Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Lorgar Aurelian]

"Suddenly"?

It's literally what Palpatine was egging Luke on to do in RotJ.

It also was not centered around the act of killing itself. It had to do with her doing so out of anger and hatred. That was the key point. He explicitly said so. And it's why he got so worried when she gave over on all that. That was the moment she could finally hear all the Jedi. That was what changed.

Seriously, this stuff is explicitly shown in the film, and it's the entire central point of that scene. Not sure how you could possibly miss it.

I mean sure there’s an explainion but that explainion is still a load of shit. Palp was happy when Vader stoped Luke he was trying to turn Luke to the dark but he never planned to die or take Luke’s body’s and with the rule of two in the prequels and all the other canon material it makes a ton more sense that he wanted an appetence to take over for him the proper way which is why he was trying to get rid of Vader.

The soul swapping nonsense should have stayed in the EU as it makes no sense.

[JerseyGhoul]

Huge Star Wars fan, went in almost completely unspoiled (only knew that rey's parents were brought up again in the movie but not the context) and I have to say I only got mad enough that I considered walking out twice. First time was the parent reveal, second time was the kiss.

The kiss in TLJ irked me because I am so sick of movies feeling the need to shoe-horn in some forced romance, because why else would anyone do anything if not for romantic love, right? But RoS's kiss was infuriating to me. Even more so after I read that J.J. basically considers it incest, and decided, "Yeah, that needs to be in the film."

The parent thing just made it abundantly clear that J.J. simply had no new ideas, nothing to contribute to the series except trying to massage the egos of some virulent online mobs. So much of the move was just visible checkbox ticking.

People didn't like Rose and Finn kissing? Better not have them interact for more than 3 seconds! Rey's parents presented a new and interesting take? Eh, retcon the heck out of that! Luke throwing his lightsaber away hurt people's feelings? Better make him do the exact opposite!

The only major plot beat I enjoyed was Kylo's, which is saying something because of how much I've disliked him as a character in the series so far. But the endless fetch-quests and wildly transparent fan service, looking at TLJ not as a springboard toward new challenges or ideas but as an opportunity to gaslight away? No thanks.

But hey, at least we got more mystery boxes! Like the mystery box of Maz saying there was an interesting story behind how she got Luke's lightsaber in episode 7? Well does our pal Finn have the start of a conversation for you!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'll admit. i was somewhat disappointed how they handled the end bad guy *not giving info on what bad guy for those that haven't seen it yet* but for those that have, you'll already know.

i think they died quick like a chump ..but that's just me.

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Makes you wonder if JJ even did his homework and read up on the lore..or consulted Lucas on the idea for his opinion. Maybe his writers thought the idea was cool and went with it, even though it wasn't confirmed to be true. I don't know much about canon and have never heard of the idea that if you kill a sith, they transfer to whomever kills them.
plethora, haven't heard that word since the 3 amigos comedy. *would you say htat i have a plethora of pinatas?* lol

As far as the new canon goes there’s no precedent for it. The closest thing is sith ghost possessing items and then people with said items but there are no sith body jumpers in the Disney canon before TROS.

In the old canon it was a thing but it had nothing to do with actual killing the sith your self some sith could just live past death and body hop until destroyed one way or another.

[Zaktar]

It's silly because somehow he's counting on it. At least in ROTJ they had the "join us or die" thing, but it was weak there too. Here it's far weaker. He has no back up, just trusting that she'll turn evil because she killed the baddest guy in the galaxy that everyone wants to see dead.

It means we are left with a scene where the protagonist has the means to kill the antagonist but can't attack him. I'm sitting there in the theater like, what the hell? They're just standing there talking but there's no point to it. At that point the "self kill" was basically guaranteed. It also saddens me because it's the safe choice - people don't like to deal with the complexity of "some people have to die" and that violence is usually necessary if you want to overthrow the people in charge. Far more interesting and bold to have her be like, "nope, I'm good" and cut him in half with her lightsaber. It bothers me that film makers seem to have no problem with good guys killing endless random stormtroopers but they make it so the killing of the emperor is scarring.

There wasn't much tension in the scene either. Think about the better scenes in previous movies. In Empire, Vader wins, which is pretty surprising. In ROTJ, the Vader changing sides thing happens, and the emperor electricity thing was new and hinted at amazing powers. In Phantom Menace, Maul kills Qui Gonn (speaking of which, why didn't Obi Wan become a Sith after killing Maul in anger as a not fully trained Jedi?). In this one you have the one side who won't kill facing the other side who's begging her to kill him, just waiting for some external thing to pop in and break the stalemate. Ben has already turned so that's not very interesting. You don't even really get light sabers, except with extras, and extras always die in star wars. It was all just flat.

I basically agree, and there were a lot of directions they could have gone which would have been more interesting , which is all the more frustrating. The film doesn't really say anything. Ultimately at the end of Jedi Luke rejects violence and chooses to die rather than fight. His sacrifice moves his father, who chooses to sacrifice himself to save his son and destroy the man killing him. Luke goes from boy with fighting spirit, to brash fighter, to mature man who honors the lessons of his teacher and rejects the path of evil. Say what you will about the prequels, but their picture of the Jedi, of Anakin, just deepen this moment. The films work together to tell a story. I'm not a believer in the brilliance of Lucas as a storyteller, but he is a storyteller, which is more than I can say for the crew behind this trilogy. It was less a story and more a series of interesting events.

Ultimately at the end of this film Palpatine is so evil and stupid that he decides to destroy himself by shooting lightning into something which is reflecting it back at him. I guess maybe that moment says something about the character, his self-destructive arrogance perhaps, but the rest of the film wasn't about him at all, so it's not exactly a coherent message. Rey's journey culminates with her learning to hold a lightsaber up in front of lightning, and realizing that two is better than one. It was smarter than what Luke did, but you're right, it was flat, because there was little/no emotional struggle preceding it. Emotional moments have to be earned, and the work wasn't put in.

[Muajin76]

I thought the implication was that when she struck him down she would not only be giving into the dark side and her hatred (because you definitely hate people you only just found out exist) but also opening herself up to some sort of essence transfer the Palpatine was intending to perform with his real death.

Hence she would become Sith in the sense that she would become Palpatine's vessel.

The entire premise is rooted in EU lore and ancient sith ritual.

Hmm..what's the difference between EU lore and non EU lore?

[Ragedaug]

Makes you wonder if JJ even did his homework and read up on the lore..or consulted Lucas on the idea for his opinion. Maybe his writers thought the idea was cool and went with it, even though it wasn't confirmed to be true. I don't know much about canon and have never heard of the idea that if you kill a sith, they transfer to whomever kills them.

I would say that's accurate. I wouldn't label JJ as anything more than a casual or passing fan of Star Wars. So he hears that line from RotJ and figures it's applicable, ie. "kill me while you are angry and you become a Sith", stuff. But if we are being honest, it's Lucas who came up with that line. If anything I'd agree with a point made recently in this thread that one of the problems was not getting the correct directors.

I can't stand TLJ, but I have to admit Rian Johnson was just doing what he always does. I think TFA and RoS probably could have been done better, but JJ is just doing what he does (I have enjoyed all the Disney SW movies except TLJ). Those directors are just doing what's in their nature. You have to look at the person who picked them - *cough* Kennedy - to find the root of the problem.

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Hmm..what's the difference between EU lore and non EU lore?

I would say EU lore is any Star Wars lore that falls outside of official canon. So non-EU lore would be official canon. EU lore is Star Wars lore created under Lucusfilm, before the Disney acquisition, that was not created by or endorsed by Lucas himself.

[Muajin76]

I would say that's accurate. I wouldn't label JJ as anything more than a casual or passing fan of Star Wars. So he hears that line from RotJ and figures it's applicable, ie. "kill me while you are angry and you become a Sith", stuff. But if we are being honest, it's Lucas who came up with that line. If anything I'd agree with a point made recently in this thread that one of the problems was not getting the correct directors.

I can't stand TLJ, but I have to admit Rian Johnson was just doing what he always does. I think TFA and RoS probably could have been done better, but JJ is just doing what he does (I have enjoyed all the Disney SW movies except TLJ). Those directors are just doing what's in their nature. You have to look at the person who picked them - *cough* Kennedy - to find the root of the problem.

Kinda reminds me of the Marvel directors. They can never agree on ONE thing and just do their own thing. I was ticked when i saw X-Men and wonderd wtf iceman was a student and not a professor *as he was on the cover of the first comic* Oh well..directors and writers will continue to do things their own way.

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I would say that's accurate. I wouldn't label JJ as anything more than a casual or passing fan of Star Wars. So he hears that line from RotJ and figures it's applicable, ie. "kill me while you are angry and you become a Sith", stuff. But if we are being honest, it's Lucas who came up with that line. If anything I'd agree with a point made recently in this thread that one of the problems was not getting the correct directors.

I can't stand TLJ, but I have to admit Rian Johnson was just doing what he always does. I think TFA and RoS probably could have been done better, but JJ is just doing what he does (I have enjoyed all the Disney SW movies except TLJ). Those directors are just doing what's in their nature. You have to look at the person who picked them - *cough* Kennedy - to find the root of the problem.

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I would say EU lore is any Star Wars lore that falls outside of official canon. So non-EU lore would be official canon. EU lore is Star Wars lore created under Lucusfilm, before the Disney acquisition, that was not created by or endorsed by Lucas himself.

Ahh ok. I first read about Star wars Legends recenty and thought what is this?? until i read that it is EU. Got a bit confused.

[Ragedaug]

I thought the implication was that when she struck him down she would not only be giving into the dark side and her hatred (because you definitely hate people you only just found out exist) but also opening herself up to some sort of essence transfer the Palpatine was intending to perform with his real death.

Hence she would become Sith in the sense that she would become Palpatine's vessel.

The entire premise is rooted in EU lore and ancient sith ritual.

The problem with this premise, is that any Jedi that kills a Sith would be susceptible to this, which makes it untenable to resolving the Jedi/Sith conflict.

[Muajin76]

The problem with this premise, is that any Jedi that kills a Sith would be susceptible to this, which makes it untenable to resolving the Jedi/Sith conflict.

This would be a great question for JJ. *So of the countless sith to be struck down by Jedi over the maaaaaaaany years, would any of the Jedi have a chance of getting said dead sith's soul transfered to the Jedi that struck them down?* Perhaps his answer would be like *Jedi have a strong will due to training, thus preventing this* lol

[Aresk]

In Phantom Menace, Maul kills Qui Gonn (speaking of which, why didn't Obi Wan become a Sith after killing Maul in anger as a not fully trained Jedi?).

Maul didn't die from getting cut in half. I'm not saying it's sensible or good storytelling, but that's the first thing that came to mind as to why that wouldn't happen.

It seemed to me that the body jumping was specific to Rey since she was his granddaughter. I don't think he could have jumped into just anyone, since he had Kylo available and never used him.

[Ragedaug]

This would be a great question for JJ. *So of the countless sith to be struck down by Jedi over the maaaaaaaany years, would any of the Jedi have a chance of getting said dead sith's soul transfered to the Jedi that struck them down?* Perhaps his answer would be like *Jedi have a strong will due to training, thus preventing this* lol

Sure, but it would be a better question for Lucas who wrote that line.

[Muajin76]

Maul didn't die from getting cut in half. I'm not saying it's sensible or good storytelling, but that's the first thing that came to mind as to why that wouldn't happen.

I thought Maul did die, until i saw him in a cartoon episode with him having robotic legs/spider legs lol

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Sure, but it would be a better question for Lucas who wrote that line.

Oh, true..would be a question for Lucas then. JJ was just following his lines, he wouldn't have a clue then lol

[Ragedaug]

Maul didn't die from getting cut in half. I'm not saying it's sensible or good storytelling, but that's the first thing that came to mind as to why that wouldn't happen.

It seemed to me that the body jumping was specific to Rey since she was his granddaughter. I don't think he could have jumped into just anyone, since he had Kylo available and never used him.

You seem to imply that you can mutilate someone in anger and still be a Jedi in good standing, but if they died, only then would you become a Sith. The point was that he struck to kill in anger and that didn't turn him into a Sith, which it shouldn't.

I don't understand why someone having 1/4 of your DNA would facilitate an "essence transfer".

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Oh, true..would be a question for Lucas then. JJ was just following his lines, he wouldn't have a clue then lol

Personally, I just attribute it to Palpatine being a BS'er. He was manipulating Luke to engage Vader and was egging him on with his "strike me down" talk. With Rey he was acting like he wanted it, but then talking about how she would become him, so I assume he didn't actually want to die, but was stalling by telling her if she killed him, she would become him.

[Aresk]

I don't understand why someone having 1/4 of your DNA would facilitate an "essence transfer".

Well, medically they test family for organ donors. We know that force powers also are hereditary. That's why I thought Rey's biological relationship may be a contributing factor. Ultimately, it doesn't seem like the ritual has any good ruleset defining it, given that all we know is that if Rey strikes him down, he'll inhabit her body. It could be something related to Rey specifically that sets her apart from everyone else. It could be related to her level of training. It could be something that could be done with everything, but Palpatine was dead set on the poetic nature of keeping it in the family. We just don't know.

[Zaktar]

Maul didn't die from getting cut in half. I'm not saying it's sensible or good storytelling, but that's the first thing that came to mind as to why that wouldn't happen.

It seemed to me that the body jumping was specific to Rey since she was his granddaughter. I don't think he could have jumped into just anyone, since he had Kylo available and never used him.

That's a pretty significant technicality, and pretty clearly wasn't the initial intent of the film. The character wasn't brought back until over 10 years later.

[cyberglum]

So, as speculated by Mike on RLM, is this the first time we're actually seeing the REAL Palpatine, and the one we're familar in from Ep1-6 was a clone?

[Horrid Crow]

So, as speculated by Mike on RLM, is this the first time we're actually seeing the REAL Palpatine, and the one we're familar in from Ep1-6 was a clone?

I don't think so. I think we all just have to assume that Palatine survived at the ending of RotJ, seeing how mangled up he is.

- Either the fall didn't kill him, and he escaped before the explosion of the Death Star II. There is more than enough time for him to do so, seeing how we had that whole Luke and Anakin moment before they escaped the explosion.

- He did fall down, but survived. We clearly see debris spreading everywhere after the explosion. Maybe he was stuck on a piece of debris that fell down. This theory seems the least likely though, but meh. You have to suspend your disbelief anyway since TRoS never explains what really happened.

[Hyeonh]

I thought Maul did die, until i saw him in a cartoon episode with him having robotic legs/spider legs lol

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Oh, true..would be a question for Lucas then. JJ was just following his lines, he wouldn't have a clue then lol

Sith in the expanded universe are notoriously hard to kill off permanently. Many of them have to be too angry to die to just stay alive. There was even one Sith named Darth Sion that lived for centuries past his natural life span by purposely putting himself in a state of hatred and he died because for one second he stopped being angry. What's worst is the ones that die can also possess other people to live on in a way. Palpatine did that in the Expanded universe as well where he cloned extra bodies to possess and use, only way to stop him permanently was to make sure he had no other way of coming back again.

[Darththeo]

Dude did you actually read anything? She worked with friendly scavengers Then she left them after realizing she didn't need them anymore. Where is this cannon source that has her working with people she didn't need help from anymore????

Ungor held all the food. Scavengers had jack shit. She needed stuff from Ungor she didn't need the friendly scavengers anymore and so left them. If that wasn't the case why wouldn't she still be living with them and working with them?? Anyways I'm done responding at this point as you clearly seem obsessed with your own fanfiction and not facts.

Rey's story in Before the Awakening. She works with two other scavengers who later stab her in the back. Rey finds a ship starts to repair it. Two other scavengers approach her and offer to help (assuming Rey wants to get off Jakku). Rey at first refuses and then later works with them as it insure the ship is protected while others either scavenge for or trade for parts (in other words, in order to keep her prize, she needs their help). As these scavengers stole the ship from under her, they are unlikely to be the same scavengers from her journal.

Seriously, canon story rather than her journal. How a character feels is not a fact of reality.

Again, you are going 2 + 2 = 3. Ungor canonly looked out for Rey. Ungor canonly controlled the scavengers and guards. Rey canonly knows Ungor looked out for her. Put the pieces together. Do you really believe Ungor who wanted to keep Rey around didn't have other scavengers looking out for her?

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To explain the ending.

In order for Palpatine to take over Rey, she needed to kill him during the ceremony where he was was permitting her to. The ceremony failed, and thus the essence transfer wouldn't happen. Rey needed to kill him also in anger.

Is it a good explanation? Absolutely not, but is an explanation.

[Skulltaker]

I don't think so. I think we all just have to assume that Palatine survived at the ending of RotJ, seeing how mangled up he is.

- Either the fall didn't kill him, and he escaped before the explosion of the Death Star II. There is more than enough time for him to do so, seeing how we had that whole Luke and Anakin moment before they escaped the explosion.

- He did fall down, but survived. We clearly see debris spreading everywhere after the explosion. Maybe he was stuck on a piece of debris that fell down. This theory seems the least likely though, but meh. You have to suspend your disbelief anyway since TRoS never explains what really happened.

So, as speculated by Mike on RLM, is this the first time we're actually seeing the REAL Palpatine, and the one we're familar in from Ep1-6 was a clone?

Nah. He said he already died once. Most likely he found a way to save his conciousness and inserted it into a new body. Since the technique isn't perfect, this body rots. Maybe that's where the Baby Yoda story is going? They need an infusion of potent Force-Sensitive DNA to save whatever husk the Emperor is inhabiting? Snoke might have been a byproduct of that. Or maybe the Emperor on the Death Star was a Clone.

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To explain the ending.

In order for Palpatine to take over Rey, she needed to kill him during the ceremony where he was was permitting her to. The ceremony failed, and thus the essence transfer wouldn't happen. Rey needed to kill him also in anger.

Is it a good explanation? Absolutely not, but is an explanation.

It's much simpler. She didn't kill him. She defended herself, and he got caught by his own lightning, again, thus breaking this cycle. Probably, for it to work, you need to strike the Sith down in anger, as Luke would have, or you need to be willing to become the next vessel, as Rey was. But at the end, she was neither angry nor willing.

One might have thought that he had the good sense to stop after he seared his face into a rugged mess for the first time, but apparently, evil is even dumber than good.