Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Ragedaug]

The 'properly' planned movies were the prequels.

Maybe, but even in the prequels, he conflicted with his own story from the originals. So I don't know if you want to say that was poor decision making over poor planning, but one thing that seems to be clear is that Lucas regularly changes his mind on what he wants to do or to say what direction he wants to take his story.

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Depends on how well you do it. You can be extremely on the nose about it, or you can do it subtle. I'll admit that it is harder in film, since you can't just stuff any part of forshadowing in the back, or noone will see it and then say 'it came out of the blue', or, on the other hand, if you're to on the nose about it, people will catch on to quick.

I'd agree there are better ways to do it, which require a lot of writing skill. But that's a huge expectation to have, that the writer of your story must be skilled enough to include foreshadowing that no one in the Star Wars fan base could figure out what's going to happen, given two years worth of frame-by-frame viewing and fan speculation.

[Skulltaker]

I'd agree there are better ways to do it, which require a lot of writing skill. But that's a huge expectation to have, that the writer of your story must be skilled enough to include foreshadowing that no one in the Star Wars fan base could figure out what's going to happen, given two years worth of frame-by-frame viewing and fan speculation.

One thing you can do is lay out false leads along with the real ones. I remember 4 years back, when discussing TFA with friends after we saw it, that I said that Rey uses Palpatines saber moves and talks with a british accent. Was that forshadowing? Or did they just put that in to mess with fans who interpret to much into everything?

Movies will neverbe able to do this as good as books. Visual components are always more challanging to hide and do well. I remember rereading Harry Potter after the last book dropped and seeing lots and lots of hidden clues that JK already hid in books long befor the end. I don't like her recent works, but back than, that was well done. For example, in book 5 Harry sees Dumbledores brother Aberforth for the first time, in a picture. When he's meeting with friends in the Hog's Head his inner monologue tells us that the barkeeper was somewhat familiar to Harry.
That was well written.

[Elim Garak]

I will never understand people who want everything to be spoonfed to them in the movies... wait for a blu-ray and watch it with commentary, ffs.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The bittersweet thing about SW is its all been foreshadowed one way or another in other media. Cool if you read all of that stuff and picked up on it. WTF if you only watch the movies.

As someone who has probably enjoyed the games always more than the movies I think I would have liked the whole thing better if they had gone into it from the beginning with a stronger fantasy narrative and utlizing the force as magic more often but consistently instead of going for random feats of strentgh whenever the plot demands it. Same with the backdrop, going full into the the siith and jedi doctrines like clonewars etc. did would have probably grabbed me more than straddling the line between old movies and all the fantastical stuff in the "lore". As you said, if you know that stuff exists from the secondary media then it's a different experience than when it seemingly randomly comes up out of nowhere.

[PACOX]

As someone who has probably enjoyed the games always more than the movies I think I would have liked the whole thing better if they had gone into it from the beginning with a stronger fantasy narrative and utlizing the force as magic more often but consistently instead of going for random feats of strentgh whenever the plot demands it. Same with the backdrop, going full into the the siith and jedi doctrines like clonewars etc. did would have probably grabbed me more than straddling the line between old movies and all the fantastical stuff in the "lore". As you said, if you know that stuff exists from the secondary media then it's a different experience than when it seemingly randomly comes up out of nowhere.

Dave Filoni, the Mandalorian showrunner, is both their best and worst asset. He is responsible for a good storyline in the Clone Wars series, a showrunner of Rebels and the showrunner of Resistance. Mandalorian is a hit. Rebels is good but its a very slow burn. Resistance is a good cartoon but not a good SW cartoon because watch it for lore but its burn is slower than Rebels in its 1.5 seasons.

Filoni is good at adapting SW for the screen and bringing new people into stuff outside the movies. Rebels dives into both the fantasy, the hero, and the sci-fi aspects of Star Wars. It also asks viewers for a lot of investment for the payoffs of its story arcs - more than people might want to put into a cartoon.

I think Filoni is going to hit his stride in the Disney+ projects he's involved in and pave the way for future Star Wars storytelling.

Star Wars is an old franchise but fairly new trying to tell a coherent story across multiple mediums. The EU was full of content but also contradicting and easy for people to get into. Disney is trying to create a franchise that consistent across all mediums but one people can geek out with like Marvel/DC comics. The gap between movies where books/comics/tv shows are the major sources of lore is going to establish how that turns out.

Side note:

A lot of people have Amazon Prime. I suggest downloading the free Vader comics. They are great, easy to read during your downtime, and free with a Prime subscription. Also canon. If you want to see why some of us have confidence in Disney's direct, at least off-screen, check out those comics.

[Darththeo]

Dave Filoni, the Mandalorian showrunner, is both their best and worst asset. He is responsible for a good storyline in the Clone Wars series, a showrunner of Rebels and the showrunner of Resistance. Mandalorian is a hit. Rebels is good but its a very slow burn. Resistance is a good cartoon but not a good SW cartoon because watch it for lore but its burn is slower than Rebels in its 1.5 seasons.

Filoni is good at adapting SW for the screen and bringing new people into stuff outside the movies. Rebels dives into both the fantasy, the hero, and the sci-fi aspects of Star Wars. It also asks viewers for a lot of investment for the payoffs of its story arcs - more than people might want to put into a cartoon.

I think Filoni is going to hit his stride in the Disney+ projects he's involved in and pave the way for future Star Wars storytelling.

Star Wars is an old franchise but fairly new trying to tell a coherent story across multiple mediums. The EU was full of content but also contradicting and easy for people to get into. Disney is trying to create a franchise that consistent across all mediums but one people can geek out with like Marvel/DC comics. The gap between movies where books/comics/tv shows are the major sources of lore is going to establish how that turns out.

Side note:

A lot of people have Amazon Prime. I suggest downloading the free Vader comics. They are great, easy to read during your downtime, and free with a Prime subscription. Also canon. If you want to see why some of us have confidence in Disney's direct, at least off-screen, check out those comics.

All of Dave Filoni's work in Star Wars has been relatively slow (not counting the Mandalorian). Clone Wars didn't start great, but it got good before the end of the 1st Season. Rebels took to season 2 to get good. And Resistance got good towards the end of Season 1, but getting through those first episodes was a terrible.

[Sunseeker]

Just to add to this, foreshadowing is very difficult to do in series or delayed story telling where you have a dedicated / obsessed fan base. Any slight bit of foreshadowing + time = the fans will have figured out every 'surprise' twist you had in store for them. If the Sixth Sense came out in two parts, where the 2nd part was released 2 years later, we all would have figured out or heard that the dude was dead the whole time.

So anyway, some more leeway I provide to Abrams with this story telling in that, had he "built up" to some of the things we are complaining about, we would have all figured out the surprise he had in store well in advance.

To make it worse, trailers have gotten really bad at giving away the good parts of the movie.

[Fayolynn]

Just to add to this, foreshadowing is very difficult to do in series or delayed story telling where you have a dedicated / obsessed fan base. Any slight bit of foreshadowing + time = the fans will have figured out every 'surprise' twist you had in store for them. If the Sixth Sense came out in two parts, where the 2nd part was released 2 years later, we all would have figured out or heard that the dude was dead the whole time.

Isn't that the entire point of foreshadowing?

[Xath]

I think that people stick Luke up on a pedestal where he shouldn't be placed. Or what you wanted Luke to kill Rey?

He should have demolished her it should been a wow I have so much still to learn moment. A lot like how Luke couldn't move his X-wing but Yoda could easily.

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1. She tapped into the Force ... if you grant Luke using the Dark Side to win, this really shouldn't bother you. It is hypocritical.

2. I hate when people say "Multiple" when it is 2. It was twice, once before the blast shield, once with the shield. And the rest of this is just your head canon.

3. And Rey doesn't beat Kylo ... the chasm does. See? Stupid argument is stupid. Luke didn't lose to the dianoga, it runs aways ... he was attack yes, but we have no idea beyond head canon whether or not Luke was going to survive it's attack. He did manage get above surface once, it is possible he could have gotten away. Anything here is pure speculation.

4. Again, that's speculation.

5. Vader holding back therefor Luke doesn't win ... but Kylo holding back means Rey wins ... do you not see the hypocrisy in your stance?

6. You have yet to show remotely how Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke isn't keeping with consistent logic.

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4 years at most. Estimates have it as low as a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change...s#Title_change

Officially, 4 years per Lucasfilm. Just to note, this does leave it open to being earlier, official word doesn't mean it is confirmed.

And Lucas always wanted a subtitle, but the most he got was to be allowed to called Episode IV ... marketing people didn't want confusion since it was the first movie in the series. At least that is some reports I heard, so who actually knows what really happened.

Purist view isn't so purist.

Luke was using the force. The only semi win he ever had wasn't just using the force it was going full on rage mode while Vader was toying with him. It's not speculation he was out in the cold dying remember han stuffing him inside the Tauntaun to save his life. Rey is beating Kylo very clearly the Dianoga is very clearly strangling the shit out of Luke and then lets go. Very different fights before they are forced to end. Rey is a mary sue that you still refuse to admit this despite the reasons why being shown multiple times why is because you are irrationally attached to a bad character for some reason.

[Darththeo]

He should have demolished her it should been a wow I have so much still to learn moment. A lot like how Luke couldn't move his X-wing but Yoda could easily.

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Luke was using the force. The only semi win he ever had wasn't just using the force it was going full on rage mode while Vader was toying with him. It's not speculation he was out in the cold dying remember han stuffing him inside the Tauntaun to save his life. Rey is beating Kylo very clearly the Dianoga is very clearly strangling the shit out of Luke and then lets go. Very different fights before they are forced to end. Rey is a mary sue that you still refuse to admit this despite the reasons why being shown multiple times why is because you are irrationally attached to a bad character for some reason.

Unless it happened, it is speculation on what could have happened. She was not "clearly" winning just because you hate the sequels.

Rey is not a Mary Sue that you still refuse to admit despite the reason she is not. And I have point blankly stated that I don't like nor dislike Rey in this topic, I am not attached to her despite your claims otherwise. I have stated I rather talk about the actual problems with her character and not the stupid and wrong Mary Sue claim. She is literally no different than any other Star Wars protagonist in terms of feats just because you can't accept that isn't my fault.

[Xath]

Unless it happened, it is speculation on what could have happened. She was not "clearly" winning just because you hate the sequels.

Rey is not a Mary Sue that you still refuse to admit despite the reason she is not. And I have point blankly stated that I don't like nor dislike Rey in this topic, I am not attached to her despite your claims otherwise. I have stated I rather talk about the actual problems with her character and not the stupid and wrong Mary Sue claim. She is literally no different than any other Star Wars protagonist in terms of feats just because you can't accept that isn't my fault.

She literally is. Luke is a cocky little shit who is at first disliked by Han and Leia for that matter. He is also indecisive and his naivete is often more of a hindrance than a help. Anakin is pretty much a gary stu except for extreme struggles with anger. He is criticized for it a lot by the fandom. Rey can fly the falcon better than han can use the force better than Luke within days of learning it exists is immediately liked by all. Can drive a boat across a sea that the locals fear to cross despite growing up as a scavenger on a freaking desert planet. Uses mind tricks with no prior training and is able to turn a force probe back. Kills palps on her own without a half monster to save her and actually kill the baddy. The difference is rey is defended because she is a girl and it's apparently sexist to call out a character even more overpowered than Anakin was. Which is in itself sexist. You very clearly are attached to her or you wouldn't constantly excuse this crap. She is very clearly winning she sure as heck isn't getting her ass beat like Luke did notice how she still has all her appendages?

Also Luke is stuffed in a tauntaun because he is passing out from hypothermia and about to die this isn't speculation this happens on screen. Han shoves him inside because he has passed out and is freezing to death.

[Darththeo]

She literally is. Luke is a cocky little shit who is at first disliked by Han and Leia for that matter. He is also indecisive and his naivete is often more of a hindrance than a help. Anakin is pretty much a gary stu except for extreme struggles with anger. He is criticized for it a lot by the fandom. Rey can fly the falcon better than han can use the force better than Luke within days of learning it exists is immediately liked by all. Can drive a boat across a sea that the locals fear to cross despite growing up as a scavenger on a freaking desert planet. Uses mind tricks with no prior training and is able to turn a force probe back. Kills palps on her own without a half monster to save her and actually kill the baddy. The difference is rey is defended because she is a girl and it's apparently sexist to call out a character even more overpowered than Anakin was. Which is in itself sexist. You very clearly are attached to her or you wouldn't constantly excuse this crap. She is very clearly winning she sure as heck isn't getting her ass beat like Luke did notice how she still has all her appendages?

Also Luke is stuffed in a tauntaun because he is passing out from hypothermia and about to die this isn't speculation this happens on screen. Han shoves him inside because he has passed out and is freezing to death.

Disliked by Leia? Dude, Leia literally goes with him because Luke says he is with Obi-wan Kenobi and she gives him a kiss for Luck in the first movie. And as for Han, I wouldn't say Han disliked Luke ... rather just didn't care for him. There is a difference between dislike and no opinion. And if that is dislike, Finn disliked Rey, Han disliked Rey, Luke disliked Rey, etc ... if that is your level of "dislike" then you have no grounds on anything.

Rey literally doesn't fly the Falcon better than Han ... that is pure head canon bull. You could argue she flew it as well as Lando but even that is a stretch. Stop assuming improvement in technology mean shit.

The only thing she did with the Force was a mind trick, which again your head canon states is difficult. She also let the Force guide her hands ... like Luke did with the remote in Episode IV.

So she had to get an arm cut off in order for you to say anything? That is a pretty bull level.

Again, unless it actually happened ... it is speculation on what would have happened. Seriously, I don't know why I have to also give you an English lesson here. We don't know if Luke was going to die, we can speculate based on evidence he would have. For all we know, the Snow covered him and could have insulated him before he died or the Force could have kept him alive. Saying he would die is speculation on a What If? We can also speculated that if Finn hadn't come to save Rey she would have been caught .. it is speculation period.

And no, she isn't a Mary Sue just because you want to call her that. She is not that overpowered if you have dealt with Star Wars beyond the movies ... which at this point, it is pretty clear you haven't. Or if you have, you have chosen to ignore it. You reasons for calling Rey a Mary Sue are beyond hypocritical at this point.

[Xeenith]

I don't understand why people are still trying to out argument darthteo about Rey, he clearly has his head ass deep in her camp and nothing you say will ever make his change his mind.

just look how many pages this "debate" has been going on for ? several dozens at least, result = none, discussion still at the 0 point made.

the ONLY way Rey can be as strong as she, and develop her abilities this fast, would have been if the title of TFA was literal and she was an avatar of the Force that understand it's power automaticly, because she would have been the Force made flesh.

here she may now be the grand daughter of old Palp, but Anakin was the Chosen One™ and got beat way more, Luke is his son and fail a lot, so blood, and Force affinity has nothing to do with the power of someone using the Force, only potential power.

but I know I'm talking to a wall so... yeah

[Darththeo]

I don't understand why people are still trying to out argument darthteo about Rey, he clearly has his head ass deep in her camp and nothing you say will ever make his change his mind.

just look how many pages this "debate" has been going on for ? several dozens at least, result = none, discussion still at the 0 point made.

the ONLY way Rey can be as strong as she, and develop her abilities this fast, would have been if the title of TFA was literal and she was an avatar of the Force that understand it's power automaticly, because she would have been the Force made flesh.

here she may now be the grand daughter of old Palp, but Anakin was the Chosen One™ and got beat way more, Luke is his son and fail a lot, so blood, and Force affinity has nothing to do with the power of someone using the Force, only potential power.

but I know I'm talking to a wall so... yeah

One, spell my user name right. It is literally right in front of you.

Two, again, I have stated I neither like nor dislike Rey, just because I do not accept the bullshit argument "She is a Mary Sue" doesn't mean a like her. But given people think that is a valid argument, I am not surprised they also can't seem to wrap their heads around it.

Rey has zero or worse character growth (not saying Luke had a ton, but Rey has less). Rey's backstory makes zero logical sense in lore ... why would Palpatine's son hid Palpatine's granddaughter on a world where Palpatine had a death weapon? I rather talk about the actual problems with Rey rather than the crap "She's a Mary Sue." I have made this clear in this topic.

But what do I know? I have wasted my time talking to the actual wall in this discussion.

This is how the argument has gone.
Mary Suer: Rey is a Mary Sue because X. Y and Z.
Anti-Mary Suer: Well, that is explained A, B and C.
MS: I don't care about your head canon!
AMS: It's not head canon, it been established in lore and is explainable in the movies themselves.
MS: I don't care.

And yet my side is the wall ... yeah sure, keep dreaming you have an actual argument here.

[Xeenith]

I don't see anywhere on all those page where you don't present yourself as anything less than "Rey shining knight"
you seems to contradict everyone, and yet only when I make a litle attack on you directly do you finally put a real argument ?

then why didn't you present yourself like this from the start ?
because despite you and "rey is mary sue" people, you say the same thing, just not using the same word... do you guys need a translator or something?

dozens of page of "yes" "no" YES!!" "NO NO NO" "yes lalalalala don't hear you lalalala"
it can continue like this for a while you know ?

[Darththeo]

I don't see anywhere on all those page where you don't present yourself as anything less than "Rey shining knight"
you seems to contradict everyone, and yet only when I make a litle attack on you directly do you finally put a real argument ?

then why didn't you present yourself like this from the start ?
because despite you and "rey is mary sue" people, you say the same thing, just not using the same word... do you guys need a translator or something?

dozens of page of "yes" "no" YES!!" "NO NO NO" "yes lalalalala don't hear you lalalala"
it can continue like this for a while you know ?

I have numerous times stated that I have problems with the sequel Trilogy and Rey ... just because you didn't read those isn't my fault. I have stated point blank that I want to talk about the actual problems with Rey, you have literally no excuse for lying or being lazy at this point. I have stated how I disliked in TLJ Rey went from "SCREW KYLO!" to "Screw Kylo " with little explanation.

And yes, you are right how the argument is going because you are the one going "Yes, she is a Mary Sue" and I am the one saying no. So thanks for admitting you haven't heard my argument and have been plugging your ears, very nice of you to for once in this topic being honest.

[Fayolynn]

This is how the argument has gone.
Mary Suer: Rey is a Mary Sue because X. Y and Z.
Anti-Mary Suer: Well, that is explained A, B and C.
MS: I don't care about your head canon!
AMS: It's not head canon, it been established in lore and is explainable in the movies themselves.
MS: I don't care.

Nice generalization there, I can do it too.

Mary Suer: Rey is a Mary Sue because X. Y and Z.
Anti-Mary Suer: Well, if she is one then so is character A, B, and C.
MS: Those characters aren't because of Q, R, and S
AMS: Nuh uh!
MS: ...

Or...

Mary Suer: Rey is a Mary Sue because X. Y and Z.
Anti-Mary Suer: You only say that because you are sexist/misogynist
MS: ...

Generalizations really aren't helpful.

And yet my side is the wall ... yeah sure, keep dreaming you have an actual argument here.

You are because you stated...

just because I do not accept the bullshit argument "She is a Mary Sue"

and

I rather talk about the actual problems with Rey rather than the crap "She's a Mary Sue." I have made this clear in this topic.

You are literally saying that your mind is already made up about the topic and would rather talk about the "actual problems". That is the definition of being a wall.

Note: I am not saying the other side is any better. I'm just saying you can't make the claim that you aren't being a wall.

[Darththeo]

You are literally saying that your mind is already made up about the topic and would rather talk about the "actual problems". That is the definition of being a wall.

Note: I am not saying the other side is any better. I'm just saying you can't make the claim that you aren't being a wall.

Being tired with a bad argument people are repeating doesn't make me a wall. Again, the people pointing out other characters are "Mary Sues" aren't because those characters are Mary Sues but is done to show that the Mary Sue people are being inconsistent with their logic when applying to the characters.

Every "Mary Sue" argument is extremely flawed.

She beat Kylo in TFA.
- Yeah, so what? He was pushing her back, was injured and had zero intent to kill her. She tapped into the Force and let it guide her blow. These same people also claim Luke didn't beat Vader because Luke had to tap into the dark side of the Force and therefor lost. The logic is inconsistent. Lightsabers are not magical weapons, though they do fit that trope.

She flies the Falcon better than Han did!
- One this is literally false given Solo: A Star Wars Story and is shown to more be because of updated technology than her actually flying better. It is at least clear to me, Han flew the Falcon better than Rey did. And even if she did, the Falcon has a literal pilot droid as its nav computer. Not an astromech, a droid specially made to be the pilot of the ship. So the Falcon can be viewed to literally always have a co-pilot.

She fixed the Falcon better than Han!
- This one is just a what for me here. She bypassed the compressor ... she was a junker. It makes perfect sense that she knew how to do that and it didn't "fix" the Falcon technically speaking ... it was bypassing an addon to it. This is supported by Han's line earlier "Some moof milker put a compressor on ..." ... his phrases suggests it wasn't there originally.

If I seem like a wall is because I get tired of people throwing the same shitty arguments at me because they think because they accept it everyone should unless they are a blind fanboy.

I have stated numerous times that my arguments here is to stop the bad argument. Rey isn't a Mary Sue just because people want to call her that. They have no argument. I am not a wall because I don't accept bad arguments.

[Volatilis]

Being tired with a bad argument people are repeating doesn't make me a wall. Again, the people pointing out other characters are "Mary Sues" aren't because those characters are Mary Sues but is done to show that the Mary Sue people are being inconsistent with their logic when applying to the characters.

Every "Mary Sue" argument is extremely flawed.

She beat Kylo in TFA.
- Yeah, so what? He was pushing her back, was injured and had zero intent to kill her. She tapped into the Force and let it guide her blow. These same people also claim Luke didn't beat Vader because Luke had to tap into the dark side of the Force and therefor lost. The logic is inconsistent. Lightsabers are not magical weapons, though they do fit that trope.

She flies the Falcon better than Han did!
- One this is literally false given Solo: A Star Wars Story and is shown to more be because of updated technology than her actually flying better. It is at least clear to me, Han flew the Falcon better than Rey did. And even if she did, the Falcon has a literal pilot droid as its nav computer. Not an astromech, a droid specially made to be the pilot of the ship. So the Falcon can be viewed to literally always have a co-pilot.

She fixed the Falcon better than Han!
- This one is just a what for me here. She bypassed the compressor ... she was a junker. It makes perfect sense that she knew how to do that and it didn't "fix" the Falcon technically speaking ... it was bypassing an addon to it. This is supported by Han's line earlier "Some moof milker put a compressor on ..." ... his phrases suggests it wasn't there originally.

If I seem like a wall is because I get tired of people throwing the same shitty arguments at me because they think because they accept it everyone should unless they are a blind fanboy.

I have stated numerous times that my arguments here is to stop the bad argument. Rey isn't a Mary Sue just because people want to call her that. They have no argument. I am not a wall because I don't accept bad arguments.

And what would you say to the fact that everyone loves Rey in the movies instantly except one food portions alien at the very start of TFA.

Han solo a grumpy character falls in love with her instantly because shes hot i suppose?

[Darththeo]

And what would you say to the fact that everyone loves Rey in the movies instantly except one food portions alien at the very start of TFA.

Han solo a grumpy character falls in love with her instantly because shes hot i suppose?

That that is another outright lie/false statement:

Finn lied to Rey and only went with her to save his own ass.
Han didn't trust Rey and wanted to get rid of her until after she showed that she could fix the Falcon. He helped her more out of his love for Leia than anything about Rey.
Luke literally tossed the lightsaber and attempted to ignore her.

Maz was curious about who she was, but that doesn't mean like nor dislike. You have a point with Poe who had heard Finn talk about Rey and Poe has reason to trust Finn's judgment. BB-8 who is a droid who Rey had saved from another junker or just alien on the planet (reasonable for BB to trust her). And Leia who is, well, Leia. We don't see her interact with R2 very much and her interactions with C3PO are exclusive to RoS which is a year after TLJ and she had trained with Leia who at that point owned C3PO.

If we add background characters, well there were a lot of people who disliked Rey ... including the caretakers on Ahch-to. When people tell me that "Rey is instantly liked by everyone!" I wonder if they saw the same movie as I did, it is pretty clearly not the case.

So character who liked Rey on first meeting: Leia, Poe, Maz, and BB-8.
Character status unknown/unclear: R2, 3PO, Rose, and Chewie
Characters that disliked Rey: Han, Luke, and Finn (with Luke being clear in his dislike of her.)