View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    121 19.30%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    95 15.15%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    153 24.40%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    167 26.63%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.51%
  1. #5901
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Luke used the mind trick on Bib Fortuna, the guy that brought him to Jabba. The mind trick does fail a lot, but the reason this is built into the ability is because it would make it too easy for Jedi to get whatever they want. Anyway, since only trained Jedi use it and it doesn't work very often, most people believe it is a higher level skill that requires training. And the Jedi have always had the ability to use the force, which is an external source of power, but it required a lot of training.



    Reading someone's mind and controlling it are two different things. Being able to do one doesn't mean you can do the other or lead to thinking you can do the other. If that was the reason she decided to discover the mind trick, it should be explained in the movie and it isn't. You can just tell or show someone the force exists and expect them to be able to do everything the force makes possible without training. As far as the light saber fight, it shouldn't have even been close, lucky hit or not. They made Rey too powerful too quickly without any explanation and there is no good way to explain it. Even "she was to grand-daughter of the emperor" doesn't mean anything besides potential to use the force. Luke was Darth Vader's son and he didn't discover sophisticated force abilities out of nowhere.
    Most people believe is not evidence. Most people can be wrong. Also, Luke didn't have that much training besides self training. So that alone seems to suggest it is not that advanced of a technique. Luke at most had months of training with Yoda, and all we saw was physical training and meditation.

    Also, again, it is called Mind Trick ... not mind control. You are influencing their actions, not really controlling them. This is supported by Obi-wan's line in ANH. He doesn't say that the Force controls weak minded people. And Kylo's technique is a little more than just simply mind reading, you are invading the person's memories.

    It wasn't close, she was losing until that hit. Kylo was driving her back. Kylo had no intent to kill. Kylo was severally injured having taking a bowcaster hit and was hit by the lightsaber from Finn. Again, it was a lucky hit ... that's it. Rey was fighting for her life, Kylo wanted to turn her. The Novelization suggests Kylo was going to stand up if the chasm hadn't opened up. You don't get to ignore facts to claim "Rey is too powerful!"

    Look at Maul vs Qui-Gon and Obi-wan. Qui-Gon was a fully trained Jedi Master on the level of Council Member (if we take Obi-wan's line as facially valid). Obi-wan was trained to fight against blasters, not sabers (after all it was 1000 years since the Sith, you weren't going to find many non-Jedi trained). Maul was trained to hunt and kill Jedi, his technique was specifically designed to overpower Jedi. Maul defeats Qui-Gon with relative ease, knocks Obi-wan into a pit, etc ... the reason Obi-wan wins is because he has to to survive until the OT, but everything shows Maul should have won the fight.

    Using the same logic as "Rey is too powerful because she beat Kylo", I can say "Obi-wan's too powerful as a Jedi Padawan, he fights better than a Jedi Master!" Would anyone take that argument seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    But Luke doesn't show any special characteristics for nearly the entire original trilogy.
    It the OT, Luke is the "Child of Destiny" ... which is literally a special quality. He is literally "A New Hope". Mary Sue's are not required to be the best anything. Mary Sue's require actions that would be unreasonable in the lore of the respective universe.

    For example, if a Jedi had a power that their skin can deflect lightsaber blades ... but they are also still human. Would be a trait of a Mary Sue, even if they aren't the best at any thing else. It is unreasonable to have such a power. If they trained faster than anyone else, say became a Master at age 10 ... that would be a Mary Sue because we don't see any other fully trained Jedi so young, while training can be fast (a few years), that tends to only get someone to Knighthood, not Master.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  2. #5902

    hilarious........
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  3. #5903
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The smart descision is actually to wait for reviews before buying something. Only an idiot goes into the shop and buys the first item with the biggest advertisment, that is pretty much the definition of sheeple. Though I'm sure your lame attempt at an insult over 4 months after he made the post and 2 weeks after the movie came out will carry alot of weight.

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    Afaik he is supposed to be the Palpatine that was the emperor. The part you are supposed to ignore is how he survived being disintegrated in the reactor core.

    The only thing Abrams understands less than "space" is highschool physics and byond in general.
    You're trying to compare apples to oranges, and that just doesn't work, Joe.

  4. #5904
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    That's opinion but the TPM and AotC are ass as SW and regular movies
    They're consistent...have a coherent plot...follow lore...don't defecate all over the movies before them...treat more than one character like they actually mean something...don't completely destroy great characters....don't subvert expectations.

    The Disney Trilogy doesn't have any of that...they're just 3 cluster fucks that go their own ways, make no sense, and made the other two trilogies pointless.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  5. #5905
    For all their flaws, the prequels actually do the best job at telling one story in three parts. The OT I think is all around better than the prequels, but the prequels lack the tug of war between JJ and RJ that plagues the sequel trilogy and lack the 'make it up as we go along' feeling of the OT. (Vader being Luke's father was handled very well in Empire but it's clear this wasn't planned from the start, and you ahve Leia's origins making a couple prior scenes awkward in retrospect that was used to plug up a plot hook from Empire they weren't going their original route with anymore.)

    The flaw of the sequels is lack of a coherent vision through the whole thing.

  6. #5906
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Sorry, I am not bothering to read beyond this. She is not a Mary Sue ... if you don't understand the term, don't use it. I will not have this dumb argument where all you are going to do is just call her a Mary Sue, ignore any explanation and repeat yourself thinking you are making an argument.

    If you want to see how I already deal with the rest of your "original" points ... I have addressed them in this topic already as has several other people.
    You obviously don't know what a Mary Sure is

    "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Typically, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment."

    Rey is idealized and virtually perfect...she doesn't need any training to do things flawlessly...she is apparently the chosen one, throwing away Lucas' established lore of Anakin being such...that's right, she is so fucking Mary Sue Disney defies canon to make her the Chosen One.

    She is wish fulfillment for Kathleen Kennedy...because you know what Star Wars is? Her own fan fiction! You know what Kathleen Kennedy is? A white brunette woman? You know what every Star Wars leading woman has been? A pretty little white brunette Brit...and who has ties to the British to the point she was awarded a honorary title? KK!



    So yes, stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LALALALALALALA" all you want, Rey is still the personification of a Mary Sue!
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  7. #5907
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SszgJoKWg0c
    hilarious........
    Not sure if this is real. Kinda weird to only hear women shouting. Well maybe disney really managed to get get that female audience (before alienating them again with IX)..
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  8. #5908
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Seems pretty clear cut to me... If a female being called a "mary sue" isn't sexist than what is the male equivalent? Why is it never used as an insult toward male characters? It doesn't even fit with Rey, because a Mary Sue has no flaws when it is clear Rey as a protagonist has flaws. I have yet to hear anyone call Super-Man a Mary Sue. Just saying.

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    Amazing how you try and spin that as a bad thing, when it's clear the franchise has been extremely successful. From their Animated shows, Disney+, and Films all making money hand over fist.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/30/six-...nvestment.html
    Gary Stu it was used towards Anakin consistently but he isn't half as bad as Rey. In non star wars media Superman is a big one who is actively debated.

  9. #5909
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post

    I don't think I'm missing much here. I'm not sure how any of that equates to Mary Sue, or who in their right mind would debate those being qualities of a Mary Sue.
    If we use your absurdly disingenuous list, then no one would debate whether he is a Mary Sue or not. We could cherry pick all day for both characters and have already for pages of this thread.

    Wedge is the best pilot... that's hilarious. You get that from what in the film exactly? That time he got shot and had to go home? I loved the X-Wing books but we're not talking about the EU here. That point even undermines your own argument, if he was the best, why exactly did command have Luke, the least experienced pilot on the battlefield, leading their little formation? Oh because he used to shoot varmints from his crop duster, okay.

  10. #5910
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    Good analysis.

    Organa would have made so much more sense I must agree.

  11. #5911
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    It's not about liking their personalities or not. It's that the personalities dont make sense.
    Luke wouldn't throw a lightsaber above his head as if it was a piece of garbage, Luke would inquire about Han Solo upon learning of his death, Luke wouldn't pre-emptively strike his nephew because he felt some bad voodoo around him.
    Maybe the Luke at the end of ROTJ wouldn't do those things.

    But 30 years passed between the two films. 30 years we didn't see, and that you have literally no grounds upon which to assess who Luke would have become. And as for Luke failing and hiding away... that was established as something that had happened in Episode 7.

    Also, he did inquire about Han Solo's death. He literally asks "Where's Han?" Maybe it would have been nice for them to show that interaction. (See, NOW we've made an actual observation about the plot as it pertains to character. See how that works?) But he DID do it.

    Funny you'd mention Jar Jar because TLJ highlight why character like him are necessary : They allow the writer to condense the visual gag on one, or few characters and free the other characters of such constraints.
    Are you really going to try and defend Jar Jar?

    Let's address Jar Jar Binks and why he's bad.

    Jar Jar has no dignity. The audience does not care about him. None of his comedy is integral to the plot and, because the movie is not a comedy, is distracting. He has no characterization beyond being a clumsy oaf. Every time it cuts away to him capering and cavorting, it's unrelated nonsense of an ultimately pointless character. To paraphrase Krusty the Clown; "the pie-in-the-face gag's only funny if the sap's got dignity!"

    C3PO is funny because he has dignity but often comes off as clueless. R2D2 is funny because he's cute. Han is funny because he's a smooth-talker. Chewbacca is funny because he's a giant walking carpet that's super powerful and speaks gibberish. Etc, etc. But we LIKE all of those characters. They do important things. Sometimes they're doing them while they're being funny. When they do Funny things, it adds levity to the movies. And no, Star Wars has never been a "serious" franchise. It's a film series about space wizards FFS.

    Jar Jar does not contribute to the films at all. He has no dignity or ulterior role. He's nothing but a personified distraction. And seeing as the prequels were way more dour than the original three or the sequels, he stands out even more.

    In TLJ, every single character is a Jar jar, constantly used as props to make epic funny moment, starting with luke and his lightsaber throw of course, then it's Rey, the porgs, Poe dameron and it never end.
    And now you're complaining about Comical asides in Star Wars films? Movies that have stormtroopers bonking their heads on low beams, "I'm fine, how are you"s, "laserbrain" being used as an insult, and Ewoks hitting themselves in the faces with bolas? And those are all from the original trilogy.

    TLJ is also the least competently plotted movie of the entire mainline franchise,
    Uh huh and what was the plot of the phantom menace? Or attack of the clones? You going to extol the virtues of those to me? Those movies are made entirely of side quests all leading to a conclusion we already know whilst simultaneously being under and over written.

    and yes, romcom drama and making up space physics every minutes to fit a plot does weight on the story over time, and it weight on the quality of the movie as a whole, even if it somehow doesnt weight on you.
    See, here... you're not pointing out how any specific decision weighs the film down, or narratively weakens it. You're picking on unrelated nonsense like the aformentioned made up space physics to attempt to objectively quantify your subjective dislike of the film.

    You can dislike the film because you thought Luke should have been more serious and bad ass and you don't like Rey and Holdo shouldn't have been a woman an blah blah blah other bullshit I've heard a billion times already. Fine. But don't go pretending that your analysis of the film extends anywhere beyond a dislike of the trappings of the movie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It's not competently plotted in the slightest there is a good half hour that could be taken out without losing anything. The central plot is essentially a low speed car chase such magic much drama. Whoever wrote Holdo obviously did zero research into the military. No person competent enough to be promoted to a command position would just expect everyone to follow them to their deaths with no clue what is going on. The sun will come back or w/e is one of the stupidest lines I've ever seen.
    Luke, Rey, and Kylo are the main plot of the film, for onesies.

    For twosies... Holdo thought there was a spy in the ship. No one else DID need to know about their plan. It would have worked out absolutely fine, and was going to, UNTIL an unscrupulous person learned of their plans, via the actions of Poe, Finn and Rose. Then their plans were ruined and things went to shit.

    The entirety of the rebellion is on the run for their lives and you are refusing to share what the hell you are going to do with one of the few people who is respected enough to get others to question you. That doesn't make sense nobody with that kind of thinking would be promoted to a command position. Also it absolutely has a JarJar her name is Rose and her entire existence and plot related to it could be cut with losing nothing.
    What is people's problem with Rose? She's just tagging along with the rest of them, following Poe's plan.

    In terms of being a star wars movie it actively detracts from the achievements in the OT by making them no matter. It's a bad film without delving into the other stuff.
    Was that the fault of TLJ, though?

    Which film basically brought the Empire Back? TFA.

    Which film basically destroyed the New Republic that would have been founded after Episode 6? TFA.

    Which film stuck Luke out on some island somewhere, meaning that yes, he did ignore the rise of the First Order? TFA.

    Which film basically stuck all the heroes into an ersatz rebellion called the resistance? TFA.

    All of those plot elements were set up in TFA. I'd argue that TLJ actually tried to change those plot trappings. By the end of TLJ, Kylo Ren isn't just second in command to some wannabe emperor; he's taken his destiny into his own hands. Luke finds a way to actually BE a Legendary Hero capable of inhuman feats, able to inspire the galaxy. Rey isn't just some chain in line of pre-ordained force gods; she's her own person, risen from nothing, with a future she can dictate. Obviously, those questions asked of the characters were a bit too heady for JJ to rectify with the direction he had already planned for Episode 9. Which is why 9 was a jumbled mess that featured the Emperor for some Reason.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2020-01-03 at 09:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  12. #5912
    Over 9000! Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    If we use your absurdly disingenuous list, then no one would debate whether he is a Mary Sue or not. .
    Seems pretty accurate to me, Luke was a rly shit jedi and only won one against Vader when he almost went to the dark side.

    almost anything he did he fail, his control of the force is weak before, just him struggle to get the saber from the ice show h is not a mary sue, a mary sue would get that easy and kill the monster

  13. #5913
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Gary Stu it was used towards Anakin consistently but he isn't half as bad as Rey. In non star wars media Superman is a big one who is actively debated.
    It most certainly never heard it used towards Anakin, because "he was the chosen one". I know the outrage around the prequels and they were just as demonstration overblown as the sequels. I have never heard any substation criticism of any male fiction character called a Gary-Stu. It does sound just as dumb as Mary-Sue and someone look to critique a character when they've never even written a book. People want to hold their version of Star Wars they like to a lower standard than that of the ones they don't like. It is rose colored glasses as all of the trilogy have plot holes, weren't thoughtfully planned out, and had canonical issues that had to be continually expanded upon.

    People can cherry pick whatever figures they wants, but stock holders, and board at Disney only care about the money. Star Wars is printing Billions of Dollars and with the latest Trilogy,Disney+. Theme Park, and even the latest game was a success right from the start. Disney has indoctrinated a whole new generation of fans ages 8-16 as was always planned with all Star Wars since the original.
    Last edited by Jettisawn; 2020-01-03 at 11:02 PM.
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  14. #5914
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    It the OT, Luke is the "Child of Destiny" ... which is literally a special quality. He is literally "A New Hope". Mary Sue's are not required to be the best anything. Mary Sue's require actions that would be unreasonable in the lore of the respective universe.

    For example, if a Jedi had a power that their skin can deflect lightsaber blades ... but they are also still human. Would be a trait of a Mary Sue, even if they aren't the best at any thing else. It is unreasonable to have such a power. If they trained faster than anyone else, say became a Master at age 10 ... that would be a Mary Sue because we don't see any other fully trained Jedi so young, while training can be fast (a few years), that tends to only get someone to Knighthood, not Master.
    OK, so I showed where Luke was a side kick, was always losing and getting help to do anything, and you responded that with "He's a Mary Sue because he's the Child of Destiny" ? You didn't show anything unreasonable, which you list as the requirement, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  15. #5915
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    You obviously don't know what a Mary Sure is

    "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Typically, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment."

    Rey is idealized and virtually perfect...she doesn't need any training to do things flawlessly...she is apparently the chosen one, throwing away Lucas' established lore of Anakin being such...that's right, she is so fucking Mary Sue Disney defies canon to make her the Chosen One.

    She is wish fulfillment for Kathleen Kennedy...because you know what Star Wars is? Her own fan fiction! You know what Kathleen Kennedy is? A white brunette woman? You know what every Star Wars leading woman has been? A pretty little white brunette Brit...and who has ties to the British to the point she was awarded a honorary title? KK!



    So yes, stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LALALALALALALA" all you want, Rey is still the personification of a Mary Sue!
    So, your argument is Rey is a Mary Sue because Rey is a Mary Sue because you feel she is one ... and I am the one going LALALALALALA and sticking fingers in my ear?

    She is not perfect, therefor you are lying. If that is what you choose to apply logic ... guess what? Luke Skywalker (Luke S) is a wishfulment of George Lucas ... which means Star Wars protagonists have always Mary Sues thus the complaint of Rey being a Mary Sue is garbage.

    You do know that both Legends and Canon have implied that the Chosen one is garbage right? Seriously, you don't get to say something violates Lore when it is essentially already debated in Lore. In Legends, Anakin didn't bring an end to the Sith ... at all. There were always Sith around, Palpatine returned, etc ... it was clear in Legends, the Chosen One was merely an in universe LEGEND.

    Also, in Disney Canon, Obi-wan felt Luke was the Chosen One ... not Anakin. Yoda felt it was Leia ... not Luke or Anakin. Seriously, it is suggested strongly in all sources the chosen one is a myth. So no, Rey being the "real" or "next" Chosen one does not violate anything.

    Gee ... a brunette young woman being a Star Wars female lead ... never seen that before ever. It isn't like Leia was a brunette or Padme ... oh wait ... they were.

    Also, Kathleen Kennedy is American, she was born in Berkeley, CA and went to school in California ... why are you calling her "English"? Her mother was from New York State. And her father was born in California too ... why the hell did you post of meme calling her English?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    OK, so I showed where Luke was a side kick, was always losing and getting help to do anything, and you responded that with "He's a Mary Sue because he's the Child of Destiny" ? You didn't show anything unreasonable, which you list as the requirement, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.
    I was more pointing out that the statement "Luke doesn't have a special quality" when he is literally a child of destiny was false. I have no problems with the rest of your argument... I just support using consistent logic. You aren't applying the same logic to Rey as Luke ... you are drawing arbitrary lines and claiming they are significant enough.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-01-03 at 10:16 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  16. #5916
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Snip
    Lol we've found the cuckbear.

    Flaming isn't allowed. Infracted
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2020-01-04 at 12:20 AM.

  17. #5917
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    If we use your absurdly disingenuous list, then no one would debate whether he is a Mary Sue or not. We could cherry pick all day for both characters and have already for pages of this thread.

    Wedge is the best pilot... that's hilarious. You get that from what in the film exactly? That time he got shot and had to go home? I loved the X-Wing books but we're not talking about the EU here. That point even undermines your own argument, if he was the best, why exactly did command have Luke, the least experienced pilot on the battlefield, leading their little formation? Oh because he used to shoot varmints from his crop duster, okay.
    Yes, Wedge bailed out other pilots including Luke, Wedge is the only pilot never to have his ship disabled in any of the movies. I haven't seen anything to show Luke was better than Wedge in the movies. Best pilot doesn't automatically become the commander. That's not true in real life and I haven't seen anywhere in the movies or EU where it's stated as the requirement for command.

    The only reason Luke doesn't get shot down in ANH is because Wedge and Biggs where running interference and taking shots for him, then Han Solo had to come bail Luke out. Wedge takes shot directly from Anakin, and lives to tell the tale. What other pilot can say that?

    How is that possibly "Mary Sue" when other people had to die to help Luke and more other people had to fly in and force ghost in to continue to help him?

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  18. #5918
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yes, Wedge bailed out other pilots including Luke, Wedge is the only pilot never to have his ship disabled in any of the movies. I haven't seen anything to show Luke was better than Wedge in the movies. Best pilot doesn't automatically become the commander. That's not true in real life and I haven't seen anywhere in the movies or EU where it's stated as the requirement for command.

    The only reason Luke doesn't get shot down in ANH is because Wedge and Biggs where running interference and taking shots for him, then Han Solo had to come bail Luke out. Wedge takes shot directly from Anakin, and lives to tell the tale. What other pilot can say that?

    How is that possibly "Mary Sue" when other people had to die to help Luke and more other people had to fly in and force ghost in to continue to help him?
    Literally, Luke .. unless you count R2 as not part of the ship Luke's flying. So I guess it is debatable.

    Also, it isn't that impressive when we know that Vader let Wedge escape.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  19. #5919
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    It's not about liking their personalities or not. It's that the personalities dont make sense.
    Luke wouldn't throw a lightsaber above his head as if it was a piece of garbage, Luke would inquire about Han Solo upon learning of his death, Luke wouldn't pre-emptively strike his nephew because he felt some bad voodoo around him.

    Funny you'd mention Jar Jar because TLJ highlight why character like him are necessary : They allow the writer to condense the visual gag on one, or few characters and free the other characters of such constraints.
    In TLJ, every single character is a Jar jar, constantly used as props to make epic funny moment, starting with luke and his lightsaber throw of course, then it's Rey, the porgs, Poe dameron and it never end.

    TLJ is also the least competently plotted movie of the entire mainline franchise, and yes, romcom drama and making up space physics every minutes to fit a plot does weight on the story over time, and it weight on the quality of the movie as a whole, even if it somehow doesnt weight on you.

    As for TROS I haven't seen yet, and there's no way I'm paying a ticket after that dumpster fire.
    He didn't strike his newphew. He had a brief moment of 'oh crap' sensing his potential for the dark side but then immediately felt ashamed of himself. Was it a bad thing? Sure, but people sometimes act like he was going to actually kill Ben there when...he wasn't.

  20. #5920
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I was more pointing out that the statement "Luke doesn't have a special quality" when he is literally a child of destiny was false. I have no problems with the rest of your argument... I just support using consistent logic. You aren't applying the same logic to Rey as Luke ... you are drawing arbitrary lines and claiming they are significant enough.
    He doesn't have a special quality. You claiming he is "the Child of Destiny" doesn't magically confer any special qualities. Further, he's not the child of destiny.

    Further Furthermore, I never claimed Rey was a Mary Sue. I'm just saying it's beyond ridiculous to claim the failing Luke Skywalker, who always needs help, is a Mary Sue. It's nonsensical. It's also nonsensical to compare Luke's journey to Rey's. She doesn't need help like Luke does. She handily beats the only Jedi Master we know of before she's received any Jedi training, while Luke gets beat by a remote, a garbage monster, a Wampa, an AT-AT gunner, Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor. Whatever Rey tries to do she's successful at. Granted in RoS she shows weakness and needs Kylo to give her his life force.

    Now, how does Luke get out of the jams he's in when he's losing:
    Remote keeps pinging him - Ben has to teach him how to get better
    a garbage monster nearly kills Luke - Luck of the compactor starting up saves him
    getting crushed by a compactor - C3PO & R2 save him.
    a Wampa captures him - Han saves him
    an AT-AT gunner shoots him down - Luke's fighter is destroyed and his gunner dead, but Luke survives this on his own +1 to Luke
    Not able to get his XWing out of the water - he never bests Yoda, but can only finally match him in RoS after he's a force ghost.
    Vader beats him - Lando & Leia (in the Falcon) save him
    Fett is going to shoot Luke: Han accidentally saves him
    the Emperor is killing him - Vader saves him.

    Rey gets into a jam: She figures out how to get out by herself and wins without help (until RoS).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Literally, Luke .. unless you count R2 as not part of the ship Luke's flying. So I guess it is debatable.

    Also, it isn't that impressive when we know that Vader let Wedge escape.
    I'll give you points on the first, I forgot R2 got singed.
    And the Vader only has the option of not chasing Wedge because he couldn't blow him up.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

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