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  1. #1

    A simpler talent tree..

    So Blizzard have removed talents from certain classes and replaced them with legendaries or artifact traits. Basically creating a washed up version of what we had in legion. However if we look at the fire mage they have 3 "new" talents that have replaced old ones which are these legendary and artifact traits.

    But what seems really obvious to me is blizzard could of just added a level 120 talent row, with the 3 talents they've replaced with the old ones? this solution is right in front of us all and yet its so good in my opinion, I don't know if it would be better then the legion systems we have, however I'm pretty sure its better then what we're getting.

    This adds to class progression, you maintain talents you did in legion. Because the reason the legendaries were so good is because they worked with other talents so well, now we have to choose between the two. And that's not fun + with this new talent row you keep that synergy with the legendaries and talents.

    Tell me your thoughts boys

  2. #2
    I'm not a fan of the current talent system and I haven't been since it was launched.

    The intention behind the current system is obvious: It's simpler. But where Blizzard says talents should feel "situational," they always seem to make one talent on the row seem diametrically apposed to another talent either on the same row or somewhere else in the tree. This creates a frustrating experience for players since there never seems to be any uniformity in the way the talents are divvied up between classes. (ie, Frost Mage has fewer gameplay impacting talents than BM Hunter, so players feel like the Devs dealt BM Hunters a worse hand.)

    That said, I don't think the previous system was much better; even though there was the illusion of more choice, people always ended up using cookie cutter specs. The best solution, imo, is to just make more shit baseline and only put legitimately situational non-playstyle impacting talents in the tree.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2018-07-13 at 11:49 PM.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Enrif's Avatar
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    Once upon a time, the talent tree system was used to differentiate a tank warrior from a dps warrios and other stuff. But then each Talents tree become its own spec capped of the other talents trees. no more half tank half dps builds. Instead we got Talent trees that gave options inside the Spec.

    And i personally think here is the problem. while the old talent trees had theirs problems and also cookie cutter builds, they were indeed more flexible, while the currents ones are an illusion of flexibility. Your Spec plays nearly the same no matter what talents you choose. There are only a handful of really gameplay changing talents.

    The talent system in it's current form was introduced in MOP, so with BfA this will be the forth expansion with this system and i think i needs to be replaced, like the old system was replaced after the third expansion.

    the question really is, how or what should be the successor be to such a system? Making everything baseline and getting rid of talent choices all together? going it the way of the HotS and only giving you like 5 decisions?


    If i would be the game dev i would actually go back and make a mix between the old classic system and the new one. More choices, but not as many redundant ones as in classic. Also the ability to put talent points into the other specs. Making a DPS Spec a bit more tanky, a Tank spec a little more DPS, Healing for a DPS spec, DotS for a direct damage spec etc,etc.
    There still would be cookie cutter builds, they are unavoidable. But with this system there might be more options to play in a interesting way.
    Exempel: Mythic+, 5 DPS, one off specced into tanking, one Off speced into healing vs 3DPS +1tank&healer both off specced into DPS.
    The first comp would have more damage but the second would have more survivability. Which one is better? depends on the affixes, the dungeon, the group and on the choices of the player

  4. #4
    Deleted
    they just need to bring back classic talent trees and stop pretending that their "fresh" take on the talent system is nothing but meh.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by zupf View Post
    they just need to bring back classic talent trees and stop pretending that their "fresh" take on the talent system is nothing but meh.
    The "old" talent trees are basically the same thing as the artifact progression line, just at max level. Tertiary stat buff to abilities in a tree, it's just prettier.

  6. #6
    I am Murloc! Frolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zupf View Post
    they just need to bring back classic talent trees and stop pretending that their "fresh" take on the talent system is nothing but meh.
    old tree is so shit compared to current one, with current one u get to chose from boss to boss, singletarget/aoe, for tanks if u wanna go offensive/defensive, and easier to change on the fly.
    R I P old signature.

  7. #7
    The current iteration of talents is as basic as it gets, any simpler and they may as well take it away all together.

    Bring in the FFX/PoE talent map imo.

  8. #8
    I would like to see a "cosmetic" talent tree.

    This tree could be instead of or in addition to the current tree.

    It has each of your spells and abilities and has three options to change your spell/ ability in a cosmetic way. You could pick one of the three. You could even make hidden ones that have to be secretly unlocked somehow.

    For example: A row for fireball: <fireball now shoots out three fireballs> <fireball is colored blue> <fireball detonates on impact in a huge explosion with smoke> Secret options: <Rainbow Fireball> (unlocked by doing some crazy grindy pain in the neck thing) <Fireball drops down from the sky instead of shooting from hand> (unlocked by killing some rare beast that only appears .00001% of the time and is currently being camped by thousands of players)

    There can be crafting ones, etc. They have even done a little of this with glyphs. I think the customization would be great.

    For BfA they should have redid all the the trees to include all the artifact and legendary abilities that were cool. There was a great opportunity that was missed. All those abilities have been tested, fleshed out and were in game. Why in the world would you waste that?

    They need to fix these trees though, the current model is boring and unengaging. It doesn't offer the opportunity for experimental or fun builds at all.

  9. #9
    My thoughts are no matter how many armchair devs make shitposts on new accounts on this website, you're going to buy, play, and enjoy the expansion and the billion dollar company's ideas are better than yours.
    Prot Warrior 2004-2008. Hunter 2008-2018.
    Waiting for WC3 Reforged. For the Horde.

  10. #10
    I agree that we should have got a new row of max level talents this expansion.

    Azerite gear isn't going to give me that awesome feeling of "something new" once I hit the max level. The artifact weapons gave me this because of how I needed to progress the tree and it would change things up for me in one way or another.

    I do like these talent trees over the classic system, but it's certainly not perfect and even though button bloat is a thing and I'm overall pretty happy with how Blizzard has chosen to combat it to create a fresh slate for characters from expansion to expansion it's been a damn long time since we've gotten a new talent.

    While there's a lot of fun and interesting stuff going on in BfA and I'll be leveling both Horde and Alliance to take advantage of the full storyline, the systems they've worked in with Azerite are really leaving me cold. Doubly so coming off of Legion where it was so much about class and spec and the artifact weapon progression in both cosmetic and realized power.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    They should have 2 talent trees tbh. 1 for gameplay changing talents and another for utility/defensives.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I'm not a fan of the current talent system and I haven't been since it was launched.

    The intention behind the current system is obvious: It's simpler. But where Blizzard says talents should feel "situational," they always seem to make one talent on the row seem diametrically apposed to another talent either on the same row or somewhere else in the tree. This creates a frustrating experience for players since there never seems to be any uniformity in the way the talents are divvied up between classes. (ie, Frost Mage has fewer gameplay impacting talents than BM Hunter, so players feel like the Devs dealt BM Hunters a worse hand.)

    That said, I don't think the previous system was much better; even though there was the illusion of more choice, people always ended up using cookie cutter specs. The best solution, imo, is to just make more shit baseline and only put legitimately situational non-playstyle impacting talents in the tree.
    How on earth can something be both "situational" and "not impact playstyle?"

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by torish View Post
    I think WoW should have a free skill system, where you select a few skills from a large set of class skills to be active.

    Means, specs get removed and you would have the freedom to create even hybrids as like a tanky healer with melee weapon.

    That would give a lot of freedom, and would be very RPG'ish compared to the current, very balance-oriented approach.

    An RPG should not all be about balance, but about a multitude of possible choices.

    And cookie cutting is no real argument, as every talent system, no matter how big it is, has cookie cutter builds.
    Sounds like Wildstar, which was kinda terrible.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by torish View Post
    While the game Wildstar was terrible, the skill system wasnt that much. Also, the skill system was activated through talent systems, while the spell choice system in wow could have a lot different sources. As like spells being part of the leveling experience, as like getting spells from gear and from tomes.
    Again, that's Wildstar and for good measure Diablo 3.

    Until they release Diablo 4 I'm pretty sure D3 isn't the incubator for WoW it once was. The pinnacle of that crucible being Legion.

  15. #15
    Warchief Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    The replaced fire mage talents were never picked or were too tedious. There was no need to add a talent row for that matter. I however am in favor of a more detailed talent tree as most specs feel stagnant atm.

  16. #16
    The talent situation is a bit of a dumpster fire to be honest.
    The fact that some artifact and legendary abilties moved into talents just means they compete against other talents on their respective rows. Which means we 'lost' abilities.
    Another annoyance of mine is throughput talents vs. utility talents on the same row. You always pick the throughput.
    And on top of this they figured putting in restrictions on how often you can change talents was a good idea :-(

    At this point it would be better to just burn the current system and start over again. I don't understand who it's supposed to serve and why.

    Either you have it as a "optional throughput boosts to existing abilities" like it was in the old days to flesh out your spec (which means your choices are fairly static) or you have it as situationally useful extra abilties which you can switch into when you need them, like it was around MoP/WoD.

    I personally preferred the last option, because I think it's fun to switch abilties to match encounter needs - it gives a bit of extra depth and makes me feel like I have a choice (even though it's really not that impactful).

    The system we had in Legion and the way it seems to be going in BFA is just meh. I can't stand it and I don't really understand what it's trying to accomplish.
    Last edited by Greyscale; 2018-07-14 at 04:39 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I'm not a fan of the current talent system and I haven't been since it was launched.

    The intention behind the current system is obvious: It's simpler. But where Blizzard says talents should feel "situational," they always seem to make one talent on the row seem diametrically apposed to another talent either on the same row or somewhere else in the tree. This creates a frustrating experience for players since there never seems to be any uniformity in the way the talents are divvied up between classes. (ie, Frost Mage has fewer gameplay impacting talents than BM Hunter, so players feel like the Devs dealt BM Hunters a worse hand.)

    That said, I don't think the previous system was much better; even though there was the illusion of more choice, people always ended up using cookie cutter specs. The best solution, imo, is to just make more shit baseline and only put legitimately situational non-playstyle impacting talents in the tree.
    They seem to at least try and fix that in BfA, with each talent row being clearly devoted to a particular aspect (the mobility row, the burst AoE row, the sustained ST row, so on and so forth). If every spec has such a similar row, I see less disparity between talent impacts being possible.

    I do agree that talents would probably be better if they were extra stuff that feels like a bonus, while some (like Inner Rage or Massacre for Fury in Legion) just made you ask why this shit isn't baseline already.

    I'd still take them over the cookie cutter old trees that you set at max level then forgot about entirely until Blizzard revamped them and gave you back your talent points.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by torish View Post
    It seems the new system is all about developer convenience, to have an easy balancable set of talents.

    While that is very counter-intuitive against a typical RPG.
    Yeah, there's been a drive to "balance all the things" in the past years - and that has lead to the situation where every class/spec must feel very similar in order for them to be "easy to pick up".

    I don't believe everything needs to be balanced like that. In fact, I believe that's a very bad long-term design choice. It's ok that some classes/specs are "hard to play" or "complicated". It's ok to have strange quirks you have to get used to or weird mechanics like snapshotting. Not every class needs to be easy to master for every one. Designing everthing for the lowest common denominator doesn't leave much space for variation.

    The "class fantasy" idea was nice, but it never actually reflected in the way specs/classes played. You can't build varied specs if the core of every class is he same builder/spender mechanic. Having to use 3 or 5 builder points isn't enough of a diffrentiator.

    It's frustrating.

  19. #19
    Talent system designer chiming in:

    The new talent tree since MOP is intended to be simpler. The old days of 31/20 builds created traps for novice players, and resulted in cookie-cutting for experienced players. The new system is intended to remove these situations by creating deviations. Specifically in regards to the new talents, there will always be a build (for non-utility talents) that will be the 'best' because it is the most simple and most thematic for the class. The other two talents are usually a deviation of the main theme, and the third is typically a niche talent.

    In general, the new system eschews classic character progression for 'rotational deviation'. Its intended to impacts how you play than how strong you are.

    edit: the idea of adding new talent rows is possible, but becomes increasingly more complex as you add more rows. Right now Blizz is focusing on the azerite traits to be the progression/decision factor and putting less on talent systems.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zupf View Post
    they just need to bring back classic talent trees and stop pretending that their "fresh" take on the talent system is nothing but meh.
    Pretty much this. It would be nice if the game offered a choice between defensive and offensive talents - and balanced around a certain amount of defensive talents taken by the player, ala Path of Exile. But alas, I guess Blizz cba anymore...

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