Why do people like Mythic +?

[ReD-EyeD]

Mythic plus barely gave any artifact power as it was

To be fair it was a big chunk of AP first few months. They nerfed it hard.

[Alkizon]

Mythic plus barely gave any artifact power as it was, and it didn't really become any more rewarding beyond +15 in terms of loot, yet I still ran at least ten +22-23 every week for months. Meanwhile I stopped raiding Antorus after two months with two mythic bosses down because it wasn't fun and it wasn't worth the time or effort to keep it going.

As to those posts of yours, what exactly makes raids "real progression"? M+ is another endgame point for people to enjoy, they can choose for themselves whether to enjoy one or the other, both, or neither. No one forces you to run m+ just as no one forces me to raid.

Exactly, for both paragraphs.

Therefore, people are bored and therefore they aren't motivated for go with better score, just doing low keys and wait for RNG-win But if you limit them from below, for example with "heroic mode", they will have to learn and participate.

And as for the raids and dungeon design I have already explained enough - look at classiс, here they are a "real" masterpiece of design: big, beautiful, thought out, alive; not as this 10 minute garbage with generated from fixed standard set of "problems" (what do you know about Ulduar difficulties, did you read this part too?). Of course you are bored, because design is bad, because developers are lazy. Dungeons were designed for progress, not challenges (M+).

I already wrote there, I'm not against "challenging", I'm against of their participants are allowed to violate game design rules.

ps. So what then, can we take this free RNG-feeder away, since you don't care about its rewards, do you? You like challenges? Good! But let them go "out of progress", because you like just process, and we will see.

[Deleted]

Exactly, for both paragraphs.

Therefore, people are bored and therefore they don't want for go with better score, just doing low keys and wait for RNG-win But if you limit them from below, for example with "heroic mode", they will have to learn and participate.

What? That's the exact opposite of what I said... Or am I misunderstanding something?

And as for the raids and dungeon design I have already explained enough - look at classiс, here they are a "real" masterpiece of design: big, beautiful, thought out, alive; not as this 10 minute garbage with generated from fixed standard set of "problems" (what do you know about Ulduar difficulties, did you read this part too?). Of course you are bored, because design is bad, because developers are lazy.

I already wrote there, I'm not against "challenging", I'm against of that their participants are allowed to violate game design rules.

ps. So what then, can we take this free RNG-feeder away, since you don't care about this rewards, do you?

Vanilla's dungeons had a sense of wonder that we haven't really seen since then, but people in general also appear to be in much more of a hurry these days, not just in WoW but in games in general. A dungeon like Blackrock Deapths woudn't be possible by today's standards, as much as I would love a dungeon like that, because people want content in 20-40 minute chunks or less, something m+ is perfect for.

M+ is as I said, meant to serve as endgame content, just like raids. If you were to remove its loot as a reward, you would have to remove it from raids as well.

[Alkizon]

Sabine Wren
What? That's the exact opposite of what I said... Or am I misunderstanding something?

What I said is a consequence of what you said, it's just logical conclusion of this and if you don't understand it... well, then, unfortunately, I can't help you. I don't know how to explain this easier.

Sabine Wren
Vanilla's dungeons had a sense of wonder that we haven't really seen since then, but people in general also appear to be in much more of a hurry these days, not just in WoW but in games in general. A dungeon like Blackrock Deapths woudn't be possible by today's standards, as much as I would love a dungeon like that, because people want content in 20-40 minute chunks or less, something m+ is perfect for.

M+ is as I said, meant to serve as endgame content, just like raids. If you were to remove its loot as a reward, you would have to remove it from raids as well.

And you think where people have such mentality from? Why are these people are main audience of this game now? This is just a consequence of changes and we have already talked about this many times <1><2>(3, 4), or tl;dr. New design makes them so, but it shouldn't, because it's a different bars, different levels, different "ceilings" (but you've already read about it).

Developers are lazy, because it's faster and cheaper to do this content. But you still didn't answered my question. Will it still be just as fun and interesting for you to take part, but only for a "symbolic" award?

--- Edited ---
I can even fantasize over some stupid "addition" as a parameter (and design of this game was initially completely tied to control only through characteristics, but not the way they trying to push in last expansions). For example: raid gear will have separate additional line that will add a couple of percent of "benefits" in case when there are more than 5 people in the group (but only! raid gear) or something else trickier, but only! as characteristic. I hope you got the gist. Let's call it just for laughter "team spirit". This will some kind as resilience was for PvP, but for raid content. Here you go, now you have "your" content separate. If you do everything right, you don't even need higher ilvl (same for PvP) But what is now not making this part separate, only allowing "cheating with progress" and even worse - delivering huge demand for RNG to the market. Yes, I know that this role was performed by tiers earlier ("progress" carrot, addition for harder PvE part of content, little class tuning for its specifics, the only problems were 1) not(completely unreasonable demands) to overdo with such bonus, 2) not to lose logic during disconnectability/moderation, therefore, based on both points, manipulation with characteristics is much more neat and simpler, bonuses directly affecting performance tend to create a catastrophic gap between modes/classes/players, in any case, a significant separation between "PvE and PvE" is not recommended = since it's worth observing progress' ranking within limits of similar content activity, so "fake elite as source of toxicity" will cluster in places of final more universal loot (thereby protecting/freeing up space for "ordinary people" ...and here it's just appropriate to point out once again that M+ in its current form was/is/will always stay a crappy design decision), but its actual usefulness won't significantly outplay casuals in ordinary content), but since they conflicted with new designers' stormy "revolutionary" spirit to change everything, so now they don't work, and they're absent in new content.

==========================================

Sabine Wren
I stated that I take part in it despite it not really giving me anything in terms of reward besides score, and you conclude the exact opposite of what I stated. I have no idea what you're trying to say actually.

I said that there are a lot of people who are "not you", which you don't want to take into account. But they exist, and they also play, and therefore are influenced by the game, and therefore they influence it too = they are happy to use developers "generosity".

Sabine Wren
Similarly the younger audience have grown up with these changes to games so that's what they have come to expect when trying out new games. If WoW hadn't adapted it would have sunk long ago.

All of this is partly true (links in 2nd paragraph from this message). And as for rewards - you read my messages and conclusions: if it ok for you, then I want you to know that this also will be very ok for game design. But while this isn't present ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dristereau]

Don't have a guild of quantity or quality to raid Mythic but there's about ten or so who are great. It keeps us active in game with something to do, and the rewards for Legion for it have been crazily good due to Titanforging. Whether the changes titanforging affect Mythic+ participation we will see, but people go where the loot is.

In general though dungeons are fun. I've had some great times since MoP with Challenge Modes then, those in WoD and Mythic+ in Legion.

[haxartus]

it seems like it's just a cheap and easy way to rehash content and not introduce new dungeons. It's not new content at all it's just doing the same thing over and over, same thing with world quests, it's the quests you already did through the story rehashed.

Exactly. It's just prolonging game time artificially.

The entire Legion was like that. There are maybe a month worth of WQ's. People did them every single day just for a chance of getting a legendary.

[Deleted]

What I said is a consequence of what you said, it's just logical conclusion of this and if you don't understand it... well, then, unfortunately, I can't help you. I don't know how to explain this easier.

I stated that I take part in it despite it not really giving me anything in terms of reward besides score, and you conclude the exact opposite of what I stated. I have no idea what you're trying to say actually.

And you think where people have such mentality from? Why are these people now are main audience of this game? This is just a consequence of changes and we have already talked about this many times <1><2>(3, 4), tl;dr

Developers are lazy, because it's faster and cheaper to do this content. But you still didn't answered my question. Will it still be just as fun and interesting for you to take part, but only for a "symbolic" award?

I thought that I had already answered your question. Yes I would run m+ even if it didn't reward any AP or loot what so ever. But considering that it is supposed to be an endgame rivalling raids, removing its reward would be more than a bit strange if it wasn't also removed from raids.

WoW has always sought to be casual friendly, on its release it was probably the most casual of all of the MMO's out there, even though it would be considered "hardcore" by today's standards. We've seen that designing around the hardcore doesn't work, Wildstar went that route and even used the "we have developers from vanilla wow" in almost every single video they released, it crashed and burned harder than the Star Wars MMO.

I can only guess, but my belief of the reason for why games have gone the route they have is that most people have grown older and simply don't have the patience or time to sink into games anymore. They have jobs, families and responsibilities, things they didn't have way back during Vanilla. They want to make sure that when they sit down to play, they actually get to do something worthwhile during that session. Vanilla was a huge time sink and everything took forever, some aspects of that were wonderful like Alterac Valley, others were not so great, such as trying to create a group for a dungeon and making your way through it without anyone leaving.

Similarly the younger audience have grown up with these changes to games so that's what they have come to expect when trying out new games. If WoW hadn't adapted it would have sunk long ago.

[Deleted]

Except we had more dungeons with M+ than ever before ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But he can't cry about it if he thinks about it, so best to just let him REEEEE.

We did dungeons a handful of time before we outgeared them and never go back, now they added m+ and people actually keep doing the dungeons, and it will make future dungeons way cooler because they have m+ in mind now.

And instead of just ignoring m+ if he doesn't care about it he needs to know why do people like something he doesn't because HOW could that be?!

[ReD-EyeD]

We did dungeons a handful of time before we outgeared them and never go back, now they added m+ and people actually keep doing the dungeons

Additionally, the very same dungeons on high keys feel A LOT different than "just dungeons". The higher the key the more "oh, I never knew about this boss ability" moments that you would never see in heroic run.

Ran most dungeons hundreds of times, but still never tried Triumvirate. Because fuck learning new stuff, I'm already overwhelmed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[frogbound]

Because it's fun.

[Yoshimiko]

Challenging, Fun, I can get with a few friends and bash out some M+s and the rewards are solid.

I like Mythic plus FAR more than I like Mythic raiding. At least Mythic plus is: Sit down, run a dungeon for 30 minutes, you're free to walk away. Mythic raiding, on the flip side, is almost a full time job.

[Amaterasu65]

I cannot hardcore raid anymore due to being busy, so m+ is a nice, simpler way to do PvE, get good loot and play heroic raids once in a while.

[Sentynel]

it seems like it's just a cheap and easy way to rehash content and not introduce new dungeons. It's not new content at all it's just doing the same thing over and over, same thing with world quests, it's the quests you already did through the story rehashed.

What? We had a new dungeon added in 7.1, 7.2 and 7.3. You are definitely trolling at this point.

[Deleted]

Honestly, I'd like them more without the bull-rushing aspect to it.

That just makes them too punishing for me to do with my friends, because a couple are great people without being great players - and one mistake simply encourages the behaviour of exclusion that's gutted raiding communities since the launch of Cataclysm.

As for the complaints about getting new dungeons, I think Legion has had the highest number of any expansion to date. That makes it very strange to complain about dungeon numbers, especially given that Mythic+ probably contributes to the development of them (given that they increase dungeon participation).

[ReD-EyeD]

That just makes them too punishing for me to do with my friends, because a couple are great people without being great players - and one mistake simply encourages the behaviour of exclusion that's gutted raiding communities since the launch of Cataclysm.

This has nothing to do with M+. You just described any multiplayer cooperation in general. If its too punishing for you and your friends you're free to do M+0 which will be the same as before.

[Jaewalk]

Why do people like Mythic +?

This is the 7th dumbest question I have ever seen.

[Easo]

I do not like them. They are just another form of dungeon grind. I hate grinding.
And... I really dislike the MORE DPS NEED TO GO FASTERRRRR mentality. They are zerg rush in my opinion. At higher levels with pretty cool tactics, but zerg rush anyways.

[HyperJay]

it seems like it's just a cheap and easy way to rehash content and not introduce new dungeons. It's not new content at all it's just doing the same thing over and over, same thing with world quests, it's the quests you already did through the story rehashed.

Because I enjoy the content in a dungeon when we have a time limit and it's quite hard and I can do it with some good friends and really push out limits of DPS and Survivability. Don't like it don't play it.

- - - Updated - - -

I do not like them. They are just another form of dungeon grind. I hate grinding.
And... I really dislike the MORE DPS NEED TO GO FASTERRRRR mentality. They are zerg rush in my opinion. At higher levels with pretty cool tactics, but zerg rush anyways.

This is the dumbest thing I've seen on the forums in a while. At least the other complainers hate WoW for semi ok reasons you are hating an MMORPG for the grind. I will say this again, don't like it don't play it. Also what do you mean Need More DPS mentality is bad? Bosses have health which needs to be depleted in a certain time if you don't meet the dps what are you expecting.

[Deleted]

Because dungeons are fun and it rewards you with something nice at the end of the week.

[Alyajna]

I used to raid pretty heavily and over the years it lost a lot of it's appeal. I do it very casually now. I find it hard to dedicate a preset time per week to raiding, and it's awful when I just don't want to log in that night, etc. With mythic+ there isn't that sort of pressure to attend, you can pretty much do it at any hour with anyone and not worry about it.

I probably would have taken an extended break in legion if mythic+ was not there, because I didn't start raiding until the last tier (and only because I wanted that bird). It's nice to have options.

It's nice that the content changes slightly each week, with affixes, so your strats aren't always static.

In all other expansions dungeons became obsolete after the first few months, which is just a waste. I think it's a much smarter system to keep things relevant. Now, I think they do have an issue adding new dungeons - they like to make the base difficulty WAY higher then older ones, which I sort of understand and sort of don't, but adding new dungeons shouldn't be a key killer either. You got seat, or early on cath, and your key was dead, it's just stupid and they need to work on that.

To me, smaller scale content also feels like you yourself are making more of an impact, which is nice.