Level Squish - Loss of Power

[Kaver]

Ion was asked about a potential level squish at the last Q&A. His answer was based on the complexity of the task but also the sensation the players would get of feeling less powerful or losing something, if they one day logged on and were level 70 again. He thinks it will be possibly much more severe than seeing lower damage numbers from the "standard" stat/dps/health squish. I think that arguement is valid but not true for many players. I can't imagine anyone I know who would feel less powerful if the level number was reduced.

What do you think? Personally I wouldn't feel less powerful if we were reduced to level 70. I think the level is a much less noticeable number compared to damage numbers so a wouldn't mind a squish at all.

Please note that this post is not addressing the complexity of a level squish task. I fully recognize the investment it would take from Blizzard to do so.

[MrLachyG]

I don't think they will do a level squish. it isn't necessary, not yet at least. maybe 30 expansions down the track they might

[Kaver]

I don't think they will do a level squish. it isn't necessary, not yet at least. maybe 30 expansions down the track they might

The arguement for a level squish from Blizzards side is also mostly based on the experience of new players.

[Emerald Archer]

I'd like to see a level squish, sure it'll feel weird getting used to being a lower level, but it won't take long for it to feel more natural. People adapt quickly, despite being allergic to change.

[Deleted]

I'd prefer no level squish. It just feels like going backwards to me. There's nothing exciting about leveling from 70 to 80 again - I already did that. Ofc it's something I could live with, but I just don't think it's worth it. It feels weird and will be even weirder for old players returning (like Ion mentions), who don't know about the level squish. The levels aren't so high numbers that it matters, it isn't breaking anything. Sure, it can look a little daunting when you pick up the game, but leveling speed can be adjusted much easier with reduction of XP per level or simply an heirloom like bonus to all characters. Sure, if we were pushing level 500 it would be getting a little silly, but we're not even close to 150 yet.

I guess I just don't see it as a problem and I don't think a level squish really offers enough benefits combared to the awkwardness it would bring.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

they have good reason to not do a level squish.

besides, it boils down to "i'm leveling" or "i'm max level".

so, looking at it through VargVision, there are only 2 levels.

[WowIsDead64]

Ion was asked about a potential level squish at the last Q&A. His answer was based on the complexity of the task but also the sensation the players would get of feeling less powerful or losing something, if they one day logged on and were level 70 again. He thinks it will be possibly much more severe than seeing lower damage numbers from the "standard" stat/dps/health squish. I think that arguement is valid but not true for many players. I can't imagine anyone I know who would feel less powerful if the level number was reduced.

What do you think? Personally I wouldn't feel less powerful if we were reduced to level 70. I think the level is a much less noticeable number compared to damage numbers so a wouldn't mind a squish at all.

Please note that this post is not addressing the complexity of a level squish task. I fully recognize the investment it would take from Blizzard to do so.

Big question - why should we remove content from game again? I personally like leveling, more leveling - better game for me and I don't want levels to be squished, cuz some players don't like to level. As some players on official forums have already mentioned - RPG IS ABOUT LEVELING. If leveling would be removed, scaling and 100500 difficulty levels will make gear and character progression irrelevant - game would turn into arcade. SMBO - Super Mario Bros Online. Blizzard would need to rename it to MMOArcade then.

My solution - make character boost free, so players, who don't want to level, will get to endgame instantly. If leveling is completely irrelevant, then why character boost still costs 60$? This option would leave leveling for players, who still enjoy it. Or just buff Hairlooms. Make them give +100% more XP or 300% more XP. Then players without Hairlooms would still be able to enjoy leveling and players, who don't - will be able to skip it.

[Ballistics1142]

make character boost free

I can see Blizzard rolling over in their graves! lol

But surely by making the boosts free, players would feel obliged to use it even if they'd prefer to level. As end game content is where it's at. The social pressure in haveing to "use a boost" would be too great.

[sam86]

the 'squish' is in reality because game core engine is old as f8ck, game itself wasn't able to handle all numbers during mop and anyone who got druid resto specially remember the massive nerf from heal every second to just block of heal every couple of seconds, and they flat out admitted because game engine couldn't process all that
first they need to be honest (something that probably is commercial suicide i know), they squish not because numbers are 'too big to read', u can always add k and m at end if that is the reason and let players read the small details, they squish because the game that was developed 14 years ago wasn't design with that future in mind, yeah i didn't play at launch but by now probably everyone know that blizz wasn't expecting at launch time at least even 50% of wow success back then
so tl dr: they will squish always, every few exp they will squish, and that won't end, because unless they delete everything and create the game again from scratch, the core game - in the end - will never handle big numbers and anytime we get near it the game will just stop working (unrelated to hardware power, for example silent hill downpoor still freeze even today because game engine)

[Austilias]

Well there's already a loss of power because my characters feel at least several times weaker, and they somehow managed to make levelling worse/slower than it already was. Literally no point doing dungeons anymore, for a start.

[Saphyron]

I would love a level squish. I hate levelling so anything that can reduce that task for my alts.

I don't give a fuck if I am suddenly lvl 40 again. Only thing I care about is my relative strength compared to what I'm fighting.

[Onvious]

problem with leveling, its not the numbers of level. it is about gaining nothing. In some classes you are getting almost 0 new spell like 20-30 level or more. if they managed to fix rewarding system in leveling then no need to do level squish

[Kaver]

Big question - why should we remove content from game again? I personally like leveling, more leveling - better game for me and I don't want levels to be squished, cuz some players don't like to level. As some players on official forums have already mentioned - RPG IS ABOUT LEVELING. If leveling would be removed, scaling and 100500 difficulty levels will make gear and character progression irrelevant - game would turn into arcade. SMBO - Super Mario Bros Online. Blizzard would need to rename it to MMOArcade then.

A level squish would not mean less leveling. It would only be about the number. It would still take the same amount of time getting from 0 to max and we would still go through the same content. Only numbers would be changed.

[ceall]

I can see one positive thing about a level squish:
The gaps to getting new spells and talents reduces artificially.
Even if leveling speed stays the same, it'd feel better to get new spells every other level and new talents every 5 levels instead of 15.

[taurenface]

Imo level squish is a must.
I can't imagine how it feels when you are a new player and you see those 120-130 numbers.
Moreover they mentioned one more problem - not every level unlocks something new for your character. So, leveling 100-105 might feels useless, for example.
With good level squish every level up will mean something, you will be happy with it.

Btw I love leveling and leveled up to 110 11+ characters

[RamGuy]

I for one love the levelling experience in World of Warcraft. The time I enjoy the most with new expansions is when I progress towards max level and do new quest-lines, dungeons and RAIDs for the very first time. I love following the story-line of the world and my character. The end-game grind I don't enjoy all that much, the gameplay of World of Warcraft feels somewhat stagnate and boring for 2018 so doing the endless grind for better gear is not all that motivating for me anymore.

But even as one who love levelling, quest-lines and story progression I have to admit that the game desperately needs some sort of level squish or re-work of the levelling experience... Who really enjoys levelling alts through the endless amount of content you have to go through in order to reach level 110? For new players it might be somewhat more intriguing but it still is a really long grind before reaching the point where everyone else is playing. And they don't even have access to heirlooms, large bags etc..

My wife has always wanted to try out the game with me, but she just not able to enjoy it past level 40-50 due to the older content being and feeling so outdated and boring and purchasing a boost for a game we are not even sure she is going to play and enjoy is rather expensive. The price for the base game, the latest expansion, game time + a boost adds up to a rather stark price of entrance. These days you get a free boost with the latest expansions which of course helps a bunch but she has already got putted off by the previous attempt and its hard to get people coming back after they have already started feeling bored with the game from past experience.


There is no denying the game is somewhat dated. The newest expansions improves on a bunch of things and the levelling experience in both WoD and Legion is so much better compared to the older expansions making it feel awkward to force new characters and players through older content.

The latest level-scaling in the older content did also come with some drawbacks in terms of making your character feel weaker and making everything feel slower which didn't really improve on the overall feeling of levelling up new characters even-though you can finally fully complete and enjoy storylines in various zones without outlevelling everything in the zone halfway through.


What needs to be done is to make the time required to reach the relevant content much faster. Drop at least half the levels or even more, with level-scaling in older content just drop the required amount of experience required to reach current content by at least 50% or even more so it no longer takes forever. Sure you will level at what might feel like stupid speeds but with the level-scaling it should be possible to make it so that players can still decide what zones they feel like doing without out-levelling the content so the only difference would be that instead of having to do like a total of 20 zones before reaching current content you only need to do a total of like 8 zones (these numbers are just made up to make an example).

Or perhaps make it possible upon creating a new character to decide if you want to start from level 1 (with some rewards like heritage armour-sets etc..) or starts from what is considered the latest acceptable expansion that doesn't feel too outdated which would change every time we get a new expansion. So with the release of BFA it could be so that new characters starts at WoD, and upon the release of the next expansion the start at Legion and just keep it rolling with every new expansion. Then new characters would still need to level rough a bunch of content, but at least the content wouldn't be overwhelming and feel that outdated.


The biggest problem with all of this would of course be that it will all result in reduced sales of character boosts which I suppose is a problem for Blizzard/Activision...

[Biomega]

A level squish is inevitable imo, but it's definitely a MONSTROUS task. Something for a Cata 2.0 expansion, perhaps, where the old world is revisited and zones are revamped. Leveling a Nightborne has showed me once again just how terrible some of the old quests are, even Cataclysm era ones (let alone TBC which is a steaming pile of hot garbage). Waiting 20 minutes for NPCs to reset, walking 5 minutes for a turn-in only to be told to walk back to where you came from, quest counts of 20 when 3 mobs are up at a time... you take your pick.

I think a zone revamp would naturally go hand in hand with a level squish, because you can redesign the entire progression flow during leveling and adapt it to new values. Leveling is an absolute nightmare right now, it's simply far too long - and part of that has to do with having to go through more than 100 levels. The periods where you simply have no character progression of any kind are a terrible feeling while leveling. You gain most of your arsenal fairly soon (and that's good), to then sit there for 30 levels until you unlock one random raid utility ability that you'll never use solo is just not a good concept at all. And all of this will only get worse as they add more and more levels, especially since they've gone back to adding 10 per expansion rather than 5.

"It's a big task" is not an excuse, though. We pay you money for the big tasks. But I guess the money they get from people paying to skip the terrible leveling is more attractive to them. Sigh.

[Kaver]

I for one love the levelling experience in World of Warcraft. The time I enjoy the most with new expansions is when I progress towards max level and do new quest-lines, dungeons and RAIDs for the very first time. I love following the story-line of the world and my character. The end-game grind I don't enjoy all that much, the gameplay of World of Warcraft feels somewhat stagnate and boring for 2018 so doing the endless grind for better gear is not all that motivating for me anymore.

But even as one who love levelling, quest-lines and story progression I have to admit that the game desperately needs some sort of level squish or re-work of the levelling experience... Who really enjoys levelling alts through the endless amount of content you have to go through in order to reach level 110? For new players it might be somewhat more intriguing but it still is a really long grind before reaching the point where everyone else is playing. And they don't even have access to heirlooms, large bags etc..

My wife has always wanted to try out the game with me, but she just not able to enjoy it past level 40-50 due to the older content being and feeling so outdated and boring and purchasing a boost for a game we are not even sure she is going to play and enjoy is rather expensive. The price for the base game, the latest expansion, game time + a boost adds up to a rather stark price of entrance. These days you get a free boost with the latest expansions which of course helps a bunch but she has already got putted off by the previous attempt and its hard to get people coming back after they have already started feeling bored with the game from past experience.


There is no denying the game is somewhat dated. The newest expansions improves on a bunch of things and the levelling experience in both WoD and Legion is so much better compared to the older expansions making it feel awkward to force new characters and players through older content.

The latest level-scaling in the older content did also come with some drawbacks in terms of making your character feel weaker and making everything feel slower which didn't really improve on the overall feeling of levelling up new characters even-though you can finally fully complete and enjoy storylines in various zones without outlevelling everything in the zone halfway through.


What needs to be done is to make the time required to reach the relevant content much faster. Drop at least half the levels or even more, with level-scaling in older content just drop the required amount of experience required to reach current content by at least 50% or even more so it no longer takes forever. Sure you will level at what might feel like stupid speeds but with the level-scaling it should be possible to make it so that players can still decide what zones they feel like doing without out-levelling the content so the only difference would be that instead of having to do like a total of 20 zones before reaching current content you only need to do a total of like 8 zones (these numbers are just made up to make an example).

Or perhaps make it possible upon creating a new character to decide if you want to start from level 1 (with some rewards like heritage armour-sets etc..) or starts from what is considered the latest acceptable expansion that doesn't feel too outdated which would change every time we get a new expansion. So with the release of BFA it could be so that new characters starts at WoD, and upon the release of the next expansion the start at Legion and just keep it rolling with every new expansion. Then new characters would still need to level rough a bunch of content, but at least the content wouldn't be overwhelming and feel that outdated.


The biggest problem with all of this would of course be that it will all result in reduced sales of character boosts which I suppose is a problem for Blizzard/Activision...

If a level squish happened it would only be about numbers. The leveling time to get to max level would still be the same and the grind would also still be the same.

[RamGuy]

That all depends on how they go by doing it. You can always combine a level-squish at the same time as you greatly reduce the experience required to reach current content. Only doing a level squish for the sake of the numbers not feeling as large would be a complete waste of time that wouldn't really achieve anything meaningful.

The easiest way would of course be to just make it so that new characters are able to start in more recent content and skipped the older content completely. This doesn't really require much from the developers and they could implement some unique rewards for players starting form level 1 so it would still make sense to do it for those interested.

A system like this would also translate into a system that will always be up-to-date as you would just move everything along with each expansion without it requiring anything. A level squish and a big reduction to the exp required to reach current content would still keep falling behind with every new expansion at make it increasingly worse for every new expansion.

Going back and re-working the old content to become greatly improved and more modern is a huge task wasting a lot of development resources for something most players won't ever experience. They would have to re-work a ton of zones and you will still run into the issue where a few years down the line the newer content will progress to even new and better levels making all this re-work of older content still feel dated compared to the newest expansions.

- - - Updated - - -

The character boost is pretty much a testament from Blizzard that the levelling process is just too long and outdated. The problem is that they would rather have you pay for the boost, instead of making a system that would fix it for free. There is a huge conflict of interests here.

[meroko]

The game we play today versus the game I played when I started has advanced so far. I cannot for the life of me see how a game is supposed to appeal to a new player base when you have to level 120 freaking levels, and it's not a fast track, it's actual leveling. The level squish is super important and I really hope they do it with the next expansion.