people (Such as Democracy as we know it in the modern day), or it can be completely divorced from the will of the people (Like the various Monarchies of Azeroth, including the Banshee Queen)

I posit that the Forsaken aren't an evil Political Entity because the Forsaken are removed from power. Their will is irrelevant to their Monarch, who instead makes the decisions and organizes the assets. While some parts of Forsaken Society -are- evil, such as Stillwater, Sylvanas, the RAS, and others, the overall society is largely morally neutral. (The RPG listed the population as 13,000, with 3,500 as RAS members, to give us some -idea- of scale, though the numbers are non-canon). The Forsaken aren't evil any more than the Gilneans are, regardless of the crimes their sovereign has committed in their name, or attempted to same.

The greatest evils committed by the Forsaken people, as a people rather than a political entity, were performed by the evil bastards in the Royal Apothecary Society... And the evil bastards in that are pretty much dead at this point since we had to kill them for being traitors toward the end of Wrath of the Lich King. Elsie Benton is an RAS doctor, by the by... so even that organization wasn't wholly monstrous and some were left alive rather than there being a complete turnover.

The RAS had a goal handed down from Sylvanas, but the way they achieved that goal was a series of crimes against humanity. There is -still- some of that going on in the Cataclysm content... but the RAS has largely been irrelevant since we killed the bulk of them.