The classes feel really good since pre-patch!

[Kithelle]

So anyone with a different opinion to your is insane? i think that attitude is pretty insane, and quite childish.

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How can someone be 'wrong' about enjoying something?

Well didn't state it was a opinion so all I can assume that like many people on the net, they assume their opinion is fact.

[George Costanza]

Hi Jaylock

[arkanon]

Well didn't state it was a opinion so all I can assume that like many people on the net, they assume their opinion is fact.

how could it be a FACT that the classes FEEL good? Feeling is obviously a subjective thing. You just seem angry that someone has a different opinion to yours, and dares to make that opinion public.

[Zyky]

This is just try-hard elitist garbage from a try-hard elitist. There are classes that have had abilities removed, and some that have maintained the same complexity, and some that have added complexity for those who wish to pursue it.

There is not a single spec that maintained or had complexity added to them. The easiest specs got easier and the harder specs got easier too. The majority of specs right now are running 3 button rotations MAX, that's accommodating clickers and keyboard turners.

What is not clear, and what is REALLY important, is if the more complex iterations of a spec will reward the player with higher throughput. One of the biggest issues with dps classes in particular is when the very simple version of the spec performs almost as well as the most complex version of the spec - ie skill floor, and skill ceiling. BM hunter is the usual suspect here, with a skill floor and ceiling VERY close to each other, and overall, quite low when compared to other specs. This wouldn't be the end of the world if its performance was further down the pack, but at certain points throughout legion, this was far from the case.

It's very clear, if you look at the logs the specs are almost all running the talents for the highest output, the highest output for the majority of the specs are the talents that are almost all passive gains. This again, is fact.

Using a straw-man argument to belittle someones opinion isn't helping your argument, it just makes it look soft. But you are coming from a tough position - usually to produce a strong argument you would put forward some objective examples of specs that have had a drastic reduction in complexity. However in this case, that is almost impossible, as someone will just link various specs with added complexity, or even the same class with a different, more complex spec. The obvious comeback to that is "yeah but that spec does bad dps!!" which is again a fare argument, but not for the case you are trying to put forward. Instead, that comes down to an issue of tuning.

If you're looking for specifics take a half second to look at specs like Frost Mage, which takes all passive talents, except for one, for top dps over taking vital talents from Legion like Ebonbolt. This is the majority of specs.

My opinion is most specs should have an 'easy mode' to get people into the spec and starting to play it. As they grow and improve as a player (for some a few hours, others a few days, others might take weeks) they can add complexity to the spec, and directly be rewarded with an improvement in performance. This is not always the case, and THAT, in my opinion, is the issue - simple versions of specs performing too well, and complex iterations of the spec not being rewarded with appropriate increase in throughput.

The most complex spec ever put into the game has been between Demo Lock from the days of Demon Form and S2M Shadow Priest. When something is too complex Blizzard guts it because the casuals can't handle it and because decent guilds will not take you if you're not running the correct and optimal talents and playing them effectively(these are still facts btw). There will always be a right way to play and a wrong way to play if you're not using the best talents then you're playing the wrong way for M+ or Raiding.

PS - you might want to update your sig, since the player you are quoting was long ago banned for being a troll and trouble maker.

PS - you might want to spend more time researching why he's actually banned. Most of the time it's because his opinion doesn't line up with the opinions of threads he posts in and because the mods of this forum are most of the time a joke and just instantly ban people instead of actually looking at the reason.

[Kithelle]

how could it be a FACT that the classes FEEL good? Feeling is obviously a subjective thing. You just seem angry that someone has a different opinion to yours, and dares to make that opinion public.

There are many things that are on that net that are considered fact that aren't, seen people literally say that so and so was their opinion and later state it as fact, or are you new here?

[arkanon]

There is not a single spec that maintained or had complexity added to them. The easiest specs got easier and the harder specs got easier too. The majority of specs right now are running 3 button rotations MAX, that's accommodating clickers and keyboard turners.



It's very clear, if you look at the logs the specs are almost all running the talents for the highest output, the highest output for the majority of the specs are the talents that are almost all passive gains. This again, is fact.



If you're looking for specifics take a half second to look at specs like Frost Mage, which takes all passive talents, except for one, for top dps over taking vital talents from Legion like Ebonbolt. This is the majority of specs.



The most complex spec ever put into the game has been between Demo Lock from the days of Demon Form and S2M Shadow Priest. When something is too complex Blizzard guts it because the casuals can't handle it and because decent guilds will not take you if you're not running the correct and optimal talents and playing them effectively(these are still facts btw). There will always be a right way to play and a wrong way to play if you're not using the best talents then you're playing the wrong way for M+ or Raiding.



PS - you might want to spend more time researching why he's actually banned. Most of the time it's because his opinion doesn't line up with the opinions of threads he posts in and because the mods of this forum are most of the time a joke and just instantly ban people instead of actually looking at the reason.

You are not presenting FACTS. you are presenting subjective opinions and some personal experience. Saying any decent guild demands every player plays a certain spec and rotation is absolute GARBAGE. They demand numbers, and performance, and couldn't give a flying shit HOW you achieve those numbers. "well, we killed the boss, and we got the world first, and you performed at 98% and you are second on damage, but im sorry, we have to let you go because you are using the wrong level 100 talent, as per the guide on icy veins."

Just more and more opinions - Present some FACTS. Accept the challenge i laid down - list the specific specs you believe are running a 2-3 button rotation, which is a departure from their traditional complexity or difficulty. And while accepting that challenge, which im sure you will, try to remember the turning is for level 120, not 110, so almost every spec will change at 120.

[Deleted]

You are not presenting FACTS. you are presenting subjective opinions and some personal experience. Saying any decent guild demands every player plays a certain spec and rotation is absolute GARBAGE. They demand numbers, and performance, and couldn't give a flying shit HOW you achieve those numbers. "well, we killed the boss, and we got the world first, and you performed at 98% and you are second on damage, but im sorry, we have to let you go because you are using the wrong level 100 talent, as per the guide on icy veins."

Just more and more opinions - Present some FACTS. Accept the challenge i laid down - list the specific specs you believe are running a 2-3 button rotation, which is a departure from their traditional complexity or difficulty. And while accepting that challenge, which im sure you will, try to remember the turning is for level 120, not 110, so almost every spec will change at 120.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of the argument you two are having but I can say from experience on beta that at 120, all classes feel objectively worse than they do at 110. This is due to secondary stat scaling no longer being exponential and has nothing to do with 'start of expansion' stats being lower because they don't scale well even when you add raid gear on top of things.

[Beefkow]

So anyone with a different opinion to your is insane? i think that attitude is pretty insane, and quite childish.

What if I told you that I think that anyone who enjoys skydiving, eating mushrooms or basically anything I don't like.... is insane.

Your response tells me that you're triggered. Never did I say it was "incorrect" or "wrong" that someone enjoys playing shaman.

How can someone be 'wrong' about enjoying something?

Well, if you enjoy a system that is corrupted or a bunch of classes that have been completely watered down into nothingness then blizzard is going to be encouraged to follow exactly what you enjoy, leaving the other playerbase in the dust.

Quick question: How long have you been playing wow?
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They demand numbers, and performance, and couldn't give a flying shit HOW you achieve those numbers. "well, we killed the boss, and we got the world first, and you performed at 98% and you are second on damage, but im sorry, we have to let you go because you are using the wrong level 100 talent, as per the guide on icy veins."

Ooof, if that were actually true then I don't think anybody would even want to raid.

I honestly cannot play a class that feels completely horrible to play. Being overpowered, overtuned, or just strong just doesn't mean jack. If X class was FOTM, or in terms of #1 damage with X toolkits to perform something, I still wouldn't play that class.

On another note, tier bonuses are gone...... whats the point of raiding?

[Deleted]

you are mistaking 2 things . but its not your fault

people are mixing 2 things - how classes feel in 8.0 on live in prepatch at 110 level and how classes feel and play on 120 level on beta.

and boy oh boy it will be a huge change once your haste drops down

it will be a good change for many and awefull change for few. but overall it will make wow a much better game once weaker players have chance to catch up in speed to good players.

Errm sorry to ask, but where does it starts? I mean the catch up speed? I`m a slowpoke clicker (yes, shame on me) and keyboard turner which is more than enough for hc raiding and to scratch mythic as well (not competitive for world first ofc, but still viable with 2 working braincells...)
And for me, the slowpoke...the game feels sluggish right now....If somebody was hopeless until now...it would be hopeless after it as well....imho

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I love that someone can have a positive opinion about something and still be called a troll. The times we live in...

It's not the positive opinion, it's the lack of detail and going against prevailing opinion. It looks like it's just been made to try to get a reaction, rather than put forward a legitimate argument. I say that as someone who thinks that it's not that bad honestly, but I don't really believe that OP believes that.

[lanesia24]

I love that someone can have a positive opinion about something and still be called a troll. The times we live in...

It's basically if you don't agree with me you must be a troll. At least you know they have the mental capabilities of a rock by their comments.

[Dristereau]

I think I'm not quite as big a fan of Arms Warrior as I was before the patch but I don't mind it, and my experience with UH DK has been okay but not enough to make a full opinion yet. Legion Prot Warrior polarised by due to that horrific Shield fire artefact thing, so that being gone is fine by me.

Of some of the classes I've played, it's a bit strange. Talents have been shuffled so your can now have a crappier version of your old Artefact ability. Also some talents being jiggled means you now have to choose between two things you had before (Bloodtalons and Feral Frenzy (Ashmane's Frenzy)) which is pretty naff.

[chakley]

i dont have all the classes. But OP is correct about Ret and Fury. Ret may be the best its ever been. Now if I could just get a glyph for a different graphic for Blade of Justice.

[arkanon]

What if I told you that I think that anyone who enjoys skydiving, eating mushrooms or basically anything I don't like.... is insane.

Your response tells me that you're triggered. Never did I say it was "incorrect" or "wrong" that someone enjoys playing shaman.




Well, if you enjoy a system that is corrupted or a bunch of classes that have been completely watered down into nothingness then blizzard is going to be encouraged to follow exactly what you enjoy, leaving the other playerbase in the dust.

Quick question: How long have you been playing wow?
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Ooof, if that were actually true then I don't think anybody would even want to raid.

I honestly cannot play a class that feels completely horrible to play. Being overpowered, overtuned, or just strong just doesn't mean jack. If X class was FOTM, or in terms of #1 damage with X toolkits to perform something, I still wouldn't play that class.

On another note, tier bonuses are gone...... whats the point of raiding?

This is all just absolute jibberish. There is nothing logical or thought out in your post at all, its just random words thrown together. There is nothing in there to even respond to, its honestly just rubbish. If you have an actual response, and would like to engage in an actual conversation, im happy to do so, but at this point, you are not making any sense.

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I'm not going to comment on the rest of the argument you two are having but I can say from experience on beta that at 120, all classes feel objectively worse than they do at 110. This is due to secondary stat scaling no longer being exponential and has nothing to do with 'start of expansion' stats being lower because they don't scale well even when you add raid gear on top of things.

For gods sake, learn the difference between objective and subjective. Something cannot possibly FEEL objectively worse. A feeling is purely subjective. So no, you cannot objectively say a spec feels worse. You CAN say it is objectively SLOWER, or, objectively under performing, but you CANNOT say that something objectively feels worse.

[Beefkow]

There is nothing in there to even respond to, its honestly just rubbish..

I mean... you just quoted my statement and responded......

Yea, there is something to respond to.

Also, if you believe that what I say is jibberish, then that means you're denying the facts. But you choose to ignore the facts and just play wow regardless.

My condolences for wow, played by a bunch of players that still find classes to be "interesting" to play. You gotta be a brain-dead imbecile to understand how your class/spec plays!

[Leodok]

Eh, half the specs I play have actually improved. And the ones that got worse aren't MUCH worse.

[Polygons]

Every class feels so similar I don't care about class fantasy anymore I just want to know if I'm playing ranged or melee

[meroko]

It's OK, at 120 when you're unable to scrape together whatever secondary stats you need to function, the crutch legendaries have long since stopped working, and you get no new talents, no new abilities, and virtually nothing that affects how you played since level 100 (yes, 100, not 110)...that's when the fun REALLY begins!

is this your first expansion? Literally EVERY expansion starts off with low stat values, and core mechanics stripped. And nothing new at 120? You are getting azerite gear that actually offers SPEC specific changes and some actually really cool global changes for all specs. Uldir is the Emerald Dream/Highmaul/Mogushan of this expansion. Did you feel powerful in ANY of those raids? Cause you shouldn't have.

It's called P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S-I-O-N

If you started off with 50% everything to secondary stats where the fuck would you go from there? Literally every time a new expansion comes out, we get this bullshit from brain dead players like you.

It's an MMO, we progress in it. This is the reset phase.

[arkanon]

You gotta be a brain-dead imbecile to understand how your class/spec plays!

So you dont understand how the classes play? or you do?

[TOM_RUS]

We are playing different games then...