View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    121 19.42%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    94 15.09%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    151 24.24%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    166 26.65%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.61%
  1. #2761
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Yeah, I don't grasp the importance to some people. Its only value is in telling you what a particular writer may have been factoring into their process when they were creating content. If I go back and read Heir to the Empire I'm not cut up about the fact that it didn't happen in the official Star Wars timeline any more than I'm cut up about the fact that it didn't happen in the actual timeline. It's freaking fiction. What is "canon" will hold up as long as the license holders decide to, and will truly only matter if you find yourself in a position to have to write something official for Star Wars.



    It didn't happen at all. If someone wants to ignore it... so what? Let's suppose someone wants to watch the old films and then imagine that the batshit stuff which happened in Legends was the actual continuation of the story; there is no problem with this. They aren't required to acknowledge the new films just because Disney holds the license and says so. Imagination is not regulated by copyright.
    I understand that. But you can't call that a "canon", because that's not what the word means. It's not about preferences. The etymology of "canon" is the Greek "κανών", meaning "rule" or "measuring stick."

    Take the Bible. There has been hundreds of books written about Christ or attributed to different prophets of the Old Testaments. One day, the Church has decided to put some order in these often contradictory writings and to make a list of only a few of them to create the Bible. To do so, they have set a "canon", a rule: for the Old Testaments, only the books from the Septuagint would be used (protestants chose otherwise later on). For the New Testament, only the books written during the apostolic times and by the Apostles or their disciples would be retained. The Church declared that only these books can be considered inspired by God, serve as source for further theological developments and be read in church. Everything else did not "measure up" and was classified among the apocrypha.

    That's exactly what Disney did. They have set a rule stating that only the movies (Ep. 1 to 6 at the time) and the TV shows Clone Wars and Rebels would be used to create further material, and that that new material (movies, books, TV shows, etc.) would become source material themselves to form a coherent storyline or fictional world. The rest is "Legends". An improvement, because before that, it was only the movies. Canon is not much about the "true" storyline (like you said neither really happened anyway) but about what existing material will be used to write other stories (and now I realize that is basically what you said to BeepBoo).

    Now, people have the right to not like the new stories from Disney. They can ignore it completely if they want to and keep reading the old EU stuff again and again. Nobody forces anyone to pay the movie ticket. But if they are still interested in some material created under Disney, it will be hard to dismiss the sequels, because the writers won't.

    I love the KotOR universe. The fact that is not a part of the canon does not prevent me from enjoying it. Does that mean it is part of my "personal" canon then? No! That would be silly and fruitless. I won't pretend that the events of KotOR or SW:TOR played, play or will play any role in the events of the official storyline. In KotOR, blue lightsaber means "guardian" and green lightsaber means "consular." I won't pretend that Luke started off as a guardian but became a consular in RotJ, or that "things changed in the meantime".
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  2. #2762
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I understand that. But you can't call that a "canon", because that's not what the word means. It's not about preferences. The etymology of "canon" is the Greek "κανών", meaning "rule" or "measuring stick."

    Take the Bible. There has been hundreds of books written about Christ or attributed to different prophets of the Old Testaments. One day, the Church has decided to put some order in these often contradictory writings and to make a list of only a few of them to create the Bible. To do so, they have set a "canon", a rule: for the Old Testaments, only the books from the Septuagint would be used (protestants chose otherwise later on). For the New Testament, only the books written during the apostolic times and by the Apostles or their disciples would be retained. The Church declared that only these books can be considered inspired by God, serve as source for further theological developments and be read in church. Everything else did not "measure up" and was classified among the apocrypha.

    That's exactly what Disney did. They have set a rule stating that only the movies (Ep. 1 to 6 at the time) and the TV shows Clone Wars and Rebels would be used to create further material, and that that new material (movies, books, TV shows, etc.) would become source material themselves to form a coherent storyline or fictional world. The rest is "Legends". An improvement, because before that, it was only the movies. Canon is not much about the "true" storyline (like you said neither really happened anyway) but about what existing material will be used to write other stories (and now I realize that is basically what you said to BeepBoo).
    This is exactly what I already described to debunk your exclusive use of the word "canon". Different churches have different books they consider canon. Who is the authority? Both churches will say they are. Who are "they"? The people in that church. Who are those books canon to? The people in that church who have decided certain books are canon.

    At any time I can form my own church and declare different books as the "religious canon". As a matter of fact, I can do that without forming a church.

    That's the point. "Canon" is a general term. It has next to no meaning until you declare what the subject is and to whom it is being applied. Canon: "accepted group or body of related works". You have to define who is accepting it, and what it is they are accepting. What is the Official Canon of Star Wars? That changes as is defined by the owner of the IP. So when Lucas sold the IP, Disney increased the scope of what is the Official Star Wars Canon. What I personally consider canon or to say, my personally accepted group or body or related works, may or may not be related to or based on the Official Canon. That's why one's called personal and the other is called official.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  3. #2763
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    This is exactly what I already described to debunk your exclusive use of the word "canon". Different churches have different books they consider canon. Who is the authority? Both churches will say they are. Who are "they"? The people in that church. Who are those books canon to? The people in that church who have decided certain books are canon.

    At any time I can form my own church and declare different books as the "religious canon". As a matter of fact, I can do that without forming a church.

    That's the point. "Canon" is a general term. It has next to no meaning until you declare what the subject is and to whom it is being applied. Canon: "accepted group or body of related works". You have to define who is accepting it, and what it is they are accepting. What is the Official Canon of Star Wars? That changes as is defined by the owner of the IP. So when Lucas sold the IP, Disney increased the scope of what is the Official Star Wars Canon. What I personally consider canon or to say, my personally accepted group or body or related works, may or may not be related to or based on the Official Canon. That's why one's called personal and the other is called official.
    So like Jewish instead of Catholic?
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  4. #2764
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I understand that. But you can't call that a "canon", because that's not what the word means. It's not about preferences. The etymology of "canon" is the Greek "κανών", meaning "rule" or "measuring stick."

    Take the Bible. There has been hundreds of books written about Christ or attributed to different prophets of the Old Testaments. One day, the Church has decided to put some order in these often contradictory writings and to make a list of only a few of them to create the Bible. To do so, they have set a "canon", a rule: for the Old Testaments, only the books from the Septuagint would be used (protestants chose otherwise later on). For the New Testament, only the books written during the apostolic times and by the Apostles or their disciples would be retained. The Church declared that only these books can be considered inspired by God, serve as source for further theological developments and be read in church. Everything else did not "measure up" and was classified among the apocrypha.

    That's exactly what Disney did. They have set a rule stating that only the movies (Ep. 1 to 6 at the time) and the TV shows Clone Wars and Rebels would be used to create further material, and that that new material (movies, books, TV shows, etc.) would become source material themselves to form a coherent storyline or fictional world. The rest is "Legends". An improvement, because before that, it was only the movies. Canon is not much about the "true" storyline (like you said neither really happened anyway) but about what existing material will be used to write other stories (and now I realize that is basically what you said to BeepBoo).

    Now, people have the right to not like the new stories from Disney. They can ignore it completely if they want to and keep reading the old EU stuff again and again. Nobody forces anyone to pay the movie ticket. But if they are still interested in some material created under Disney, it will be hard to dismiss the sequels, because the writers won't.

    I love the KotOR universe. The fact that is not a part of the canon does not prevent me from enjoying it. Does that mean it is part of my "personal" canon then? No! That would be silly and fruitless. I won't pretend that the events of KotOR or SW:TOR played, play or will play any role in the events of the official storyline. In KotOR, blue lightsaber means "guardian" and green lightsaber means "consular." I won't pretend that Luke started off as a guardian but became a consular in RotJ, or that "things changed in the meantime".
    Sure you can call it that, the history of a word is not so relevant as its present day usage, and presently terms like headcanon exist. (Initially wrote headcannon, a much more interesting subject frankly).

    Also, Luke was always a consular, it was his dad's Lightsaber initially, not at all reflective of his class. Duuuuuhhhhhh. (Hope it's clear that's teasing).

  5. #2765
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The main character being too competent is classic Star Wars-ism.
    But it's really not, Luke was horrible at nearly everything in ANH. He needed to be rescued every step of the way. Even the one thing he was "good" at he ended up not actually being very good at. In ESB he has become a decent military leader 3 years after ANH. But he still needs to be rescued by others and his overconfidence in his abilities almost gets him killed. It isn't until RotJ, the final movie of the trilogy that Luke comes off as any sort of badass.

    Anakin is OP from the get go but that is tempered by the fact that he is emotionally unstable and falls to the darkside.

    Rey is just good at everything right off the bat and just gets better as the films go on. With no significant shortcomings.

  6. #2766
    Elemental Lord HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Force power levels have nothing to do with training Rey can have the same raw strength as kylo but not the mastery of it.
    Except, you're not even supposed to have that much Force power to begin with. Training or not.

    Remember, Anakin was stated to be the "Chosen One", and yet he couldn't fully unleash his Force Powers until at least Attack of the Clones/The Clone Wars.

  7. #2767
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Except, you're not even supposed to have that much Force power to begin with. Training or not.
    Says who?
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Remember, Anakin was stated to be the "Chosen One", and yet he couldn't fully unleash his Force Powers until at least Attack of the Clones/The Clone Wars.
    That's Jedi training for you. It suppresses your raw power because of the Dark Side. Had Papa Palpatine got his hands on Anakin right after Phantom Menace...

    Anakin was building a droid on his own, he built his own pod-racer, and he was good at pod-racing, he took down the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo - by doing absolutely nothing. If that's not the Raw Force Power, I don't know what is in Star Wars.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2019 - that's two-zero-one-nine, as in the 21st Century - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  8. #2768
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Anakin was building a droid on his own, he built his own pod-racer, and he was good at pod-racing, he took down the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo - by doing absolutely nothing. If that's not the Raw Force Power, I don't know what is in Star Wars.
    Building a droid and a pod racer is just a bored ass kid with a passion on a desert and too much time on his hands. The force doesn't make you technologically inclined. Has nothing to do with brain cells.

    Blockade on naboo? He literally stumbled into the cockpit of a ship that was on autopilot and fucking bumbled his way around until he accidentally hit a button that just happened to be blasters at the right time. Pure utterly dumb luck.

    Raw force power? Nah. He was special and lucky, but he wasn't shown actually manipulating the force himself. That's the biggest thing a jedi can do. The force typically controls you and connects all things. Only a select few can actively manipulate it, which takes YEARS of training, even for the previous bests of them. Rey, OTOH, just gets to do everything without hardly any training at all. Yeah, no. Utter bullshit, unless she's eons ahead of every other force user that has ever existed ever. In which case, I'm still not interested in her as a character. Either way, I hate it and it's bad writing to me. Don't care what the reason is.

  9. #2769
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Building a droid and a pod racer is just a bored ass kid with a passion on a desert and too much time on his hands. The force doesn't make you technologically inclined. Has nothing to do with brain cells.

    Blockade on naboo? He literally stumbled into the cockpit of a ship that was on autopilot and fucking bumbled his way around until he accidentally hit a button that just happened to be blasters at the right time. Pure utterly dumb luck.

    Raw force power? Nah. He was special and lucky, but he wasn't shown actually manipulating the force himself. That's the biggest thing a jedi can do. The force typically controls you and connects all things. Only a select few can actively manipulate it, which takes YEARS of training, even for the previous bests of them. Rey, OTOH, just gets to do everything without hardly any training at all. Yeah, no. Utter bullshit, unless she's eons ahead of every other force user that has ever existed ever. In which case, I'm still not interested in her as a character. Either way, I hate it and it's bad writing to me. Don't care what the reason is.
    So you know nothing about Star Wars. Got it.

  10. #2770
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Sure you can call it that, the history of a word is not so relevant as its present day usage, and presently terms like headcanon exist. (Initially wrote headcannon, a much more interesting subject frankly).
    And used generaly as a derogatory term.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  11. #2771
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Except, you're not even supposed to have that much Force power to begin with. Training or not.

    Remember, Anakin was stated to be the "Chosen One", and yet he couldn't fully unleash his Force Powers until at least Attack of the Clones/The Clone Wars.
    There is no set levels force users are suppose to have it Varys from person to person.

    Rey also looks to be about the same age as anakin in attack of the clones and her and kylo are stronger then he was. I don’t see any reason anakin couldn’t lift rocks in attack of the clones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Raw force power? Nah. He was special and lucky, but he wasn't shown actually manipulating the force himself. That's the biggest thing a jedi can do. The force typically controls you and connects all things. Only a select few can actively manipulate it, which takes YEARS of training, even for the previous bests of them. Rey, OTOH, just gets to do everything without hardly any training at all. Yeah, no. Utter bullshit, unless she's eons ahead of every other force user that has ever existed ever. In which case, I'm still not interested in her as a character. Either way, I hate it and it's bad writing to me. Don't care what the reason is.
    Manipulating the force doesn’t take years of training in either the old or new canon, Mabye for some fancier things but force lifting and force pulling are basic things untrained force users can do easily.

    The only thing that rey does which is kinda bull is the mind trick, force lifting/pulling aren’t out of the realm of even children with no training.

  12. #2772
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    So you know nothing about Star Wars. Got it.
    Your point is that disliking the nonsensical Rey character has anything to do with not being versed in nerd knowledge? So if you know all the lore she becomes good?

  13. #2773
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    This is exactly what I already described to debunk your exclusive use of the word "canon". Different churches have different books they consider canon. Who is the authority? Both churches will say they are. Who are "they"? The people in that church. Who are those books canon to? The people in that church who have decided certain books are canon.
    You have debunked absolutely nothing. Of course, each Church will have a different canon, a different rule to decide what books belong in the Bible or not. But if you are catholic, you can't decide which books you accept or refuse. Neither if you are protestant or orthodox.

    At any time I can form my own church and declare different books as the "religious canon". As a matter of fact, I can do that without forming a church.
    Well, of course if you create your own religion, you will be the authority and you will get to decide what your followers should believe. Same if you create your own movie franchise, you will decide which books, games, comics, etc. are official or not.

    That's the point. "Canon" is a general term. It has next to no meaning until you declare what the subject is and to whom it is being applied. Canon: "accepted group or body of related works". You have to define who is accepting it, and what it is they are accepting. What is the Official Canon of Star Wars? That changes as is defined by the owner of the IP. So when Lucas sold the IP, Disney increased the scope of what is the Official Star Wars Canon. What I personally consider canon or to say, my personally accepted group or body or related works, may or may not be related to or based on the Official Canon. That's why one's called personal and the other is called official.
    Quote Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster
    [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard]
    a : an authoritative[ list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
    b : the authentic works of a writer. the Chaucer canon
    c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works. The canon of great literature
    You left that bolded part out. I wonder why... Definition of "to sanction":

    Quote Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster
    1 : to make valid or binding usually by a formal procedure (such as ratification)
    2 : to give effective or authoritative approval or consent to
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  14. #2774
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Your point is that disliking the nonsensical Rey character has anything to do with not being versed in nerd knowledge? So if you know all the lore she becomes good?
    Disliking a character is fine. Coming to forums and complaining about how nonsensical the character is - not fine, if you are not versed in SW lore. Like that's just your personal opinion, man. Keep it personal. Unless you can back it up with some nerd lore powers.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2019 - that's two-zero-one-nine, as in the 21st Century - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  15. #2775
    Quote Originally Posted by Malaky View Post
    If Rey has flaws the movie did a shit job at portraying them, because she comes off as near perfect at everything to the viewers.
    Mary Sue Rey because on fights even enemies drop weapons before they could kill him


  16. #2776
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Anakin was building a droid on his own, he built his own pod-racer, and he was good at pod-racing, he took down the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo - by doing absolutely nothing. If that's not the Raw Force Power, I don't know what is in Star Wars.
    I just call that bad writing.
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  17. #2777
    Since this thread topic is more constroversial than previous ones [Endgame, Infinity War, Captain Marvel, Spiderman, etc]
    To critique this movie, I will be asking of you all of how you want the poll to be

    A: Two poll option: EX. I liked/enjoyed the Rise of Skywalker Ex. I did not like/enjoy the Rise of Skywalker

    or

    B: An 11 poll option with a scale of 0 to 10 with zero being the worst and 10 being the best along with respective percentages beside them. Ex. 6 = 60%

    or

    C: Simple words like: Skip it, Rent it, See it, Must See, etc..
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  18. #2778
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Your point is that disliking the nonsensical Rey character has anything to do with not being versed in nerd knowledge? So if you know all the lore she becomes good?
    No, my point is that the post I quoted was full of ignorance about Star Wars. To name one example, the idea that almost anything about Anakin's storyline was "pure dumb luck." Here's one more, the idea that using the force requires years of training. Even the very first film contradicts this.

  19. #2779
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    No, my point is that the post I quoted was full of ignorance about Star Wars. To name one example, the idea that almost anything about Anakin's storyline was "pure dumb luck." Here's one more, the idea that using the force requires years of training. Even the very first film contradicts this.
    Using the force can be done, completely untrained, by a child. Using the force WELL, in a deterministic manner, requires some amount of training.

    She's doing things that other jedi have been shown to need training to accomplish. Even Anakin(THE CHOSEN ONE!) got smoked by Dooku in their first duel, despite Anakin being trained for years in lightsaber combat. Rey, on the other hand, just gets to beat Kylo in a similar duel because she remembers the force even exists. Granted, Kylo is not on the same level of duelist as Dooku, but he's still been training since childhood. Whereas Rey only picked up a lightsaber for the first time a week(?) before.

    And it's important here that Luke said that both Kylo and Rey have similar strength in the force. If that's equal, then the training should make the difference. YEARS of training.

    And I think that's where most of the complaints about Rey come from. She's doing a LOT of things(force related or otherwise) that would normally require a lot of training. Only she has no references in the actual story for how she's doing them without it. Some can be handwaved away with "she's strong in the force". But others don't have any real explanation.

  20. #2780
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    You left that bolded part out. I wonder why... Definition of "to sanction":
    I left the word "sanctioned" out for the same reason I left all the other definitions out. They didn't fit the usage.

    You may notice there's an 'or' there. That means either is applicable.

    Canon: "a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works."

    This equals:
    A sanctioned group or body of related works.
    OR (wait for it)
    An accepted group or body of related works.

    That's what the word OR does for you. It means you don't need both, you can use either and the statement is still true. Logic 101. And because we aren't saying our head canon is "sanctioned" I wouldn't use that definition. That would be ridiculous. I'm saying everyone's head canon is accepted. If by no one else, by the person who's head it is in.

    You act like "or sanctioned" in there changes this, when it doesn't. So you wondered why I left it out. Now you know. I was hoping to not have to go over basic grammar and how words work, but alas, you forced my hand and here an am doing it anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    Since this thread topic is more constroversial than previous ones [Endgame, Infinity War, Captain Marvel, Spiderman, etc]
    To critique this movie, I will be asking of you all of how you want the poll to be

    A: Two poll option: EX. I liked/enjoyed the Rise of Skywalker Ex. I did not like/enjoy the Rise of Skywalker

    or

    B: An 11 poll option with a scale of 0 to 10 with zero being the worst and 10 being the best along with respective percentages beside them. Ex. 6 = 60%

    or

    C: Simple words like: Skip it, Rent it, See it, Must See, etc..
    Probably B. 0-10 or even a 1-5. I like C, but often when pollsters use phrases they often uses phrases not applicable to many users, leaving no completely true answers, so those make me nervous.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

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