View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    121 19.30%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    95 15.15%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    153 24.40%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    167 26.63%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.51%
  1. #5641
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    My "hostility" is because they decanonized everything including the Thrawn trilogy which is a much better story than the shitshow that is the sequel trilogy. It's not one person it was the official system the canon categories are at the bottom of the article.
    They did not decanonize anything. If you bothered to listen to George Lucas interviews not some employee at Lucas arts your thick skull would know one thing.

    That the ONLY Canon was the movies. Period. Lucas own words on the matter.

    Thrawn was nothing more than a fanfic wet dream until Disney made him canon.

  2. #5642
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The whole point of that subplot is to show how rash and stupid and eventually futile the "heroics" of Poe and Finn, and the naive idea of goodness that Rose has, actually are.

    Keep in mind, Holdo's plan WOULD HAVE WORKED if Poe had just followed orders, and they took the cloaked transports down to the planet and hid as the First Order passed overhead. But Poe not only sent them on the bizarre and unnecessary side quest, he also, on open comms, *while he knew there was an unknown code breaker on board* discusses Holdo's plan and how stupid it is, giving the code breaker (Benicio Del Torro's character) the information he would later use to betray them.

    I agree, the side quest is kind of clunky, particularly in the whole "enslaved animals need to be freed but fuck the slave kids" angle. It is also pointless in terms of achieving the characters' goals. But it isn't pointless in terms of theming, and hitting on the lessons RJ was trying to convey about the naivete of people like Poe, Finn, and Rose.

    The average moviegoer, though, doesn't seem to care about themes or morality plays - they deem anything that doesn't move the immediate plot forwards to be useless.
    Except even after Poe's actions got a significant portion of the resistance killed, he wasn't punished in any way. It didn't look like they (Poe, Finn and Rose) learned anything. That is why it was pointless.

    And he wouldn't have done what he did if Holdo had just told him what her plan was in the beginning. It was obvious that he was frustrated thinking she didn't have a plan and she knew he was a cowboy, so if she had a plan, why not tell him what it was so he could either help, or stay out of the way? No good leader would have given him the order to trust her and stay in his room.

    I'm also not sure if blindly following orders is the lesson you want to teach people.

  3. #5643
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    They did not decanonize anything. If you bothered to listen to George Lucas interviews not some employee at Lucas arts your thick skull would know one thing.

    That the ONLY Canon was the movies. Period. Lucas own words on the matter.

    Thrawn was nothing more than a fanfic wet dream until Disney made him canon.
    Such fanfic that lucas had a hand in directing where the expanded universe went storywise himself? Its funny because the most recent movie just shows the EU was far better than the trash that disney has shoveled out.

  4. #5644
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Except even after Poe's actions got a significant portion of the resistance killed, he wasn't punished in any way. It didn't look like they (Poe, Finn and Rose) learned anything. That is why it was pointless.

    And he wouldn't have done what he did if Holdo had just told him what her plan was in the beginning. It was obvious that he was frustrated thinking she didn't have a plan and she knew he was a cowboy, so if she had a plan, why not tell him what it was so he could either help, or stay out of the way? No good leader would have given him the order to trust her and stay in his room.

    I'm also not sure if blindly following orders is the lesson you want to teach people.
    Poe, in the very next fight, calls off his fighters because he's learned the lesson: it's no good to die heroically, it's better to survive for another day.

    Thematically, he grows into the position Leia occupies at the beginning of the movie. A few minutes later, when they're trying to figure out their escape, he proposes following the crystal foxes (IE, running away to survive another day), and when he finishes speaking, everyone looks to Leia, and she says, "Well, don't look at me. Follow him!"

    And then, thematically, Finn, who was a coward who just wanted to run away, find Rey, and be safe at the beginning of the movie, grows into Poe's role - the hotheaded guy willing to throw himself into the battering ram for essentially nothing (because it would have just vaporized him). It set him up perfectly to grow into a real Han Solo type character in Episode 9.

    Rose was introduced in this movie, and she was stripped of her naive-ness when Benicio Del Toro is showing that the arms dealers deal to the Resistance as well. She has a talisman-like hold on the pendant she shared with her sister (which represents the heroic ideals she ascribes to the dead sister, and, initially, Finn.) By the end of the movie, she makes a practical-ish decision to save another fighter because they're going to need everyone, and that her sister dying for nothing wasn't really some sort of heroic deed that everything balanced on. I will say, the kiss and her suddenly having romantic feelings for Finn was forced, but again, I thought it was to set up something in the 3rd movie where Finn would have to actually grow, and pick between Rey and Rose, the safe choice being Rose, and Rey kind of being the dangerous choice. And then he would pick Rey, but Rey would fall to the Dark Side, and he'd have to deal with her, and Rose would have to help him, and it'd be a lesson on whether love can overlook everything, or if there needs to be a practicality to it. Of course, JJ trashed all that, but I thought it fairly obvious RJ was trying to set up a love triangle and that conflict for the last movie.

    Also, the Holdo thing has been litigated nonstop. She did what every general does - she compartmentalized information on a need-to-know basis. And as Poe is a literally flight jockey, he didn't need to know. And even though he had been demoted for his Dreadnaught plan, and just demanded he be told all the details of a highly sensitive plan, she didn't send him to his room - hell, she didn't even send him to the brig after his outbreaks. She said, "Hey, trust me." And Poe knows she's an adept Admiral because he recognizes her name when she's introduced as an Admiral from an important battle. But guess what - Holdo isn't perfect either. The point isn't that "oh, only Poe fucked up." Everyone fucks up. Poe's fuck up would have made Holdo's fuck up (to not trust Poe) irrelevant, so it's kind of the more important one, which is fitting because Poe is a main character and he has lessons to learn. Holdo is just there to die in that movie, her character arc happened well before this movie ever happened.

    These are all very basic things you can draw from this film. Again, I have to ask if people paid attention when watching, or just go into a blind rage about the movie, every time.

  5. #5645
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    TLJ is competently plotted. You might not like the trappings of the plot, but the five act structure is there. The character’s actions are driven by their personalities. You might not like their personalities, but that doesn’t mean they have no motives. Their motivations don’t turn on a dime. The movie has a discernible central theme. You might not like the theme of dealing with and overcoming failure, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. No one complains about sand. It doesn’t have jar jar binks. No one wanders off four times in one damn film, endangering everyone else in the process.

    Complaints about Holdo having purple hair and people bitching about nonsense made up space physics hold zero weight to me.
    It's not competently plotted in the slightest there is a good half hour that could be taken out without losing anything. The central plot is essentially a low speed car chase such magic much drama. Whoever wrote Holdo obviously did zero research into the military. No person competent enough to be promoted to a command position would just expect everyone to follow them to their deaths with no clue what is going on. The sun will come back or w/e is one of the stupidest lines I've ever seen. The entirety of the rebellion is on the run for their lives and you are refusing to share what the hell you are going to do with one of the few people who is respected enough to get others to question you. That doesn't make sense nobody with that kind of thinking would be promoted to a command position. Also it absolutely has a JarJar her name is Rose and her entire existence and plot related to it could be cut with losing nothing.

    In terms of being a star wars movie it actively detracts from the achievements in the OT by making them no matter. It's a bad film without delving into the other stuff.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    They did not decanonize anything. If you bothered to listen to George Lucas interviews not some employee at Lucas arts your thick skull would know one thing.

    That the ONLY Canon was the movies. Period. Lucas own words on the matter.

    Thrawn was nothing more than a fanfic wet dream until Disney made him canon.
    Lucas considered the movies to override everything but he also incorporated parts of the EU into the official works. Again this isn't some employee this was the official database there were tiers of canon but Thrawn was absolutely canon.

  6. #5646
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Poe, in the very next fight, calls off his fighters because he's learned the lesson: it's no good to die heroically, it's better to survive for another day.
    Except that was not how the situation was presented at all. They were clearly going to die if nothing happened, the same way they were going to die if Poe didnt take care of that ship destroyer a few moment earlier
    But oops, last minute update, turn out Holdo had a plan after all, and nobody needed to do ANYTHING the whole time.

    Same exact thing happen on Crait : The super laser is coming and everyone is about to die trapped in a cave, somebody clearly need to do something
    But oops, actually the "death star" laser is weak as fuck and there was an exit in the back the whole time, guess nobody needed to do anything again.

    The lesson here is that Rian Johnson like to surprise his viewers with cheap tricks by creating a situation where doom is imminent and heroics are needed, then switching the plot around to cancel the tension he's been building up the whole time, thus making the character going for the logical decision look dumb as bricks, aka Poe and Flynn.
    You can't help to feel sorry for the poor fuckers trapped in this SNL skit.

    Also please avoid closing your post with implying people who disagree with you are "blinded by rage" while you, an intellectual, clearly paid attention to this masterpiece, there's enough cringe in the source material as it is.

  7. #5647
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It's not competently plotted in the slightest there is a good half hour that could be taken out without losing anything. The central plot is essentially a low speed car chase such magic much drama. Whoever wrote Holdo obviously did zero research into the military. No person competent enough to be promoted to a command position would just expect everyone to follow them to their deaths with no clue what is going on. The sun will come back or w/e is one of the stupidest lines I've ever seen. The entirety of the rebellion is on the run for their lives and you are refusing to share what the hell you are going to do with one of the few people who is respected enough to get others to question you. That doesn't make sense nobody with that kind of thinking would be promoted to a command position. Also it absolutely has a JarJar her name is Rose and her entire existence and plot related to it could be cut with losing nothing.
    I feel like A) you don't know how the military works at all in a combat situation,
    B) you especially don't know how military intelligence works,
    and
    C) you're forgetting the situation set up in the movie: that the First Order had somehow tracked the fleet through hyperspace, and Holdo didn't know if she had a rat on board with a transponder or something, and had to compartmentalize information.

    Even without C), though, sensitive operation parameters are ALWAYS need-to-know, and a fighter pilot who isn't currently strapped in (IE, the Fleet wasn't engaging with X wings, of which Poe was a pilot) doesn't need-to-know. The movie clearly sets up that the command structure knew the plan, because they were there when she was fueling up the transports, and well, it was on a giant screen, and they were obviously okay with it. If the plan had involved X Wings being used as a distraction or something, or to engage in a last ditch effort, and she didn't tell Poe - then yes, that'd be unjustifiably stupid.

    Poe was just disobeying orders and being exactly what she accused him of being: a trigger happy fly boy. Reckless, and dangerous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    Except that was not how the situation was presented at all. They were clearly going to die if nothing happened, the same way they were going to die if Poe didnt take care of that ship destroyer a few moment earlier
    But oops, last minute update, turn out Holdo had a plan after all, and nobody needed to do ANYTHING the whole time.

    Same exact thing happen on Crait : The super laser is coming and everyone is about to die trapped in a cave, somebody clearly need to do something
    But oops, actually the "death star" laser is weak as fuck and there was an exit in the back the whole time, guess nobody needed to do anything again.

    The lesson here is that Rian Johnson like to surprise his viewers with cheap tricks by creating a situation where doom is imminent and heroics are needed, then switching the plot around to cancel the tension he's been building up the whole time, thus making the character going for the logical decision look dumb as bricks, aka Poe and Flynn.
    You can't help to feel sorry for the poor fuckers trapped in this SNL skit.

    Also please avoid closing your post with implying people who disagree with you are "blinded by rage" while you, an intellectual, clearly paid attention to this masterpiece, there's enough cringe in the source material as it is.
    The beam laser wasn't weak. It one shot the door. But the ground invasion just never happened. It never got to that. Luke went out and Kylo Ren stopped everything to try and kill Luke. All the cannon did was open and warm up, which is why Finn just didn't instantly disintegrate when he entered the beam it was emitting. But guess what, when it actually fired, the door just exploded.

    RJ didn't set up their doom and then relieve the tension of it. What he did was have Poe make the (right) decision to flee, with the information he had - which didn't include Luke showing up. The point is they needed the extra time, and they needed Poe's leadership in the bunker, instead of him dying pointlessly in the battle. Ironically, the laser one shots the door, and the doom is averted not by anything actual done by the Resistance, but by Kylo's impotent rage, and his need to utterly destroy Luke when the door was wide open and gaping and ready for the FO to wipe out the Resistance. And that whole sideshow of Kylo devolving and falling into his rage gave the Resistance the little bit of extra time they needed to escape. The right choice was to flee, and try and survive another day. And it's not illogical to assume there's a way out of an unmapped cave system.

    All I'm asking is people actually pay attention to what happened in the movie. Which the vast majority of its critics didn't seem to do.

    Edit: As for Poe "needing" to destroy the Dreadnaught....no. The plan, as agreed upon, was to jump to hyperspace and flee, but Poe felt the need to destroy the Dreadnaught cause it was too big a trophy for him to pass up. If they couldn't trace through hyperspace, again, that plan would have worked, and the bombers would have been intact and fine. They obviously didn't know that they could be tracked, but they had the best plan for what they knew. He only "saved" them inadvertently, by complete fucking accident, because had the Dreadnaught come out on the other side of the hyperspace jump, it would have been able to easily destroy the fleet, unlike the other ships.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2019-12-31 at 09:17 AM.

  8. #5648
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I feel like A) you don't know how the military works at all in a combat situation,
    B) you especially don't know how military intelligence works,
    and
    C) you're forgetting the situation set up in the movie: that the First Order had somehow tracked the fleet through hyperspace, and Holdo didn't know if she had a rat on board with a transponder or something, and had to compartmentalize information.

    Even without C), though, sensitive operation parameters are ALWAYS need-to-know, and a fighter pilot who isn't currently strapped in (IE, the Fleet wasn't engaging with X wings, of which Poe was a pilot) doesn't need-to-know. The movie clearly sets up that the command structure knew the plan, because they were there when she was fueling up the transports, and well, it was on a giant screen, and they were obviously okay with it. If the plan had involved X Wings being used as a distraction or something, or to engage in a last ditch effort, and she didn't tell Poe - then yes, that'd be unjustifiably stupid.

    Poe was just disobeying orders and being exactly what she accused him of being: a trigger happy fly boy. Reckless, and dangerous.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The beam laser wasn't weak. It one shot the door. But the ground invasion just never happened. It never got to that. Luke went out and Kylo Ren stopped everything to try and kill Luke. All the cannon did was open and warm up, which is why Finn just didn't instantly disintegrate when he entered the beam it was emitting. But guess what, when it actually fired, the door just exploded.

    RJ didn't set up their doom and then relieve the tension of it. What he did was have Poe make the (right) decision to flee, with the information he had - which didn't include Luke showing up. The point is they needed the extra time, and they needed Poe's leadership in the bunker, instead of him dying pointlessly in the battle. Ironically, the laser one shots the door, and the doom is averted not by anything actual done by the Resistance, but by Kylo's impotent rage, and his need to utterly destroy Luke when the door was wide open and gaping and ready for the FO to wipe out the Resistance. And that whole sideshow of Kylo devolving and falling into his rage gave the Resistance the little bit of extra time they needed to escape. The right choice was to flee, and try and survive another day. And it's not illogical to assume there's a way out of an unmapped cave system.

    All I'm asking is people actually pay attention to what happened in the movie. Which the vast majority of its critics didn't seem to do.

    Edit: As for Poe "needing" to destroy the Dreadnaught....no. The plan, as agreed upon, was to jump to hyperspace and flee, but Poe felt the need to destroy the Dreadnaught cause it was too big a trophy for him to pass up. If they couldn't trace through hyperspace, again, that plan would have worked, and the bombers would have been intact and fine. They obviously didn't know that they could be tracked, but they had the best plan for what they knew. He only "saved" them inadvertently, by complete fucking accident, because had the Dreadnaught come out on the other side of the hyperspace jump, it would have been able to easily destroy the fleet, unlike the other ships.
    Can you for once stop treating the Resistance as a formal military? It isn't. It is more of a rag tag militia. People are free to come and go as they please so long as they do not take something they didn't bring to the Resistance. IE, you can't take an X-Wing, unless it was your X-Wing you brought. You are free to come and go as you want. It does not operate the same as the formal military.

    And stop trying to justify Holdo's shitty character. Seriously, she never states there is a plan to anyone and just stating there is a plan would alleviate any tension and also it won't risk anything if there was a mole on board.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  9. #5649
    All things considered it was OK. I'd give it a 6,5/10.
    Considering the material of the previous two movies, I guess they made the most out of it.
    It does pack an emotional punch at the end. So that's commendable.
    Personally, I'm sick of the fast, chaotic, overdone and pompous style of these movies. But that's just Hollywood in general these days.
    Looking at the story as a whole, this trilogy felt entirely unnecessary and repetitive compared to the original trilogy and the prequels. While the prequels were worse in some aspects, they connected quite nicely to the original trilogy in the end. And they provided at least the same entertainment value. In fact, I think some of the action scenes of the prequels were more fun.

  10. #5650
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're clearly ignoring the moments in their fight where Luke was hammering away at his Dad in a frenzy, doing his absolute damndest to chop his father into chunks of steaming meat.

    Did he pull himself back from that edge a moment later? Sure. Does that mean he wasn't tipping over into the Dark Side in that moment? Not in the least; that's not just shown, it's clearly reinforced by Palpatine's running commentary on exactly that.



    He was standing there, concerned about the darkness he felt in Ben. And in a moment of weakness, got scared by what he could become, had a Dark thought, and immediately stifled it. But Ben felt it, and reacted.

    Luke didn't attack Ben at any point.



    He's really only had one teacher, and that was Yoda. And it's exactly the kind of silly crap Yoda pulled on him. Which was also played for laughs, during ESB.
    And you're ignoring the part where he was being taunted by people that threatened to murder his friends and allies to glad him into doing it. Vs trying to murder someone who hadn't done anything evil in their sleep.

    Everything looks the same when you dishonestly ignore context.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I feel like A) you don't know how the military works at all in a combat situation,
    B) you especially don't know how military intelligence works,
    and
    C) you're forgetting the situation set up in the movie: that the First Order had somehow tracked the fleet through hyperspace, and Holdo didn't know if she had a rat on board with a transponder or something, and had to compartmentalize information.

    Even without C), though, sensitive operation parameters are ALWAYS need-to-know, and a fighter pilot who isn't currently strapped in (IE, the Fleet wasn't engaging with X wings, of which Poe was a pilot) doesn't need-to-know. The movie clearly sets up that the command structure knew the plan, because they were there when she was fueling up the transports, and well, it was on a giant screen, and they were obviously okay with it. If the plan had involved X Wings being used as a distraction or something, or to engage in a last ditch effort, and she didn't tell Poe - then yes, that'd be unjustifiably stupid.

    Poe was just disobeying orders and being exactly what she accused him of being: a trigger happy fly boy. Reckless, and dangerous.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The beam laser wasn't weak. It one shot the door. But the ground invasion just never happened. It never got to that. Luke went out and Kylo Ren stopped everything to try and kill Luke. All the cannon did was open and warm up, which is why Finn just didn't instantly disintegrate when he entered the beam it was emitting. But guess what, when it actually fired, the door just exploded.

    RJ didn't set up their doom and then relieve the tension of it. What he did was have Poe make the (right) decision to flee, with the information he had - which didn't include Luke showing up. The point is they needed the extra time, and they needed Poe's leadership in the bunker, instead of him dying pointlessly in the battle. Ironically, the laser one shots the door, and the doom is averted not by anything actual done by the Resistance, but by Kylo's impotent rage, and his need to utterly destroy Luke when the door was wide open and gaping and ready for the FO to wipe out the Resistance. And that whole sideshow of Kylo devolving and falling into his rage gave the Resistance the little bit of extra time they needed to escape. The right choice was to flee, and try and survive another day. And it's not illogical to assume there's a way out of an unmapped cave system.

    All I'm asking is people actually pay attention to what happened in the movie. Which the vast majority of its critics didn't seem to do.

    Edit: As for Poe "needing" to destroy the Dreadnaught....no. The plan, as agreed upon, was to jump to hyperspace and flee, but Poe felt the need to destroy the Dreadnaught cause it was too big a trophy for him to pass up. If they couldn't trace through hyperspace, again, that plan would have worked, and the bombers would have been intact and fine. They obviously didn't know that they could be tracked, but they had the best plan for what they knew. He only "saved" them inadvertently, by complete fucking accident, because had the Dreadnaught come out on the other side of the hyperspace jump, it would have been able to easily destroy the fleet, unlike the other ships.
    Is that why the dreadnought was just going to sit there and let them flee? Wow. That's impressive that they'd allow them to run. Just like it's impressive they wasted time blowing up a stationary base instead of destroying their ship.

    Maybe don't make it blatantly obvious everyone will die if nothing is done.

  11. #5651
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    They did not decanonize anything. If you bothered to listen to George Lucas interviews not some employee at Lucas arts your thick skull would know one thing.

    That the ONLY Canon was the movies. Period. Lucas own words on the matter.

    Thrawn was nothing more than a fanfic wet dream until Disney made him canon.
    Lucas said that the EU was like an alternate universe its canon to it self which also includes the movies. As far as the company (Lucas films) the EU was the canon while Lucas ignored it when making the movies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta333 View Post
    Such fanfic that lucas had a hand in directing where the expanded universe went storywise himself? Its funny because the most recent movie just shows the EU was far better than the trash that disney has shoveled out.
    Lucas didn’t direct the EU he flat out said he doesn't read any of it and it was an alternate universe. Lucas had a hand in the clone wars cartoon but that is likely it.

  12. #5652
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    Felt like its should have been two movies.

    The first half was all damage repair from TLJ so it could put together a second half that actually made some form of chronological sense from the headless meandering situation the second film left us in.

    Also the mary-sueness of Rey in this one was hilarious, it reminded me of a computer game like Metroid where she was picking up new abilities and powering up as she went. Except unlike in the game where you actually have to find and learn these abilities she just plucks them out of her arse when she needs them. Sure she is ment to be powerful because of her lineage, but even Luke, who up until now was supposed to be most powerful Jedi in the force still had to be taught most of his shit or study the Jedi texts for instruction.

    All of which could have be fixed with the exact thing they didnt have........more time! It again felt like it should have been two films and a shining example of why you need to go into a trilogy with a solid arc and stick to that plot so all three films are cohearant and not let idiot self serving directors change things so drastically that you have to spend half of your budget on fixing shit!!

  13. #5653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    And you're ignoring the part where he was being taunted by people that threatened to murder his friends and allies to glad him into doing it. Vs trying to murder someone who hadn't done anything evil in their sleep.

    Everything looks the same when you dishonestly ignore context.
    Luke didn’t try to murder kylo he saw all the evil that he would do all the pain he would cause and flicked on his saber before he had realized what he was doing. He instantly catch’s him self and feels shame and regret about it before kylo brings the house down.

    With in the context what Luke does with kylo is far better then he did with the emperor or Vader as instead of it just being random taunting about his friends he uses the force to see the future and sees a much larger scale of destruction and he still pulls back before he does any thing unlike the two times he fought Vader before beating him to the ground.

  14. #5654
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Luke didn’t try to murder kylo he saw all the evil that he would do all the pain he would cause and flicked on his saber before he had realized what he was doing. He instantly catch’s him self and feels shame and regret about it before kylo brings the house down.

    With in the context what Luke does with kylo is far better then he did with the emperor or Vader as instead of it just being random taunting about his friends he uses the force to see the future and sees a much larger scale of destruction and he still pulls back before he does any thing unlike the two times he fought Vader before beating him to the ground.
    And Kylo brings the house down because he woke up to an activated lightsaber. That's a gun with the safety off in the context. Is he supposed to respond positively because he Luke "felt bad"?

    And, once again. Mass murdering tyrant actively threatening your friends vs person that has done nothing and is asleep. This is some high tier dishonesty to pretend this are the same.

    Hey. Why didn't Luke kill himself instead of being a hobo since he was the cause of those visions anyway?

  15. #5655
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    And Kylo brings the house down because he woke up to an activated lightsaber. That's a gun with the safety off in the context. Is he supposed to respond positively because he Luke "felt bad"?

    And, once again. Mass murdering tyrant actively threatening your friends vs person that has done nothing and is asleep. This is some high tier dishonesty to pretend this are the same.

    Hey. Why didn't Luke kill himself instead of being a hobo since he was the cause of those visions anyway?
    The point is that Luke was always shown to struggle with Dark Side impulses. He managed to resist, barely, in RoTJ. He resisted, much more easily, in the flashback in TLJ, but he still had the impulse.

    Sure, it's the equivalent of cocking a fist and then not punching your girlfriend. It's very much "not good". But it's still in character, even if he's been trying to be better than that. Because if we're comparing it to domestic abuse, RoTJ was the equivalent of beating your wife bloody because she tried to slap you.

    The "problem" with Luke in TLJ seems to be that people think Luke was 100% Light-Side and thus Dark Side impulses are out of character. And that's just not a problem, because it's simply not true.

  16. #5656
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I feel like A) you don't know how the military works at all in a combat situation,
    B) you especially don't know how military intelligence works,
    and
    C) you're forgetting the situation set up in the movie: that the First Order had somehow tracked the fleet through hyperspace, and Holdo didn't know if she had a rat on board with a transponder or something, and had to compartmentalize information.

    Even without C), though, sensitive operation parameters are ALWAYS need-to-know, and a fighter pilot who isn't currently strapped in (IE, the Fleet wasn't engaging with X wings, of which Poe was a pilot) doesn't need-to-know. The movie clearly sets up that the command structure knew the plan, because they were there when she was fueling up the transports, and well, it was on a giant screen, and they were obviously okay with it. If the plan had involved X Wings being used as a distraction or something, or to engage in a last ditch effort, and she didn't tell Poe - then yes, that'd be unjustifiably stupid.

    Poe was just disobeying orders and being exactly what she accused him of being: a trigger happy fly boy. Reckless, and dangerous.
    Poe (or rather the sacrifice of the stupidly designed bombers) also saved their collective lives, as the Dread was preparing to fire seconds befor the Bomber blew it to shreds, and was put in charge of devising and executing a strategy against the Dreadnought by Leia Organa herself. As Poe is the expert of ship-to-ship combat and he labeled the Dread as a fleet killer, something confirmed by Iden Versio and her daughter during the Battlefront 2 campaign, it is rather certain that the Dread would have blown the Raddus out of space if Poe hadn't gone through with the attack. Leia ordered him to 'get his pilots out of there', indicating at least parts of the fighter force had to land befor the fleet could have jumped. If he had done that, the Dreadnought would have obliterated the Raddus, Leia, Holdo and the entire Resistance Leadership would be dead, and the FO would have probably finished them off then and there.

    As for C and your conclusion, that's utter bs. I agree that need to know is an important concept in the military, but if Holdo is supposed to be such a great leader, she should also know the impact of the situation they are in would have on morale, how liked and supported of a figure Poe is, how he would probably react after being snubbed for saving their collective lives, twice, in a matter of, well canon is iffy on that, either days or hours. If she simply told him 'Look, details are need to know, but we have a hidden base to retreat to, we just need to mask our trail' instead of 'fuck you for doing what my superior told you to do', we could have skipped the entire part about Canto Bright story arc, and the movie would have been significantly better off without that.

    Even if there was a spy on board, it doesn't change their situation. They are still outnumbered, outgunned and out of fuel in 18 hours. Even if the spy is there, and they would take him to Crait, the First Order was still in sight of the leaving transport ships, and would have spotted them leaving the Raddus no matter what. The presence of a Spy changes nothing. The only reason why Holdos plan had any chance of working was because the First Order has been written mind-bogglinly incompetent, to a point where you have to wonder why they are even a threat.
    Last edited by Skulltaker; 2019-12-31 at 04:11 PM.

  17. #5657
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    And Kylo brings the house down because he woke up to an activated lightsaber. That's a gun with the safety off in the context. Is he supposed to respond positively because he Luke "felt bad"?

    And, once again. Mass murdering tyrant actively threatening your friends vs person that has done nothing and is asleep. This is some high tier dishonesty to pretend this are the same.

    Hey. Why didn't Luke kill himself instead of being a hobo since he was the cause of those visions anyway?
    Kylo is tottaly justified in his response from his view Luke was trying to kill him even if that isn’t true.

    And no they aren’t the same what happened with kylo is far worse then the emperor saying his friends will die as striking down the emperor does nothing to save them and the scale of what kylo was going to do was much larger then 4 people and a couple of bots dying.

    Luke’s response isn’t the same either as he actually goes to strike the emperor unlike with kylo. And he beats the crap out of Vader instead just lighting his saber.
    Last edited by Daemos daemonium; 2019-12-31 at 04:13 PM.

  18. #5658
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The point is that Luke was always shown to struggle with Dark Side impulses. He managed to resist, barely, in RoTJ. He resisted, much more easily, in the flashback in TLJ, but he still had the impulse.

    Sure, it's the equivalent of cocking a fist and then not punching your girlfriend. It's very much "not good". But it's still in character, even if he's been trying to be better than that. Because if we're comparing it to domestic abuse, RoTJ was the equivalent of beating your wife bloody because she tried to slap you.

    The "problem" with Luke in TLJ seems to be that people think Luke was 100% Light-Side and thus Dark Side impulses are out of character. And that's just not a problem, because it's simply not true.
    No. Turning on that lightsaber was a clear declaration of wanting him dead. You don't get to act like it was a noble move to try and murder him. BTW, I guess they should have killed Anakin when he started acting funny, right? If you say no, you have no reason to be defending Luke doing it based on a fucking vision.

    Why hasn't Luke tried to murder anyone else since this is such a problem he has? No other student exhibited dark side tendencies to justify murder? For as shitty as the Jedi order was, Like has proven to be just as much of a failure at preventing shit like this. Making his calling out the Jedi order that much more tone deaf.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Kylo is tottaly justified in his response from his view Luke was trying to kill him even if that isn’t true.

    And no they aren’t the same what happened with kylo is far worse then the emperor saying his friends will die as striking down the emperor does nothing to save them and the scale of what kylo was going to do was much larger then 4 people and a couple of bots dying.

    Luke’s response isn’t the same he actually goes to strike the emperor unlike with kylo. And he beats the crap out of Vader instead just lighting his saber.
    Alright. So we're in the minority report universe now. People are good for murdering people in their sleep for things they MIGHT do.

    And it's the same as challenging the head of an evil empire and his top minion actively wanting you to be evil.

  19. #5659
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    Alright. So we're in the minority report universe now. People are good for murdering people in their sleep for things they MIGHT do.

    And it's the same as challenging the head of an evil empire and his top minion actively wanting you to be evil.
    It’s not that he’s good for doing it it’s that when god/the devil shows you a vision of the future and you think it’s real it’s understandable that you would have some impulses on said vision.

    The fact that he stops him self from acting on a divine vision is good though and is better then getting upset because an old man said Your freinds were gonna die even though killing said old man does nothing to help them.

  20. #5660
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    No. Turning on that lightsaber was a clear declaration of wanting him dead. You don't get to act like it was a noble move to try and murder him.
    I'm absolutely not suggesting it was somehow "noble". I'm saying it was horrible. I compared it to cocking a fist to punch your girlfriend. How the fuck is that suggesting it's "a noble move"?

    I was pointing out Luke has always walked this line. The victory in RotJ was that Luke did not fall to his own darker impulses, and that nobility inspired his father into one final act of rebellion against his master. Luke didn't "win" in the OT by being purely light-sided. He "won" by nearly falling to the Dark Side, and keeping himself from doing so.

    I like comparing the Dark Side to alcoholism. With that comparison, the final battle of RotJ isn't Luke living a happy life without alcohol or temptation. It's Luke sitting in a bar, with a glass of whiskey held in front of him, relishing the smell, trying to fight the urge to drink it. And he finally puts it down, and his dad comes into the bar and says "let's get out of here". This is not a story of someone who's not an alcoholic. It's someone who's on the edge of a bender, but manages to stay dry through strength of will. And the thing about alcoholism is that you never get over it. You might stay sober for 30 years, and then slip. And that's what we see in TLJ; a slip.

    That doesn't make it a good thing. It's a terrible thing. But it is in keeping with the Luke we saw in the OT, who struggled with his Dark Side urges throughout.

    BTW, I guess they should have killed Anakin when he started acting funny, right? If you say no, you have no reason to be defending Luke doing it based on a fucking vision.
    I mean, if you consider the timeline, probably, right? No slaughter of the Younglings, the Jedi remain strong and can resist Palpatine, the Empire likely never emerges as it did under Sidious and Vader's thumbs, etc. But that's hindsight.

    And again; I'm not defending Luke's action. I'm defending the writing of Luke doing a terrible thing. Based on his history of similar terrible urges, from the OT.

    Why hasn't Luke tried to murder anyone else since this is such a problem he has?
    He literally did, in the OT.

    No other student exhibited dark side tendencies to justify murder?
    We've been given no indication that this was the case.

    Also, it wasn't that Ben exhibited a little bit of anger or fear. It was a prophetic vision of thousands dead by Ben's hand. A vision that was true, as it turns out.

    For as shitty as the Jedi order was, Like has proven to be just as much of a failure at preventing shit like this. Making his calling out the Jedi order that much more tone deaf.
    That's sort of the point. That's why Luke didn't try again. It's why he took all the Jedi teachings and hid them with him on Ach-to. Because the Jedi fucked up, he fucked up, and he doesn't want to risk himself or anyone else fucking up again.

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