View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    120 19.29%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    94 15.11%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    151 24.28%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    166 26.69%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.63%
  1. #2741
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    That’s a lot of nice speculation and all but we already know from yoda that it doesn’t work that way you don’t just turn off the dark side like a switch. Luke pulls back from the dark side every time but can never be free of it.


    Silvio explains it better!

  2. #2742
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I can get on board with that. I think Rian's made some good movies as well. This one just felt like he had his own story he was trying to tell, but with the restrictions of using preformed characters and preset plot devices (like the force), so the blending of two (his story & existing SW lore) just ended up not working well.
    There's no denying that his particular style was really unsuited to Star Wars in the end. That said, sometimes directors who have little prior experience in a genre can create a pleasant surprise; most recently, Todd Philips managed to make a great, dark Joker movie despite having a background in comedies. I can understand wanting to take a gamble sometimes, but Star Wars is not the franchise to do so. It's as formulaic as entertainment gets, the main movies at least, and engaging in a deconstruction of the setting should be left to its own standalone flick, not smack dab in the middle of a trilogy, and not after a movie that tried its damnest to be a shot-for-shot replica of ANH to boot.

    The MCU could get away with it a bit more since, while the various films exist in the same canon, they are more loosely affiliated. That's how you can have modern spy thrillers, movies about reality-bending wizards, silly planet-hopping adventures and desperate endtimes scenarios involving omnicidal tyrants in the same universe and it works well. Star Wars movies directly follow one another but somehow feel like they have a less harmonious continuity in-between them than the 20+ Marvel movies (by the by, this is also a criticism I could very easily levy at the OT and the prequels). It's clear that the new series needed a strong hand at the helm to enforce its themes, tone and general direction, and that is not what happened.

    I still think a lot of the shit flung at the new series is ridiculous, however. The main character being too competent is classic Star Wars-ism. The science making no sense whatsoever is par for the course. The dialog being mediocre at best is in direct continuation with what Lucas wrote (and at least it's not episodes 1 and 2). The silly nonsense aimed at kids has been there since day 1. The technology being stupidly impractical was a given the moment we had dogfights and explosions in space around a moon-sized station that can obliterate planets. There's more than enough to criticize here without pretending that Star Wars was far more high-brow entertainment that it actually was.

  3. #2743
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    To some people cats are called gata/gato. To other people they are called macka or pisica. So if you say, "what is that animal called", it depends on who you ask. Just like personal canon. What I accept for canon, whether it be religious, or otherwise, may not be what you consider canon, and is likely not what any agreed authority considers canon. I still recognize there is an official canon, so I stay in the bounds of that when discussing matters, but it doesn't mean I don't have my own personal canon that may differ.
    Et puis on dit chien et chat en français... We're having a discussion in English, not Spanish or Tagalog! You're being disingenuous here.

    And again: a canon is official by definition! You can have personal set of tastes or beliefs, that does not make them a "canon". It does not make sense.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  4. #2744
    Honestly Luke's brief moment of weakness doesn't bother me.

    Because it was just that. He didn't go through with it, he didn't bring that blade down on Kylo. He had a momentary reaction that he was immediately ashamed of. I have problems with TLJ, and I think it's odd that this one failure lead to Luke becoming a hermit and apparently giving up on Kylo being redeemed when he didn't give up on Vader, but the scene itself here doesn't bother me one bit.

  5. #2745
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because the term is talking about popular acceptance. Not personal opinion.

    You're insisting that canon is personal opinion and nothing more, which means "canon" has no meaning as a term, it's just whatever anyone wants it to be.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, he's free to not like Star Wars canon.

    What I was contesting was the idea that his dislike for some parts of Star Wars makes those parts non-canon. They are. He just doesn't like them.

    I hate Jar Jar Binks. He's a racist trope, serves no useful purpose, and attempts to insert humor in all the worst possible ways. He still canonically exists, in Star Wars, and I'd be ridiculous to claim otherwise.
    You do realize the term Headcanon exists right? The fact that it does proves that the definition of cannon for "appproved" lore doesn't require popular acceptance as you claimed. Big hero 6 characters exists in a comic and movie form and yet both are cannon. There is the film cannon and the comic cannon. Before the Disney takeover did was Fox's Xmen not actual cannon? They only owned the rights as long as they kept making films. Had they lost the rights does the cannon for the Fox Xmen film universe just disappear? Official lore, official cannon, etc are the proper terms for "real lore".


    And thats pretty fucked up to say Jar Jar is a racist trope just because he was voiced by a black guy. Jar Jar was based on Goofy. If Goofy had any racal undertones that doesn't mean Jar Jar did.

    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia View Post
    In response to the speculations, actor Ahmed Best tweeted, "I will say this, it feels really good when the hidden meaning behind the work is seen. No matter how long it takes," apparently confirming the theory.[40] Some months later, he expanded upon his tweet in a YouTube interview, stating, "there is a lot about it that is true, there are some things about it that are not true... Could Jar Jar have evolved into that? I think the answer is yes. Because of the backlash, and rightfully so, Lucasfilm backed off of Jar Jar a lot, but a lot of the influence that I put into the character mirrored a lot of what was already in the Star Wars universe." Best concluded only George Lucas could unveil the actual role of Binks, yet he also revealed that a deleted scene from Attack of the Clones would have still shown Palpatine darkly confiding his plans about the Empire to Jar Jar.

  6. #2746
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    There's no denying that his particular style was really unsuited to Star Wars in the end. That said, sometimes directors who have little prior experience in a genre can create a pleasant surprise; most recently, Todd Philips managed to make a great, dark Joker movie despite having a background in comedies. I can understand wanting to take a gamble sometimes, but Star Wars is not the franchise to do so. It's as formulaic as entertainment gets, the main movies at least, and engaging in a deconstruction of the setting should be left to its own standalone flick, not smack dab in the middle of a trilogy, and not after a movie that tried its damnest to be a shot-for-shot replica of ANH to boot.

    The MCU could get away with it a bit more since, while the various films exist in the same canon, they are more loosely affiliated. That's how you can have modern spy thrillers, movies about reality-bending wizards, silly planet-hopping adventures and desperate endtimes scenarios involving omnicidal tyrants in the same universe and it works well. Star Wars movies directly follow one another but somehow feel like they have a less harmonious continuity in-between them than the 20+ Marvel movies (by the by, this is also a criticism I could very easily levy at the OT and the prequels). It's clear that the new series needed a strong hand at the helm to enforce its themes, tone and general direction, and that is not what happened.
    The MCU has that strong hand at the helm, which is what I think is one of the big differences here. Rian said in one interview that he felt he had as much creative autonomy as with any other movie he's made. Noting the only restriction was the genre. That told me that Kennedy has no hands on the helm and was taking a nap in the captain's quarters, while each director independently was just told to grab the helm and take the ship wherever they wanted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    And thats pretty fucked up to say Jar Jar is a racist trope just because he was voiced by a black guy. Jar Jar was based on Goofy. If Goofy had any racial undertones that doesn't mean Jar Jar did.
    I figured Jar Jar was a blend of Goofy (a dog'ish thing) and the Olsen Twins (from Full House). I also wasn't aware of racial undertones. But alas, our disdain for Jar Jar is one place Endus and I can find common ground.
    (one of the reasons I removed Ep 1 from my headcanon)

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  7. #2747
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    Honestly Luke's brief moment of weakness doesn't bother me.

    Because it was just that. He didn't go through with it, he didn't bring that blade down on Kylo. He had a momentary reaction that he was immediately ashamed of. I have problems with TLJ, and I think it's odd that this one failure lead to Luke becoming a hermit and apparently giving up on Kylo being redeemed when he didn't give up on Vader, but the scene itself here doesn't bother me one bit.
    I think it has a lot to do with the new Canon context of Luke’s joinery. Though out the comics that take place during the OT. Luke finds a ton of different force uses/styles but rejects all of them as he sees the Jedi way as superior as his dad was a Jedi and obiwan was a Jedi. Hell at one point he even meets an old republic Jedi who shows him old republic Jedi ways but also some dark stuff and he rejects him as he thinks the Jedi are purer then that. He pretty much takes the moral high ground every time though out his journey only to find out that the high ground was a lie and that even when he try’s to do it him self the Jedi just make things worse.

    He’s kinda like the opposite of anakin instead of being tricked into thinking the Jedi were evil he comes to the self realization that they were flawed like any one else and by trying to bend the galaxy to there sense of good they always end up leading it to more and more evil.

    A lot of this is speculation on my part though.

  8. #2748
    Jar Jar and his whole race speaks jive, and are dumb as hell, and easily susceptible to tricks like the Jedi mind trick.

    Of course it's a racist trope.


    Just like the Trade Federation dudes are racist tropes of Asian people.

  9. #2749
    Watching the trailer I see finn's character progression has gone from love interest for main character which was dropped to guy that yells with reaction shots to the action. Such a damn pointless character. Even the droids have more personality
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  10. #2750
    Wait. Jar Jar's a racial caricature? I thought he was a goofy cartoon character for kids.

    Someone @ me when we sort this out.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  11. #2751
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Jar Jar and his whole race speaks jive, and are dumb as hell, and easily susceptible to tricks like the Jedi mind trick.

    Of course it's a racist trope.


    Just like the Trade Federation dudes are racist tropes of Asian people.
    I never seen anyone or any group act like Jar Jar. So I think it may say more about you if you see Jar Jar and see "group x".

    So, just a few Jar Jar quotes:

    "Oh, mooie-mooie! I love you!"
    "I spake."
    "No, no, mesa stay. Mesa culled Jar Jar Binks"

    I'm not sure where you grew up, but I'm pretty sure this isn't "jive".


    There were obviously doing Asian based accents for the Trade Federation dudes. I know I've seen a lot of Fantasy where they do British accents, like Game of Thrones for example. I'm not sure how that makes it a trope though or how it makes it racist?
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2019-12-06 at 09:19 PM.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  12. #2752
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    There were obviously doing Asian based accents for the Trade Federation dudes. I know I've seen a lot of Fantasy where they do British accents, like Game of Thrones for example. I'm not sure how that makes it a trope though or how it makes it racist?
    In Star Wars, Imperials tend to have British accents. Don't even need to jump to a different franchise.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  13. #2753
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    In Star Wars, Imperials tend to have British accents. Don't even need to jump to a different franchise.
    Yeah, I was just thinking that. As early as the very first movie, the Imperial troops seemed to be fashioned after WWI/WWII era German soldiers and they all had British accents. So I guess we we're all supposed to be offended, I'm just not sure what about.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  14. #2754
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Jar Jar and his whole race speaks jive, and are dumb as hell, and easily susceptible to tricks like the Jedi mind trick.

    Of course it's a racist trope.


    Just like the Trade Federation dudes are racist tropes of Asian people.
    Thats you projecting onto it:
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia View Post
    Best said he put a lot of himself into the character.
    Lucas said he wanted a character based on Goofy and more like Buster Keaton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks

    Also who the fuck from the Caribbean speaks like that?

    When a black actor puts his own spin on a character and then you view it as racist I hate to tell you but that makes you a racist.

  15. #2755
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Thats you projecting onto it:


    Lucas said he wanted a character based on Goofy and more like Buster Keaton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks

    Also who the fuck from the Caribbean speaks like that?

    When a black actor puts his own spin on a character and then you view it as racist I hate to tell you but that makes you a racist.
    I wish we could upvote posts here...

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  16. #2756
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Canon as a term is utterly useless as it is. I don't care what someone or something tries to dictate to me as "this is the REAL truth of a thing you like!" Nah. I'll do what I do with religion and cherry pick my favorite parts while ignoring the other parts. I don't particularly care about canon at all. Only thing I do care about is if I like it.

    In regards to the movie itself, since my head-canon starwars universe is still my favorite fantasy universe, I'll still go see it, but I couldn't be any less hyped. I assume it's going to suck, if for no other reason than the last jedi being the worst starwars thing to happen in recent history (rogue one > all, solo was mediocre, the force awakens was fine). The flip flopping between all the setup force awakens did and then the last jedi... and now probably attempting to salvage and return to whatever the force awakens was setting up again (thanks for changing creative visions 3 times in 3 movies disney) has just left me totally uncaring about what happens. While I may love the universe of star wars, I just don't give a shit about this particular little story they're telling any more.
    Yeah, I don't grasp the importance to some people. Its only value is in telling you what a particular writer may have been factoring into their process when they were creating content. If I go back and read Heir to the Empire I'm not cut up about the fact that it didn't happen in the official Star Wars timeline any more than I'm cut up about the fact that it didn't happen in the actual timeline. It's freaking fiction. What is "canon" will hold up as long as the license holders decide to, and will truly only matter if you find yourself in a position to have to write something official for Star Wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    "Official canon" is a pleonasm. Of course a canon is "official!" That's part of the very definition of what a canon is! Personal canon does not exist. Everytime he will watch a movie or read a novel that refers to a character or an event in Ep. 8, his "personal canon" will be challenged. That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

    As Endus said, he may hate it, but cannot say that it did not happen in the storyline.
    It didn't happen at all. If someone wants to ignore it... so what? Let's suppose someone wants to watch the old films and then imagine that the batshit stuff which happened in Legends was the actual continuation of the story; there is no problem with this. They aren't required to acknowledge the new films just because Disney holds the license and says so. Imagination is not regulated by copyright.

  17. #2757
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post

    Just like the Trade Federation dudes are racist tropes of Asian people.

    It's even worse considering the neimoideans get accents in different languages matching people which whom the audiances people had quarrel in the past. They speak with a french accent in the german version, and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    Apparently, you need to watch the final fight of RotJ again, because Luke went full Red Queen on his dad twice in that fight. A hair's breadth from falling to the Dark Side completely and replacing his father at the Emperor's side. None of this is subtext; the Emperor calls this stuff out openly, in dialogue, during that fight. It's blatant and clear.

    And that's over and above the hints of Luke's dark leanings in ESB, with Yoda.



    You can't use this complaint if you don't also condemn the OT's Emperor.

    Who we had no idea where he came from. Who went out like a little bitch after completely dominating Luke. Worse, we didn't even know his name; he was just The Emperor.

    We canonically know more about Snoke after two movies than we knew about the Emperor in the entire OT.



    I mean, they explicitly state this.

    1> They wanted to test their hyperspace tracker with an actual target trying to evade them. Gotta let the target run if you're gonna test your chasing tools.
    2> Sadism. They wanted them to be afraid. They thought catching them was a foregone conclusion, so they weren't in any rush. Overconfidence has been a "thing" for both the Empire and First Order.



    Except for the stealth systems that would've hidden the transports. Which he told them about. The only reason they could "watch the transports leave". Again, watch the damned movie.



    Not having important parents doesn't mean she doesn't have a destiny.

    Also, there's no reason whatsoever to think Kylo Ren was telling the truth about that. He's got no way to know who her parents are. At best, he's tapping into her insecurities through their mental block (since she doesn't know) and using that to manipulate her into joining him.
    The Red Queen is for the most part sadistic and takes many lives. Luke has a moment of weakness, but recovers. And again, being angry doesn't mean you fall to the dark side. Surrendering to your anger does. Luke strikes in anger, but doesn't kill or maim, unless we count mechanical hands. Jedi kill. I always found it baffling how fast some of them actually struck down enemies, but that's a different story.

    And no, the Emperor and Snoke are not the same, and yes, I can make said complaint. I feel as if I've laid that out to you before, haven't I?

    The Emperor was introduced briefly in the middle of Episode 5, the second movie of the franchise. So far, he was only mentioned by name, and there is the fact that an Empire usually has an Emperor. We knew, however, that he was at the top of an oppressive system with people in charge that blow up an entirely unarmed planet with hundreds of millions, just to send a message. We know that his Empire is ruthless. We also know, or rather are introduced to, the fact that he is the one who is Darth Vaders master. And while the Emperor himself isn't explored further, he, and the Empire he built, are fully fleshed out by the time we get to see the guy for the first time in person on the second death star. We have been with the Star Wars story for a whole of 2 - 4 years in-universe, and all we have been given to explore are 3 movies.

    Snoke, on the other hand, is introduced to us 60 years after the story started. Both his First Order as well as his pupil Kylo Ren/Ben Solo are almost as new to us, the audience, as Snoke himself is. We don't know who the First Order is, other than the fact that they are a kind of successor to the Empire, and we don't know much about Kylo Ren, other than the fact that he worships Darth Vader and struggles with the Light and Dark side. It begs the question where an incredibly strong Force User like Snoke came from and what he did in the past.

    So no, we didn't know more about Snoke than we did about the Emperor. This is why world building matters. You're a strong proponent of show, don't tell, iirc? The Emperor is a great example of showing and not telling. They show us what he built and what he commands. He's at the head of all of it. And when he gets to demonstrate his power, oh boy, does he not disappoint. They try to do the same thing with Snoke, but only spend... 20 minutes on propping him up before they show him to us.

    As for the tracking, the one thing I remember the FO stating over and over is how they want to destroy the Resistance. I don't remember them wanting to play with their toys. It's a lazy line to explain why they aren't simply jumping ahead of them if it was said, but again, I don't recall it. If you could provide a timestamp for reference, that would be great. As for sadism, I don't recall sadism as a trait either Kylo, nor Snoke, nor the FO personnel displayed. If anything they are brutal and rash, but they always went for the kill shot, which resulted in the Resistance not being destroyed right in the beginning in D'Quar Orbit. But they are willing to shoot up Niima (?) outpost with airstrikes to destroy BB-8, they obliterate Maz's castle, they just out-right destroy the Hosnian system, not once do I see them employing sadistic tactics. If anything they are even less subtle in their tactics than the Empire. Something like that would have suited Palpatine, the First Order on the other hand, not so much. Is there a comic or novel that explores their sadistic side?

    And I also seem to remember telling you the transports weren't cloaked. They had no optical cloaking device, just a scrambler to mask their signatures. They were visible to the naked eye from the bridge of the Supremacy. Watch the damned movie. I even posted screenshots of the scenes in question the last time we had this argument.

    I agree that Kylo Ren has no idea how to know this, but I wasn't talking about the narrative point, but how it is presented in the movie. So, allow me to specify?

    The Force Awakens goes to huge lengths to make a big deal about who Rey is. We have two key characters asking 'What Girl/Who's the girl?', the... flashback...? When she touches Anakin Skywalkers lightsaber, and a general sense of mystery about who she might be, with outside info sprinkled in, to stoke the flames, like JJ Abrams directing Daisy to keep her english accent, or her using the Emperors favorite Light saber technique (aggressive thrust forward) at least twice.

    The Last Jedi builds up on that. It picks this thread up and promises a resolution. And the resolution is... disappointing. I'm perfectly fine with her being 'nobody', so to speak. Not everyone has to be a Skywalker. I have an issue with this 'subverting expectations' bullshit, though, especially if it feels as if they were dishonest. It's like teasing an amazing meal and then being presented with McDonalds. One might like McD, but it probably won't live up to what everyone was expecting. Making the heritage a core issue and then saying 'you're nobody!' is just... sad.

  18. #2758
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Just like the Trade Federation dudes are racist tropes of Asian people.
    Might just be me, but WTF are you talking about…
    Are you part of the snowflake generation that see racisme and agendas behind everything?

  19. #2759
    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Might just be me, but WTF are you talking about…
    Are you part of the snowflake generation that see racisme and agendas behind everything?
    No they kind of are. The actual Neimoidians (Nute Gunray et al.) running the trade Federation are, down to the voice, mannerisms, and personality, pretty much mid-1940's american racist caricatures of Japanese people. They're devious, greedy cowards, but also kind of stupid.

    Most "racist caricatures" in Star Wars are people generally projecting (see the guy a couple pages back who thought Jar-Jar was a racist caricature of black people just because the VA/mocap actor was black), but Trade Federation Neimoidians being racist caricatures is pretty transparent, at least for anyone familiar with old wartime propaganda.
    Do not ask questions for which you do not want the answers.

  20. #2760
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    And no, the Emperor and Snoke are not the same, and yes, I can make said complaint. I feel as if I've laid that out to you before, haven't I?

    The Emperor was introduced briefly in the middle of Episode 5, the second movie of the franchise. So far, he was only mentioned by name, and there is the fact that an Empire usually has an Emperor. We knew, however, that he was at the top of an oppressive system with people in charge that blow up an entirely unarmed planet with hundreds of millions, just to send a message. We know that his Empire is ruthless. We also know, or rather are introduced to, the fact that he is the one who is Darth Vaders master. And while the Emperor himself isn't explored further, he, and the Empire he built, are fully fleshed out by the time we get to see the guy for the first time in person on the second death star. We have been with the Star Wars story for a whole of 2 - 4 years in-universe, and all we have been given to explore are 3 movies.

    Snoke, on the other hand, is introduced to us 60 years after the story started. Both his First Order as well as his pupil Kylo Ren/Ben Solo are almost as new to us, the audience, as Snoke himself is. We don't know who the First Order is, other than the fact that they are a kind of successor to the Empire, and we don't know much about Kylo Ren, other than the fact that he worships Darth Vader and struggles with the Light and Dark side. It begs the question where an incredibly strong Force User like Snoke came from and what he did in the past.

    So no, we didn't know more about Snoke than we did about the Emperor. This is why world building matters. You're a strong proponent of show, don't tell, iirc? The Emperor is a great example of showing and not telling. They show us what he built and what he commands. He's at the head of all of it. And when he gets to demonstrate his power, oh boy, does he not disappoint. They try to do the same thing with Snoke, but only spend... 20 minutes on propping him up before they show him to us.
    I'll freely admit that they botched the world-building when it comes to the First Order. Who are they? Where did they come from? How did they get this military tech? Why aren't they considered a threat by the New Republic? Who are the Knights of Ren? We can make some guesses, from context (and there may be more info in novelizations/comics I haven't seen), but a lot of these don't have satisfying answers in the films, just a passing nod and then moving on. It's not as big a deal for the extant government; that's had ages to develop. The new guys, pushing against it? That needs some description.

    Snoke's heading up the First Order, but his mysteriousness isn't really the problem. We don't need to know the details on how he seized the reins; he's crazy strong in the Force, we can assume that had something to do with it. Whether he's a trained Sith, or something else, doesn't really inform anything that happened in TFA or TLJ. It's not important to the arc, in the same way Sidious' rise to power wasn't important for the OT (but was for the prequels, which is where uncovering that makes narrative sense, something I won't bitch about them including).

    The bigger questions revolve around the First Order itself. They introduced ideas that went nowhere and wasted time doing so that could have been spent answering important questions. We know the First Order is "bad". Because they're like the Empire. But it's almost entirely translation from those prior films; they're not really strongly established as villains in their own right.

    Snoke, though, we totally get that, in his few appearances. We just also get told that Snoke seized control; he's not the originator of the First Order or why it exists. So there's unanswered questions.

    Again; I don't think the TLJ is a great film. I rank it above TPM and AotC, but it comes in 3rd from last for me. I know it has a lot of issues. I just don't agree with a lot of what people claim to be issues.

    As for the tracking, the one thing I remember the FO stating over and over is how they want to destroy the Resistance. I don't remember them wanting to play with their toys.
    "They can't get away, Supreme Leader. We have them tied on the end of a string." - Hux

    You should probably watch the film again, since you missed stuff. Somewhere around 12:30.

    And I also seem to remember telling you the transports weren't cloaked. They had no optical cloaking device, just a scrambler to mask their signatures. They were visible to the naked eye from the bridge of the Supremacy. Watch the damned movie. I even posted screenshots of the scenes in question the last time we had this argument.
    They explicitly describe the ships as cloaked. Claiming they magically weren't because it's not convenient to your argument is unreasonable.

    When they're taking off, you hear a pilot say "Cloaking device activated. We should be off their scopes." Around 1:37:00
    Later, a FO officer says "Sir, we checked on the information from the thief. We ran a de-cloaking scan, and sure enough, thirty Resistance transports have just launched from the cruiser." Around 1:41:00

    You're wrong about this, and the movie explicitly states why. You refusing to acknowledge the facts as laid out in the film does not an argument make.

    The Last Jedi builds up on that. It picks this thread up and promises a resolution. And the resolution is... disappointing. I'm perfectly fine with her being 'nobody', so to speak.
    Seriously, this is a ridiculous point, for one that keeps coming up.

    Kylo Ren has no way of knowing anything about Rey's parents that Rey doesn't herself know. He's made no investigation into her history that we've ever been given any indication of. Any knowledge he has comes from Rey, via their link.

    He was manipulating her, hoping he could use her loneliness to get her to join him. That's it. He doesn't have any idea who her parents are or are not.

    Bad guys lie about things. This is not a shocking concept, and yet, the whole idea that Rey's parents really are nobodies rests entirely on one offhand comment by a bad man who's explicitly trying to emotionally manipulate her in that moment. That's it.

    They do not resolve her origin in any way, in TLJ. At all.

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