View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    121 19.30%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    95 15.15%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    153 24.40%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    167 26.63%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.51%
  1. #3501
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Had a thought the other day. If Palpatine caused Shmi's pregnancy with Anakin, wouldn't Palpatine be Anakin's father? If that is the case, then Luke and Leia are Palpatine's Grandchildren. That makes Kylo Palpatine's Great Grandson.

    On the same note, if Rey is Palpatine's clone or offspring in someway, that makes Rey, Kylo's Grandaunt. And if they kiss in this movie....then that is kinda gross.
    A long time ago in a galaxy not far away at all - fucking your family was the norm. That's how we humans came to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i was talking about horse cock again, told him to look at your sig.

  2. #3502
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And?

    That doesn't change anything. All that "Chosen One" stuff Lucas made up for the prequels was the same kind of nonsense, for Anakin that time.

    Also, the prophecy never even said Anakin would be the strongest ever. Just that he'd bring balance to the Force. Which he did, by breaking the grip of the Jedi, and chucking the Emperor down a shaft.
    How does one weak with The Force, or at least extremely exceptional even in the eyes of his peers, bring balance to it by overthrowing the Jedi without being special in some way? While it's true that Anakin's power was never discussed in the original trilogy, it's because Luke was the protagonist, and Vader the villain. Lucas hadn't fully fleshed out Anakin's backstory, obviously, but given he was the one that hunted down and destroyed all of the Jedi as Obi-Wan tells us in A New Hope, it was a safe bet that Vader/Anakin was a force to be reckoned with. While treachery doesn't require power in most cases, to do what Anakin did does require great power.

    Anakin was only unusually strong in the prequels, and only because Lucas decided to make him extra special powerful. It wasn't in the OT at all.
    The original trilogy hardly had room to flesh out Anakin's entire backstory. It was Luke's tale, not Vader/Anakin's. Shoe horning it in even through exposition would have bogged down the narrative; OT was about a son redeeming his father's soul. Prequel trilogy was about telling the story of how Lucifer fell.

    In the old EU, this was shown to be false. If we exclude it, we have no way to judge, to begin with, since Luke's strength in the Force is never really even discussed.
    I have no knowledge of the EU so I'm really out of my element discussing anything to it. My knowledge extends to the movies and a bit of The Clone Wars show on Cartoon Network.

    I wouldn't say strength in the Force is a character trait at all. It's like saying how much you can bench press is a character trait. It was never what made Vader terrifying, or what made Anakin's fall from grace interesting. It isn't what Kylo's arc is based upon in any way whatsoever.
    It shouldn't be, but strength can be a character's defining trait if the character is 2-dimensional, that's the whole point. What else is there to Kylo other than his strength? Anakin's power wasn't his defining trait, because Lucas did at least somewhat flesh him out half-decently despite the cheese ball romance. Anakin was incredibly insecure, feared loss, became very emotionally attached due to having been raised by his mother alone, his whole world, and could not even fathom having to cope with loss. He was emotionally weak, but still had some redeeming qualities until his fall. However, what made him dangerous, vulnerable to Sidious' influence, and thereby also attractive to Sidious, was his great strength. Even if say Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Yoda were much stronger than a 20 year old Anakin, and they likely were, they were not at all attractive to Sidious because they weren't weak of mind. Anakin was INCREDIBLY powerful for his age and experience level, someone Sidious could easily sway, mold, and manipulate. That makes Anakin's strength one of his defining traits. It's part of what made the character tick and partly led to his fall. If he was some average ass jabronie Jedi, Sidious wouldn't have been interested in him, and Anakin wouldn't have been arrogant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    This is pure fan fic. Luke was absolutely stronger then Vader in the original canon he becomes the equivalent of a force god who can destroy whole ships and control black holes where Vader was beaten by a nobody like Starkiller.

    The new Disney canon is a bit murkier but Luke is in the same general area of Strength if not stronger.
    Luke was stronger than a cyborg, old, past his prime, emotionally broken Vader. Yeah, no kidding, but Luke in Episode 6 against Anakin in Episode 3? I'd say Anakin would beat him.

    I have no idea what you're talking about black holes, I didn't read any of the books and Disney deemed them all non-canon the moment they bought out Lucas.
    Last edited by Kyphael; 2019-12-17 at 04:12 PM.

  3. #3503
    It's not looking good - it's a shame because TFA was so promising - but I guess after the TLJ we should've known this trilogy was doomed. Disney should do the decent thing - declare the last 3 films non-canon, and take a break from star wars for a few years until they have writers, actors and directors who actually give a shit

  4. #3504
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Luke was stronger than a cyborg, old, past his prime, emotionally broken Vader. Yeah, no kidding, but Luke in Episode 6 against Anakin in Episode 3? I'd say Anakin would beat him.

    I have no idea what you're talking about black holes, I didn't read any of the books and Disney deemed them all non-canon the moment they bought out Lucas.
    Vader only got more powerful and more skilled post episode 3 as well as learning a metric ton more about the force luke would absolutely decimate episode 3 anakin who even the weaker obiwan beat.

  5. #3505
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    It's not looking good - it's a shame because TFA was so promising - but I guess after the TLJ we should've known this trilogy was doomed. Disney should do the decent thing - declare the last 3 films non-canon, and take a break from star wars for a few years until they have writers, actors and directors who actually give a shit
    To be honest, I'm still surprised people thought The Force Awakens was a sign of great things to come. It was pure nostalgia and introduced nothing interesting or any new concepts. They pretty much just revived The Empire out of nowhere with Vader-lite and checked all the boxes that Star Wars fans wanted checked.

    Han and Chewie in Millennium Falcon? Check.
    New Darth Vader that's not burnt? Check.
    New female Luke Skywalker? Check.
    A New Hope plot recycled? Check.

  6. #3506
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    How does one weak with The Force, or at least extremely exceptional even in the eyes of his peers, bring balance to it by overthrowing the Jedi without being special in some way?
    I don't recall Anakin's strength ever being the determining factor in what he did. It was a side effect, not a requirement.

    While it's true that Anakin's power was never discussed in the original trilogy, it's because Luke was the protagonist, and Vader the villain. Lucas hadn't fully fleshed out Anakin's backstory, obviously, but given he was the one that hunted down and destroyed all of the Jedi as Obi-Wan tells us in A New Hope, it was a safe bet that Vader/Anakin was a force to be reckoned with. While treachery doesn't require power in most cases, to do what Anakin did does require great power.
    Let's be clear; in A New Hope, Lucas knew basically nothing about Vader other than "scary dude with scary powers and a cool suit". The prequels makes Obi-wan talking to Luke about his father in ANH retroactively ridiculous. "Here's your dad's lightsaber. He, like, killed a lot of children with it."

    While we knew Vader had to be "strong" in the OT, we didn't know "strongest there will ever be". That's never stated in the canon. You're making it up.

    I have no knowledge of the EU so I'm really out of my element discussing anything to it. My knowledge extends to the movies and a bit of The Clone Wars show on Cartoon Network.
    That still gives you no grounds to claim Luke is weaker in the Force than his father.

    That's never established in the films or current canon, ever. I brought up to old EU because it was established, there, that Luke was the stronger of the two. You can pick between "dunno" or "Luke was stronger than Anakin". "Anakin was stronger than Luke" is a position that has no basis in Star Wars, whether canon or non-canon.

    It shouldn't be, but strength can be a character's defining trait if the character is 2-dimensional, that's the whole point. What else is there to Kylo other than his strength?
    His desire to live up to his grandfather's legacy.
    His uncertainty about that path.
    His need for control, and his inability to maintain it.
    His need for companionship, after breaking all ties to his family.
    His petulance and insecurity.

    I could probably go on but I think I've made my point.

  7. #3507
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Vader only got more powerful and more skilled post episode 3 as well as learning a metric ton more about the force luke would absolutely decimate episode 3 anakin who even the weaker obiwan beat.
    He became more powerful with the force but he was obviously nowhere near the duelist he was in his prime, even Lucas acknowledged this when he was making Episode 1. "This is the golden age of the Jedi, and you'll see that in the duels. This isn't an old man and a cyborg swinging light sabers around." Vader was powerful in the force even after he got maimed, but we never see him use it the way Sidious does, he still very much fought like a Jedi.

  8. #3508
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    Olalalala. There is something wrong when the hand selected and paid shills.... khm... i mean journalists turn against you after the premier.



    (he is the Forbes's film critic)
    It really is amazing that they managed to make a mess that someone like Mendelson is trashing it. I cant wait to see the backlash once the review embargo is over.

  9. #3509
    Why do people hate TLJ? It's the only SW film that actually has soul and wasn't a generic disney flick.

    The only bad areas are the casino sections and the questionable decision to keep Finn alive.

  10. #3510
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    He became more powerful with the force but he was obviously nowhere near the duelist he was in his prime, even Lucas acknowledged this when he was making Episode 1. "This is the golden age of the Jedi, and you'll see that in the duels. This isn't an old man and a cyborg swinging light sabers around." Vader was powerful in the force even after he got maimed, but we never see him use it the way Sidious does, he still very much fought like a Jedi.
    Vader skilled up in every way post episode 3 and stopped limiting him self to the Jedi ways.

    Here’s just one battle where he takes apart hundreds with out taking a scratch post episode 4 this included ships and tanks.



    http://www.comicbookcritic.net/wp-co...Preview_31.jpg
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...7w0VDjvNENEary

    This is all canon and there are many more fights which eclipse every thing pre episode 3.

  11. #3511
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I don't recall Anakin's strength ever being the determining factor in what he did. It was a side effect, not a requirement.
    Side effect or contributing factor? Palpatine wouldn't shut up about Anakin's power and potential.

    Let's be clear; in A New Hope, Lucas knew basically nothing about Vader other than "scary dude with scary powers and a cool suit". The prequels makes Obi-wan talking to Luke about his father in ANH retroactively ridiculous. "Here's your dad's lightsaber. He, like, killed a lot of children with it."
    I know he came up with the story movie by movie with just a very vague outline in mind. I get what you mean, but Vader's full backstory not being fleshed out in ANH doesn't mean he wasn't special.

    While we knew Vader had to be "strong" in the OT, we didn't know "strongest there will ever be". That's never stated in the canon. You're making it up.
    I'm not making it up per say as much as drawing a conclusion that couldn't have been supported until Revenge of the Sith. Palpatine alluded to Yoda Vader would become more powerful than both of them, a point Yoda did not outright refute.

    That still gives you no grounds to claim Luke is weaker in the Force than his father.
    The basis of my entire argument surrounds around the prophecy; Anakin is the chosen one. Luke is just his son, but their experiences does also lend precedent to the theory. By their respective prime ages, Anakin was a much more seasoned, and experienced duelist than Luke. Anakin fought Dooku, as a teenager, he fought in The Clone Wars, had his own Padawan, and trained with some of the greatest Jedi in the golden age of the Jedi. Luke saw little action before the Luke we saw in RoTJ. In a duel between the two in their prime, I'd be crazy not to bet on Anakin.

    That's never established in the films or current canon, ever. I brought up to old EU because it was established, there, that Luke was the stronger of the two. You can pick between "dunno" or "Luke was stronger than Anakin". "Anakin was stronger than Luke" is a position that has no basis in Star Wars, whether canon or non-canon.
    While I respect the EU, it's no longer canon, so "Luke was stronger than Anakin" is like it was never written. Disney owns the IP and they wished that away. I won't argue in bad faith though so I'd concede Luke in his prime was definitely stronger than Vader in old age, but Anakin in his prime, with all his power, in a stable mind like when he killed Dooku, that Anakin I would say was stronger than Luke.

    His desire to live up to his grandfather's legacy.
    His uncertainty about that path.
    His need for control, and his inability to maintain it.
    His need for companionship, after breaking all ties to his family.
    His petulance and insecurity.

    I could probably go on but I think I've made my point.
    Wanting to live up to Vader's legacy is kind of an oxymoron, and a red flag for Luke. "Wait, hold on... I love my father and all, but his legacy was hunting down and killing the Jedi and subjugating the universe." Ben's story has been told through exposition, there should probably be a movie about it because we only have quotes from Luke to go by and like, one flash back scene. I didn't really see his need for companionship in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, Rise of Skywalker spoilers notwithstanding.

    Ben/Kylo is very similar to Episodes II and III Anakin, but with the caveat he's even stronger than "the chosen one." That's my beef. It's a promotion tactic more than good storytelling, and I'm sticking to it just because Luke's power never had to be touted in the OT for people to sympathize with his character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Vader skilled up in every way post episode 3 and stopped limiting him self to the Jedi ways.

    Here’s just one battle where he takes apart hundreds with out taking a scratch post episode 4 this included ships and tanks.



    http://www.comicbookcritic.net/wp-co...Preview_31.jpg
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...7w0VDjvNENEary

    This is all canon and there are many more fights which eclipse every thing pre episode 3.
    You're just helping me prove Vader's strength over Luke now. =P

  12. #3512
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    To be honest, I'm still surprised people thought The Force Awakens was a sign of great things to come. It was pure nostalgia and introduced nothing interesting or any new concepts. They pretty much just revived The Empire out of nowhere with Vader-lite and checked all the boxes that Star Wars fans wanted checked.

    Han and Chewie in Millennium Falcon? Check.
    New Darth Vader that's not burnt? Check.
    New female Luke Skywalker? Check.
    A New Hope plot recycled? Check.
    Indeed..and also in a very ..shall we say lazy or unsatisfying way? Where you come out of the cinema and feel it was an okay film..but then you think about it and it's like...nah...it really was shite.

    30 years are passed and everyone in the Galaxy forgot about the time when the Empire and two Death Stars were destroyed by Jedi? The Force and Luke Skywalker became a myth while still people are actively searching for Luke? How does this stuff about there being a Resistance even make sense after the Empire was beaten and the Rebellion basically now taking control? Where did the First Order came from?

    As for Rey being a female Luke Skywalker? Wow..that is an insult really. Luke went through the classic hero's journey. He failed and needed to grow. Rey was just able to do everything and as far as I am concerned never ever failed....to the point where Leia hugs her instead of Chewie after Han was dead. Oh yeah..Han who totally failed as a parent and Luke who would go so far as to try and redeem his father...a murdering monster...but he would kill his nephew in his sleep over a vision.

    Horseshit....the only redeeming thing is the FX, the cinematography and editing - so as far as I am concerned TFA and TLJ are up there with any of the shite Transformer movies that made billions on a shit plot, on shit characters and on visuals alone.

  13. #3513
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    To be honest, I'm still surprised people thought The Force Awakens was a sign of great things to come. It was pure nostalgia and introduced nothing interesting or any new concepts. They pretty much just revived The Empire out of nowhere with Vader-lite and checked all the boxes that Star Wars fans wanted checked.

    Han and Chewie in Millennium Falcon? Check.
    New Darth Vader that's not burnt? Check.
    New female Luke Skywalker? Check.
    A New Hope plot recycled? Check.
    TFA had promise. There is a lot of cry baby nonsense around Rey, but generally Kylo Ren was an interesting character, Rey was set up pretty decently, Finn/Rey/Poe all had pretty great onscreen chemistry, and then there were secondary plots and characters such as Snoke, Finn being a Trooper, Captain Phasma, etc... there was a lot there to be happy about.

    Really this falls on Rian Johnson, he took what should have been a glorious base, and subverted out expectations by taking all of that good work out of the series. Snoke was a joke, Phasma died a bums death with no other screen time, no one cared Finn was a trooper, they jammed Rose into the Buddy cop dynamic of the previous 3 and it all fell flat, etc...

    TFA may have been a bit to much on the nose, nostalgia wise, but there was a lot of new in there that may had been overshadowed by the recycled story, I was excitedly awaiting for the next movie to bring these stories into the light, but it didn't work out that way.

  14. #3514
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Indeed..and also in a very ..shall we say lazy or unsatisfying way? Where you come out of the cinema and feel it was an okay film..but then you think about it and it's like...nah...it really was shite.

    30 years are passed and everyone in the Galaxy forgot about the time when the Empire and two Death Stars were destroyed by Jedi? The Force and Luke Skywalker became a myth while still people are actively searching for Luke? How does this stuff about there being a Resistance even make sense after the Empire was beaten and the Rebellion basically now taking control? Where did the First Order came from?

    As for Rey being a female Luke Skywalker? Wow..that is an insult really. Luke went through the classic hero's journey. He failed and needed to grow. Rey was just able to do everything and as far as I am concerned never ever failed....to the point where Leia hugs her instead of Chewie after Han was dead. Oh yeah..Han who totally failed as a parent and Luke who would go so far as to try and redeem his father...a murdering monster...but he would kill his nephew in his sleep over a vision.

    Horseshit....the only redeeming thing is the FX, the cinematography and editing - so as far as I am concerned TFA and TLJ are up there with any of the shite Transformer movies that made billions on a shit plot, on shit characters and on visuals alone.
    Well I just meant in Disney's eyes, Rey was the new Luke. Doesn't mean it was convincing to the fan base, which it obviously wasn't. I shouldn't be surprised, J.J Abbrams is kind of a carny director. He's no revolutionary, but he's good at his craft in giving the audience what it wants, but it's nothing everlasting or groundbreaking. His movies are tack ons, as much in Star Wars as Star Trek. He's the kind of director that will come up with an alternate timeline with alternate Captain Kirk instead of Captain Picard. Likewise, he'll come up with a new Darth Vader and rehash The Empire rather than come up with something fresh and new while also honoring the past.

  15. #3515
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    You're just helping me prove Vader's strength over Luke now. =P
    This shows that Vader is beyond his skill and power of episode 3 it does not show Him being above Luke In any way as you know Luke’s not in any of this.

    As far as Luke’s canon feats pre episode 5 he shakes a whole stardestroyer with a force push and we know he beats Vader in 6 though we don’t have extended material past 5.

  16. #3516
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    TFA had promise. There is a lot of cry baby nonsense around Rey, but generally Kylo Ren was an interesting character, Rey was set up pretty decently, Finn/Rey/Poe all had pretty great onscreen chemistry, and then there were secondary plots and characters such as Snoke, Finn being a Trooper, Captain Phasma, etc... there was a lot there to be happy about.

    Really this falls on Rian Johnson, he took what should have been a glorious base, and subverted out expectations by taking all of that good work out of the series. Snoke was a joke, Phasma died a bums death with no other screen time, no one cared Finn was a trooper, they jammed Rose into the Buddy cop dynamic of the previous 3 and it all fell flat, etc...

    TFA may have been a bit to much on the nose, nostalgia wise, but there was a lot of new in there that may had been overshadowed by the recycled story, I was excitedly awaiting for the next movie to bring these stories into the light, but it didn't work out that way.
    I'll definitely put a brunt of the blame on Johnson, and I did like Phasma, but everything else, there wasn't much to be excited about. Just to me anyway. I'm only vaguely familiar with the EU, but I do know there were a lot of stories there they could have adapted instead of rehashing an Empire plot, but Disney always goes for the safe bets, and never take risks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    This shows that Vader is beyond his skill and power of episode 3 it does not show Him being above Luke In any way as you know Luke’s not in any of this.

    As far as Luke’s canon feats pre episode 5 he shakes a whole stardestroyer with a force push and we know he beats Vader in 6 though we don’t have extended material past 5.
    I have very little knowledge of expanded material, even comics that might still be considered canon. I know Luke was definitely stronger than Vader in Episode 6, I saw him outright beat him, clean. My argument is Anakin, in his prime, in Episode 3 when he beat Dooku, that Anakin was stronger than Episode 6 Luke, IMO. Do we see Anakin shake a star destroyer? No. I mean, he didn't need to, there were none. In a duel, I'd say Anakin bests Luke based on experience and he himself was very powerful in The Force.

  17. #3517
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Well I just meant in Disney's eyes, Rey was the new Luke. Doesn't mean it was convincing to the fan base, which it obviously wasn't. I shouldn't be surprised, J.J Abbrams is kind of a carny director. He's no revolutionary, but he's good at his craft in giving the audience what it wants, but it's nothing everlasting or groundbreaking. His movies are tack ons, as much in Star Wars as Star Trek. He's the kind of director that will come up with an alternate timeline with alternate Captain Kirk instead of Captain Picard. Likewise, he'll come up with a new Darth Vader and rehash The Empire rather than come up with something fresh and new while also honoring the past.
    Spot on. Crazy how he became so influential. Super 8 already showed that he wants to be Spielberg but is just a lame imitation. The film had some awesome moments but in the end falls short of what it could have been. Just like many other things the guy tried.

  18. #3518
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I have very little knowledge of expanded material, even comics that might still be considered canon. I know Luke was definitely stronger than Vader in Episode 6, I saw him outright beat him, clean. My argument is Anakin, in his prime, in Episode 3 when he beat Dooku, that Anakin was stronger than Episode 6 Luke, IMO. Do we see Anakin shake a star destroyer? No. I mean, he didn't need to, there were none. In a duel, I'd say Anakin bests Luke based on experience and he himself was very powerful in The Force.
    Anakin wasn’t in his prime in episode 3 as he improves massively once he becomes Vader as the pictures I linked above show. Anakin might have never reached his prime Due to a bunch of factors holding him back but he peaked some where post episode 3 after he was Vader.

    Luke being stronger then Vader in 6 means he was miles ahead of anakin in 3.

  19. #3519
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I'll definitely put a brunt of the blame on Johnson, and I did like Phasma, but everything else, there wasn't much to be excited about. Just to me anyway. I'm only vaguely familiar with the EU, but I do know there were a lot of stories there they could have adapted instead of rehashing an Empire plot, but Disney always goes for the safe bets, and never take risks.
    I disagree, I thought there were a lot of places to go with the characters and the TFA set ups. Pretty much all of it was thrown away.

    EU wise, there are some plots there that are interesting, a lot of it is 50 Shades of Grey fanfic trash, they weren't exactly wrong to throw it to the side, at least for the future events. The biggest bit of EU that has snuck into the series is Leia's ability to use the force. Which isn't really that far fetched, but their handling of it onscreen was extremely cringey and looked like it belonged in a YouTubers reshoot of Starwars. That should have been scrapped.
    I still think Disney has been bombing this on purpose.

  20. #3520
    Wait, if the critics dislike it, that means y'all will like it, right? Cause that's how it is, you can't trust the opinion of the film experts?


    Seems so, from that reddit post already, that the movie is "worth it" because it doesn't have "Rian Johnson's paws all over it?"

    The cognitive dissonance in the SW community is fucking amazing.

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