View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    121 19.27%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    95 15.13%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    154 24.52%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    167 26.59%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.49%
  1. #6061
    Quote Originally Posted by Altrec View Post
    Yes, but at the same time if the producer says I want this to happen or this plot/character element to happen it often happens. How it happens doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible idea to begin with. From the little tidbits that have come out and/or been rumored Kathleen interfered a lot. Granted we don't know what that interference was exactly and maybe what she did made it less awful than what it would have been, but I think most peoples money is on her and other execs tinkering that made the movies as bad as they were. Ultimately the blame or praise was always going to be on her as she was the one in charge of the project.
    Well there's all different kinds of studio interference. They fired the directors of Solo for one. But I haven't heard much about them dictating plot points or character beats directly, that's not the normal way things work.

    Honestly I'm not encouraging people to harass Rian Johnson more, who I think is a good director even if I didn't like his Star Wars film overall, but as far as I can tell the buck stops there for Last Jedi. I assume the same is true of Rise of Skywalker and Abrams, he certainly seems to be in charge of his films, but we're all guessing.

    I feel like it's weird to blame the producers in the absence of evidence. Nobody's shaking their fist at Ivan Reitman for Ghostbusters 2016. Or... Charles Roven...? Whoever that is, for Batman v Superman. Or a whole bunch of people I've never heard of for the Bay Transformers films. For some reason everyone likes to dump on Kathleen Kennedy for Star Wars though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I personally don't like it because it is an all too convenient back door out of problems.
    True I suppose, but it's not like writers don't have plenty of nonsense at their disposal already in the Star Wars universe.
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  2. #6062
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    True I suppose, but it's not like writers don't have plenty of nonsense at their disposal already in the Star Wars universe.
    Agreed. The force already is conveniently used or not used based on what the plot requires. Adding more to that though is something I would love for them to be careful with.
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  3. #6063
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    And imo, force healing can F right off. I hate that it has been introduced.


    No problem with introducing Force Healing, it makes as much sense as the Force itself anyway. But when you introduce something as "possible" in a universe, you have to consider... it always was and will always be. So it can make tons of past stuff irrelevant (because you could have done X in previous movie) and you have to consider that in future stuff as well (that's why all Sci-Fi movies with Teleport technology sucks : you always have to pull excuse out of your ass to explain why it can't work in THAT situation).

    They also completely missed the point with the Holdo maneuver. It was cool, it was the only worth cinematic moment from The Last Jedi, but we never get to understand why it was never used before or after. That's even more pathetic when one of the side characters in Rise of Skywalker proposes to use this tactic against the conveniently-aligned enemy forces, which makes sense, and is immediately denied with an explanation like "no, because no".

  4. #6064
    Did you all hear the latest rumor. That a good portion of the 4 and 5 star ratings on rotten tomatoes is fake....

    Apperently a good chuck of them where posted after eachother. WIth the same grammar and chuncks of them start the same words like:


    A fitting end to the ( then several things where said here)

    several of the sentences where found.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjFBK10BDhs&t=614s
    BFA - Barf for Alliance
    Horde you sad or angry that your faction is a bunch of mass murdering, cowards , without honor bad guys??
    The alliance is there for you

  5. #6065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post


    No problem with introducing Force Healing, it makes as much sense as the Force itself anyway. But when you introduce something as "possible" in a universe, you have to consider... it always was and will always be. So it can make tons of past stuff irrelevant (because you could have done X in previous movie) and you have to consider that in future stuff as well (that's why all Sci-Fi movies with Teleport technology sucks : you always have to pull excuse out of your ass to explain why it can't work in THAT situation).

    They also completely missed the point with the Holdo maneuver. It was cool, it was the only worth cinematic moment from The Last Jedi, but we never get to understand why it was never used before or after. That's even more pathetic when one of the side characters in Rise of Skywalker proposes to use this tactic against the conveniently-aligned enemy forces, which makes sense, and is immediately denied with an explanation like "no, because no".
    Absolutely agreed. Using the prequels again, we had Palpatine lure Anakin to the darkside with promises of bringing people back to life. It was supposed to only have been experimented with by Plaguis, an extremely powerful sith lord. No Jedi had been known to use this ability as per the movies. Then suddenly, we get 3 counts of it being used with no training in this ability, or even knowledge of it being a thing by the people who used it. Maybe Kylo could have known of it through his studies, but Rey and Baby Yoda would have had no knowledge of this.

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    I sorta wish Episode 8 could be rewritten as a proper precursor to the events of episode 9. Perhaps an episode 8.5 would have even done the trick.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

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  6. #6066
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Absolutely agreed. Using the prequels again, we had Palpatine lure Anakin to the darkside with promises of bringing people back to life. It was supposed to only have been experimented with by Plaguis, an extremely powerful sith lord. No Jedi had been known to use this ability as per the movies. Then suddenly, we get 3 counts of it being used with no training in this ability, or even knowledge of it being a thing by the people who used it. Maybe Kylo could have known of it through his studies, but Rey and Baby Yoda would have had no knowledge of this.
    Yeah, and someone could say, "Ok, but it's just that no one ever tried before, yeah!" but really, it's nuts to think that over thousands and thousands of years of force-users no one ever said, "Shit, I can do magic and someone I love is dying, gotta be something I can figure out." even if it was just desperation.

    It's just one of those things that completely turns the setting on its head.

  7. #6067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, and someone could say, "Ok, but it's just that no one ever tried before, yeah!" but really, it's nuts to think that over thousands and thousands of years of force-users no one ever said, "Shit, I can do magic and someone I love is dying, gotta be something I can figure out." even if it was just desperation.

    It's just one of those things that completely turns the setting on its head.
    Totally lol. Introducing it this late in the game puts some pretty significant holes in previous entries in the series.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  8. #6068
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Well there's all different kinds of studio interference. They fired the directors of Solo for one. But I haven't heard much about them dictating plot points or character beats directly, that's not the normal way things work.

    Honestly I'm not encouraging people to harass Rian Johnson more, who I think is a good director even if I didn't like his Star Wars film overall, but as far as I can tell the buck stops there for Last Jedi. I assume the same is true of Rise of Skywalker and Abrams, he certainly seems to be in charge of his films, but we're all guessing.
    Well I certainly put most of the blame on Rian Johnson, but that is also why Kathleen deserves some of the blame for letting him do what he did. They were either on the same page with the stupid decisions or she completely failed at doing her job. As for JJ Again the rumors going around is that the released version of the TROS is not his cut of the film or the one he thought was going to be released. We will probably never know the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I feel like it's weird to blame the producers in the absence of evidence. Nobody's shaking their fist at Ivan Reitman for Ghostbusters 2016. Or... Charles Roven...? Whoever that is, for Batman v Superman. Or a whole bunch of people I've never heard of for the Bay Transformers films. For some reason everyone likes to dump on Kathleen Kennedy for Star Wars though.
    I suspect that is because most of the producers of those films kept a lower profile than Kathleen who made herself a bit a of a target(The bolded for additional emphasis on my point). Plus Bay also helps produce a lot of his movies so he is always going to get blame given his involvement from top to bottom.

  9. #6069
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    If it had been done by just Baby Yoda in the context of how and where he does it and considering what he seems to be, I'm fine with it.

    Rey on the other hand just does it because she suddenly knows how to do it. Ben suddenly knows too.. Okay..

    Why did Ben die after doing it? why didn't Rey? Why didn't Reys body dissapear when she died but Bens did?

  10. #6070
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post


    No problem with introducing Force Healing, it makes as much sense as the Force itself anyway. But when you introduce something as "possible" in a universe, you have to consider... it always was and will always be. So it can make tons of past stuff irrelevant (because you could have done X in previous movie) and you have to consider that in future stuff as well (that's why all Sci-Fi movies with Teleport technology sucks : you always have to pull excuse out of your ass to explain why it can't work in THAT situation).

    They also completely missed the point with the Holdo maneuver. It was cool, it was the only worth cinematic moment from The Last Jedi, but we never get to understand why it was never used before or after. That's even more pathetic when one of the side characters in Rise of Skywalker proposes to use this tactic against the conveniently-aligned enemy forces, which makes sense, and is immediately denied with an explanation like "no, because no".
    Force heal, one of the few things I didn't like in the Mandalorian..n stop the fire, its not baby jesus ffs...better to have saved carl weathers some other way, n baby thrown with the force some medium-sized object at the pyro-stormtrooper, or something else..

  11. #6071
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Absolutely agreed. Using the prequels again, we had Palpatine lure Anakin to the darkside with promises of bringing people back to life. It was supposed to only have been experimented with by Plaguis, an extremely powerful sith lord. No Jedi had been known to use this ability as per the movies. Then suddenly, we get 3 counts of it being used with no training in this ability, or even knowledge of it being a thing by the people who used it. Maybe Kylo could have known of it through his studies, but Rey and Baby Yoda would have had no knowledge of this.

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    I sorta wish Episode 8 could be rewritten as a proper precursor to the events of episode 9. Perhaps an episode 8.5 would have even done the trick.
    While baby yoda knowing it is questionable Rey atleaat has old republic books and kylo and her are “two as one” so he could just know what ability’s she knows.

    Given that there is a ton of lost knowledge from old republic to prequels republic it makes sense that the Jedi order of the prequels wouldn’t know of every force ability but Rey could have learned it from the books.

    Baby yoda on the other hand is up in the air on why he’d know it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, and someone could say, "Ok, but it's just that no one ever tried before, yeah!" but really, it's nuts to think that over thousands and thousands of years of force-users no one ever said, "Shit, I can do magic and someone I love is dying, gotta be something I can figure out." even if it was just desperation.

    It's just one of those things that completely turns the setting on its head.
    The Jedi order lost a ton of knowledge over time which is why they thought the sith were a myth or that there can only be two instead of the massive sith order of the old republic. The most reasonable explanation is that force healing is something that was lost to the Jedi and because the Jedi are anti attachment they never relearned it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    If it had been done by just Baby Yoda in the context of how and where he does it and considering what he seems to be, I'm fine with it.

    Rey on the other hand just does it because she suddenly knows how to do it. Ben suddenly knows too.. Okay..

    Why did Ben die after doing it? why didn't Rey? Why didn't Reys body dissapear when she died but Bens did?

    Rey likely learned it from the old republic books.

    Kylo likely learned it from the connection to Rey.

    It’s likely Rey didn’t die but she was on the edge of death when kylo heals her.

    Kylo likely gave all of his life force to Heal Rey and this made his body disappear for what ever reason and took Leia’s with it for some reason who knows.

  12. #6072
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    If it had been done by just Baby Yoda in the context of how and where he does it and considering what he seems to be, I'm fine with it.

    Rey on the other hand just does it because she suddenly knows how to do it. Ben suddenly knows too.. Okay..
    Force-users figuring something out by instinct is well-established in canon. As for Ben; are we forgetting their psychic bond again for some reason?

    Why did Ben die after doing it? why didn't Rey?
    Rey was dead. The snake-thing wasn't. They portray the healing as an exchange of life Force. If the person is dead, it's gonna take everything you have to bring them back, and that means you die.

    Why didn't Reys body dissapear when she died but Bens did?
    The body disappearing thing isn't what happens to Jedi when they die. It's a specific Jedi ritual, done by conscious choice. I'm not even sure we see anyone properly die before using it. Yoda drifts off and then fades away. Luke and Obi-wan both pick their moment, without any injury that would cause death. And Ben's just lying down after spending himself to save Rey.

    The body disappearing isn't actually death; it's an ascension of the Force user into the Force itself, to become a Force ghost. If there's an exception to the pattern, it's Anakin, but Anakin's basically a special case anyway. It's incorporeal immortality.

    With Rey and Ben, Rey was focused on taking down Sheev. She didn't have time to set herself up for that shift, if she even knew how. Ben did.

  13. #6073
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The Jedi order lost a ton of knowledge over time which is why they thought the sith were a myth or that there can only be two instead of the massive sith order of the old republic. The most reasonable explanation is that force healing is something that was lost to the Jedi and because the Jedi are anti attachment they never relearned it.
    It's one thing to forget and/or not know secrets of your supposedly-vanquished enemy who is plotting in secret and hiding themselves. Of course you'd be expected to not know things about them.

    But to just totally forget a hugely important and impactful ability of your religion and a power that you wield daily? A power that your order and scholars have been studying and using for millennia? An ability that apparently isn't actually that hard to use, if people are just pulling it out of nowhere now? An ability that would seem incredibly integral to an order of what amounts to elite warrior monks or something?

    Nah. Lets be honest, it's just something new for the sake of newness. Lets not bend over backwards to explain their writing for them.

    At least in the case of Force Ghosts and that knowledge being lost and Qui-Gon relearning it or something, we're talking about a power that requires you to die to use. I could understand that it'd be kinda hard to experiment or practice such a thing, so who knows, the knowledge could be lost.

    Although if the power allows you to come back from the dead and teach it to someone, seems odd that it'd be lost. Maybe the last few users from before just didn't see anyone worth passing it on to or something. It's still more plausible than, "Oh, the Force can heal wounds and resurrect people but we just totally forgot that even though apparently people can just do it perfectly well whenever they feel like it now, but no one thought to do it before I guess."
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2020-01-09 at 04:49 PM.

  14. #6074
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    While baby yoda knowing it is questionable Rey atleaat has old republic books and kylo and her are “two as one” so he could just know what ability’s she knows.

    Given that there is a ton of lost knowledge from old republic to prequels republic it makes sense that the Jedi order of the prequels wouldn’t know of every force ability but Rey could have learned it from the books.

    Baby yoda on the other hand is up in the air on why he’d know it.

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    The Jedi order lost a ton of knowledge over time which is why they thought the sith were a myth or that there can only be two instead of the massive sith order of the old republic. The most reasonable explanation is that force healing is something that was lost to the Jedi and because the Jedi are anti attachment they never relearned it.

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    Rey likely learned it from the old republic books.

    Kylo likely learned it from the connection to Rey.

    It’s likely Rey didn’t die but she was on the edge of death when kylo heals her.

    Kylo likely gave all of his life force to Heal Rey and this made his body disappear for what ever reason and took Leia’s with it for some reason who knows.
    The books are a good point. Since they weren’t brought back up, I forgot about them, lol.
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  15. #6075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's one thing to forget and/or not know secrets of your supposedly-vanquished enemy who is plotting in secret and hiding themselves. Of course you'd be expected to not know things about them.

    But to just totally forget a hugely important and impactful ability of your religion and a power that you wield daily? A power that your order and scholars have been studying and using for millennia? An ability that apparently isn't actually that hard to use, if people are just pulling it out of nowhere now?

    Nah. Lets be honest, it's just something new for the sake of newness. Lets not bend over backwards to explain their writing for them.
    The sith had a whole empire multiple plants huge fleets/temples massive stores of informations and interactions with the galaxy not just the Jedi. All of that is either unknown or thought to be myths by the time of the prequel republic. This is stuff that would have a absolutely massive amount of records and it all disappears for a few thousand years.

    The Jedi while also suffering this lost of knowledge also lost a ton of there own info to the point where they don’t even recognize old Jedi artifacts a lot of the time.

    How ever the lost of knowledge happened it was absolutely massive to an incomparable degree and the Jedi were likely hit harder then the galaxy as a whole

  16. #6076
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    That sounds like headcanon. It was never stated that she was some fan girl who knew all about the force and what it can do.
    I said she reacted as such, you know, acting.
    The movie said she knew about that stuff. You claimed she didn't
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Yes, the force is a living thing that is everywhere. But to utilize it, it takes concentration and thought. Hence why meditation is so important to strengthen ones connection to the force. Clearing ones mind, visualizing what you want the force to do, this is how we've seen people get taught how to use the force before Rey just seemingly knows how to connect with it.
    Now that's headcanon. How they teach and what one needs are two different things. And that's just the Jedi teaching method. Do you know what's the Sith method? Just do it. If, at first, you don't succeed - get pissed off and then do it even better. Force is canonically VERY easy to teach. It's lightsaber combat - that's the thing that takes most of the time - plus Jedi took little kids to indoctrinate them (in the "proper" use of the Force) and educate them.

    Even Yoda himself said "Do or do not, there is no try". Such difficult, much training. Size doesn't matter as well. Did you know? It's what Yoda said.

    Also on force healing. Rey literally took the old force (not even Jedi exclusive iirc) teachings from the first Jedi Temple that Luke have found - before Yodaghost burnt it.
    By the time of episode 9 - she has read them at least partially. Force healing could be in there.

    Contemporary Jedi didn't know of it - or were forbidden to use it - because it's not a light side technique as it is a living force transfer that works BOTH ways and literally kills you if you overdo it forward.

    Palpy knew about it, and lured Anakin with it.

    Case closed.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  17. #6077
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The Jedi while also suffering this lost of knowledge also lost a ton of there own info to the point where they don’t even recognize old Jedi artifacts a lot of the time.

    How ever the lost of knowledge happened it was absolutely massive to an incomparable degree and the Jedi were likely hit harder then the galaxy as a whole
    Sure, and I totally buy it when it's something complex or obscure. Some ritual that does something really specific and isn't easy to learn, or requires a lot of setup or certain artifacts or whatever. Even Force Ghosts is pretty plausible to lose, as I mentioned before.

    But just, "Hey, if you just hold your hand out you can heal a wound. Maybe even bring someone back from the dead." seems kinda hard to just "lose". You don't see Jedi losing the ability to move objects around or force push stuff or jump really high or block blasters or whatever. It's that same sort of individual-level ability that seems extremely strange to just have disappear one day even though it doesn't require anything special to use.

    Again, lets not bend over backwards to explain their writing. They wanted something new, something neat and shiny to give their new protagonist and this is it. That's all. No reason to go all pretzel trying to explain it.

  18. #6078
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Sure, and I totally buy it when it's something complex or obscure. Some ritual that does something really specific and isn't easy to learn, or requires a lot of setup or certain artifacts or whatever. Even Force Ghosts is pretty plausible to lose, as I mentioned before.

    But just, "Hey, if you just hold your hand out you can heal a wound. Maybe even bring someone back from the dead." seems kinda hard to just "lose". You don't see Jedi losing the ability to move objects around or force push stuff or jump really high or block blasters or whatever. It's that same sort of individual-level ability that seems extremely strange to just have disappear one day even though it doesn't require anything special to use.

    Again, lets not bend over backwards to explain their writing. They wanted something new, something neat and shiny to give their new protagonist and this is it. That's all. No reason to go all pretzel trying to explain it.
    Some of the Jedi fighting styles have been lost and force pushing/pulling and the basic physical enhancements are things every Jedi know.

    Healing on the other hand could be an ability only left certain sects as the old republic Jedi weren’t the same as the prequel Jedi who only had one major base.

    You don’t need to bend over backward to explain it as there is a plausibly expiation and has been for years you not wanting to accept that doesn’t make it go away.
    Last edited by Daemos daemonium; 2020-01-09 at 05:36 PM.

  19. #6079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The sith had a whole empire multiple plants huge fleets/temples massive stores of informations and interactions with the galaxy not just the Jedi. All of that is either unknown or thought to be myths by the time of the prequel republic. This is stuff that would have a absolutely massive amount of records and it all disappears for a few thousand years.

    The Jedi while also suffering this lost of knowledge also lost a ton of there own info to the point where they don’t even recognize old Jedi artifacts a lot of the time.

    How ever the lost of knowledge happened it was absolutely massive to an incomparable degree and the Jedi were likely hit harder then the galaxy as a whole
    Something that gets overlooked a lot is that the era of the films is essentially a Dark Age, the tail end of centuries of growing ignorance, barbarism, rot and collapse. Their "floor" still includes hyperdrives and whatnot, but even the prequel Republic is presented as a thin patina of decency covering a metric fuckton of partisan dickery, hostility, apathy and so forth. It's the shiny foil covering an already-rotten apple.

  20. #6080
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Something that gets overlooked a lot is that the era of the films is essentially a Dark Age, the tail end of centuries of growing ignorance, barbarism, rot and collapse. Their "floor" still includes hyperdrives and whatnot, but even the prequel Republic is presented as a thin patina of decency covering a metric fuckton of partisan dickery, hostility, apathy and so forth. It's the shiny foil covering an already-rotten apple.
    I think it’s a problem with the tech people see lazers and space ships and think that it has to mean there incredibly advanced when really they are massively behind from where they were before the movie era.

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