View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    121 19.30%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    95 15.15%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    153 24.40%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    167 26.63%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.51%
  1. #6161
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yeah and who were those clones of??? A merc. Do you really think cloning the millions of loyalists he had in waiting wouldn't have made for more loyal clones? Especially if they were so loyal he was willing to keep them after the first purge.
    That's not how clones work. You don't get 100% same person. All the clone troopers had different personalities, they were all different in the force. Jedi could literally tell the clones they were with apart by sensing them with the Force. There is zero evidence that cloning a loyal soldier would yield more loyal soldiers.

    And that isn't the argument I was making. Yes, he could have done nothing and built the group in secret, however he would have had no say in how the external galaxy was moving. In Legends, Bane would often ignite rebellion in the Republic before they were ready to keep the Republic in power ... so one day it would be weak enough to take over. He was literally starting fights that he intended to lose badly. If the remaining Empire troops suddenly disappeared, rather than have some reorganize into the First Order, it would have been suspicious and we don't know what would have happened.

    By having the First Order and for the most part the First Order appeared inept until the destruction of the Hosnian system, it may have help ease them into believing the First Order is not a threat. We know they stole kids, but they also recruited them as well. People volunteered to join the First Order. Keep in mind, we are dealing with a character in a Fantasy setting ... their logic doesn't always make the most sense when you sit down and think about it.

    Palpatine's plan in the prequels relied on the Jedi being okay using clones of a man they knew worked with Dooku ... the leader of the Separatists. If the Jedi went, "Yeah, no, we aren't fighting with these clones" Order 66 happens differently. His plan also relied on Padme willing to leave Coruscant (which why? you can't hide on a planet of 1 trillion people) so that Jar Jar could be manipulated into granting him emergency powers.

    If you stop and think about any of Palpatine's plans too much, it stops making sense. He took way too many risks that risk exposing everything.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  2. #6162
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That's not how clones work. You don't get 100% same person. All the clone troopers had different personalities, they were all different in the force. Jedi could literally tell the clones they were with apart by sensing them with the Force. There is zero evidence that cloning a loyal soldier would yield more loyal soldiers.

    And that isn't the argument I was making. Yes, he could have done nothing and built the group in secret, however he would have had no say in how the external galaxy was moving. In Legends, Bane would often ignite rebellion in the Republic before they were ready to keep the Republic in power ... so one day it would be weak enough to take over. He was literally starting fights that he intended to lose badly. If the remaining Empire troops suddenly disappeared, rather than have some reorganize into the First Order, it would have been suspicious and we don't know what would have happened.

    By having the First Order and for the most part the First Order appeared inept until the destruction of the Hosnian system, it may have help ease them into believing the First Order is not a threat. We know they stole kids, but they also recruited them as well. People volunteered to join the First Order. Keep in mind, we are dealing with a character in a Fantasy setting ... their logic doesn't always make the most sense when you sit down and think about it.

    Palpatine's plan in the prequels relied on the Jedi being okay using clones of a man they knew worked with Dooku ... the leader of the Separatists. If the Jedi went, "Yeah, no, we aren't fighting with these clones" Order 66 happens differently. His plan also relied on Padme willing to leave Coruscant (which why? you can't hide on a planet of 1 trillion people) so that Jar Jar could be manipulated into granting him emergency powers.

    If you stop and think about any of Palpatine's plans too much, it stops making sense. He took way too many risks that risk exposing everything.
    He was willing to kill off anything and everything. Why not just kill any children of his followers or clones of them that acted out of line? And again he already knew how to make em pretty damn loyal using a merc as a base. Even if they weren't 100% loyal its a hell of a lot less risky than using people you have no idea about. Especailly when you are kidnapping random kids and raising awareness of a threat thats kidnapping a shit ton of kids from the galaxy instead of just indoctrinating your followers kids. Hell you could have your followers have a ton of kids then order them to kill their own kids. Kill any who don't and then repeat the process and eventually you will have bred a nearly perfectly loyal army.

    He could have had spies in the Galactic government apprising him of any potential situations. The Galactic Government didn't even have a military. Running around beating everyone is only going to stir the pot and considering it was rebels that owned him last time you would think he wouldn't do a repeat of that. And how did the First Order appear inept when they kidnapped hundreds of thousands of kids?




    Also Jar Jar was never manipulated he was the manipulator.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-01-11 at 03:31 AM.

  3. #6163
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The people who made up some of the first order were loyalists. The majority if not all the troopers were kidnapped kids. And many of the first order had no clue about the emperor or the fact that Snoke was a clone.
    You asked why they why they needed to create the First Order. To recruit people and obtain resources. How did they do that? The loyalists from the Empire, the kids they kidnapped, and conscripts.

    You ask why not one way, but why not all three if you can?

    Why no clones? There's probably an in-universe explanation somewhere be it Palpatine doesn't like them or whatever being that he phased them out almost immediately during the Imperial Era.

    Looking at Snoke deterioration, doesn't seem like Clone technology has progressed much.

  4. #6164
    Bottom line is this new trilogy is not canon. The story is trash and doesn't make sense. Only first 6 movies count. This is the same as with Terminator. Only the first two movies count the rest didn't fuckin happen.

  5. #6165
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Plus no one cares to hate on it over the past 25-30 years where it's been in every medium (books, games (Jedi knight, (ko)tor etc) has had force healing in.

    But suddenly it is in the sequels it is bad?
    Also after The Force Awakens: "It's a copy! They didn't have anything new!"

    After the other movies: "They put all this new stuff in it! It's not canonnnnnnnnnnnn!!"

  6. #6166
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Also Jar Jar was never manipulated he was the manipulator.
    If you are just going to be a troll, I am done.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  7. #6167
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    Also after The Force Awakens: "It's a copy! They didn't have anything new!"

    After the other movies: "They put all this new stuff in it! It's not canonnnnnnnnnnnn!!"
    I mean, in fairness both things can be true.

    JK Rowling could totally write another series of books about another young boy with a destiny who goes to Hogwarts and meets a kindly old professor named Dabbledorf and a creepy professor named Snack and basically retell the entire story, but also this young boy was raised by cybernetic ninjas and does all his fighting by stabbing people from the shadows and shooting them with his custom pair of pistols while performing impractical amounts of acrobatic maneuvers.

    It's totally possible to both recycle old plots and add new details to them, details that some fans might not approve of.

  8. #6168
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    You asked why they why they needed to create the First Order. To recruit people and obtain resources. How did they do that? The loyalists from the Empire, the kids they kidnapped, and conscripts.

    You ask why not one way, but why not all three if you can?

    Why no clones? There's probably an in-universe explanation somewhere be it Palpatine doesn't like them or whatever being that he phased them out almost immediately during the Imperial Era.

    Looking at Snoke deterioration, doesn't seem like Clone technology has progressed much.
    Snoke wasnt deteriorated thats why he looks identical in the clone tanks as he did before. And if Palpatine was using cloning to create a figurehead for the first order which is such an important position you really think he wouldn't have done so for the rank and file? He had to have at least 12 million people on his star destroyers alone and nobody could get to his planet without one of the 2 wayfinders. You really think Kylo wouldn't have questioned where half his fucking fleet suddenly went??


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    If you are just going to be a troll, I am done.
    From wikipedia:
    "In response to the speculations, actor Ahmed Best tweeted, "I will say this, it feels really good when the hidden meaning behind the work is seen. No matter how long it takes," apparently confirming the theory.[40] Some months later, he expanded upon his tweet in a YouTube interview, stating, "there is a lot about it that is true, there are some things about it that are not true... Could Jar Jar have evolved into that? I think the answer is yes. Because of the backlash, and rightfully so, Lucasfilm backed off of Jar Jar a lot, but a lot of the influence that I put into the character mirrored a lot of what was already in the Star Wars universe." Best concluded only George Lucas could unveil the actual role of Binks, yet he also revealed that a deleted scene from Attack of the Clones would have still shown Palpatine darkly confiding his plans about the Empire to Jar Jar.



    J. J. Abrams, who directed two installments of the franchise's sequel trilogy after its buyout by Disney, personally approved the theory about the villainous Jar Jar. He described Lumpawarroo's argumentation as an "unbelievably lengthy analysis, in a very seriously thought-out way, as to why it's obviously true.""
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-01-11 at 05:23 PM.

  9. #6169
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    From wikipedia:
    "In response to the speculations, actor Ahmed Best tweeted, "I will say this, it feels really good when the hidden meaning behind the work is seen. No matter how long it takes," apparently confirming the theory.[40] Some months later, he expanded upon his tweet in a YouTube interview, stating, "there is a lot about it that is true, there are some things about it that are not true... Could Jar Jar have evolved into that? I think the answer is yes. Because of the backlash, and rightfully so, Lucasfilm backed off of Jar Jar a lot, but a lot of the influence that I put into the character mirrored a lot of what was already in the Star Wars universe." Best concluded only George Lucas could unveil the actual role of Binks, yet he also revealed that a deleted scene from Attack of the Clones would have still shown Palpatine darkly confiding his plans about the Empire to Jar Jar."
    Perhaps you should read that again.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  10. #6170
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Perhaps you should read that again.
    Yes. And where does that say JarJAr is cowering in fear? And J. J. Abrams, who directed two installments of the franchise's sequel trilogy after its buyout by Disney, personally approved the theory about the villainous Jar Jar. He described Lumpawarroo's argumentation as an "unbelievably lengthy analysis, in a very seriously thought-out way, as to why it's obviously true."

  11. #6171
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    He had to have at least 12 million people on his star destroyers alone and nobody could get to his planet without one of the 2 wayfinders. You really think Kylo wouldn't have questioned where half his fucking fleet suddenly went??
    You want a real plot hole in TRoS? That's the one.

    "You need a Sith Wayfinder to get to this planet, and there are only two. Oh, and the flight logs of this guy's ship, cause he's been there. Oh, and the thousands of other ship logs from the apparently regular traffic ferrying huge amounts of personnel and material to the location, to build and staff that fleet in supposed secrecy."

    It's silly, because you can close that plot hole by just stating the path is dangerous, and you need a map. The Sith Wayfinders are one, but any map works. That they don't realize there's been a secret plot and there were other sources is fine, you just need to not pull the bullshit "there's only two Wayfinders, and they're the only way to get there" shit if you're gonna violate that premise yourself a few scenes later.

    I can see Kylo not being aware, because a lot of this was likely started under Snoke; there may just not have been further traffic, and the Final Order may have separated its supply lines from the First Order's records and systems, by that point. But it's not that hard to get to Exogol, clearly. Or else you'd never have gotten the thousands or millions of crew necessary to handle that fleet there. Not to mention the construction crews, the materials, the supplies like food to keep them healthy, etc. There had to be regular transport.

  12. #6172
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yes. And where does that say JarJAr is cowering in fear? And J. J. Abrams, who directed two installments of the franchise's sequel trilogy after its buyout by Disney, personally approved the theory about the villainous Jar Jar. He described Lumpawarroo's argumentation as an "unbelievably lengthy analysis, in a very seriously thought-out way, as to why it's obviously true."
    What argument are you even having now? You are totally insane off the rails right now, care to get back on tract?
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  13. #6173
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You want a real plot hole in TRoS? That's the one.

    "You need a Sith Wayfinder to get to this planet, and there are only two. Oh, and the flight logs of this guy's ship, cause he's been there. Oh, and the thousands of other ship logs from the apparently regular traffic ferrying huge amounts of personnel and material to the location, to build and staff that fleet in supposed secrecy."

    It's silly, because you can close that plot hole by just stating the path is dangerous, and you need a map. The Sith Wayfinders are one, but any map works. That they don't realize there's been a secret plot and there were other sources is fine, you just need to not pull the bullshit "there's only two Wayfinders, and they're the only way to get there" shit if you're gonna violate that premise yourself a few scenes later.

    I can see Kylo not being aware, because a lot of this was likely started under Snoke; there may just not have been further traffic, and the Final Order may have separated its supply lines from the First Order's records and systems, by that point. But it's not that hard to get to Exogol, clearly. Or else you'd never have gotten the thousands or millions of crew necessary to handle that fleet there. Not to mention the construction crews, the materials, the supplies like food to keep them healthy, etc. There had to be regular transport.
    Well, you know how writers love their MacGuffins.

  14. #6174
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, you know how writers love their MacGuffins.
    Ive seen this word used more in the last week than the entire of last year.

    People on the net sure love their buzz words.

    You can just point how bad plot points without having to use the new fad term.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  15. #6175
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Ive seen this word used more in the last week than the entire of last year.

    People on the net sure love their buzz words.

    You can just point how bad plot points without having to use the new fad term.
    Sure...right...but how would internet randos know that we are edgy legit film critics if we don't point out Mary Sues, Deus ex machina, and McGuffins, while pointing out we are Cinephiles?

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  16. #6176
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Ive seen this word used more in the last week than the entire of last year.

    People on the net sure love their buzz words.

    You can just point how bad plot points without having to use the new fad term.
    I mean, MacGuffin is a term that was coined in the 1920s, so unless your definition of "new" is very different from mine, your peeve here is misinformed.

  17. #6177
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    What else should we call that hilarious dagger with the extendable ruler or whatever it was.

  18. #6178
    The Patient Eduardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You want a real plot hole in TRoS? That's the one.

    "You need a Sith Wayfinder to get to this planet, and there are only two. Oh, and the flight logs of this guy's ship, cause he's been there. Oh, and the thousands of other ship logs from the apparently regular traffic ferrying huge amounts of personnel and material to the location, to build and staff that fleet in supposed secrecy."

    It's silly, because you can close that plot hole by just stating the path is dangerous, and you need a map. The Sith Wayfinders are one, but any map works. That they don't realize there's been a secret plot and there were other sources is fine, you just need to not pull the bullshit "there's only two Wayfinders, and they're the only way to get there" shit if you're gonna violate that premise yourself a few scenes later.

    I can see Kylo not being aware, because a lot of this was likely started under Snoke; there may just not have been further traffic, and the Final Order may have separated its supply lines from the First Order's records and systems, by that point. But it's not that hard to get to Exogol, clearly. Or else you'd never have gotten the thousands or millions of crew necessary to handle that fleet there. Not to mention the construction crews, the materials, the supplies like food to keep them healthy, etc. There had to be regular transport.
    Yes there are plot holes due to stupid reasons. Its important to remember the primary audience for_Disney is younger kids. If its too difficult it wont work.

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  19. #6179
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Snoke wasnt deteriorated thats why he looks identical in the clone tanks as he did before. And if Palpatine was using cloning to create a figurehead for the first order which is such an important position you really think he wouldn't have done so for the rank and file? He had to have at least 12 million people on his star destroyers alone and nobody could get to his planet without one of the 2 wayfinders. You really think Kylo wouldn't have questioned where half his fucking fleet suddenly went??

    Where are you getting this 12 million number? The ISDs we say in the movie were mostly unmanned at the time. Even then they are mostly autonomous, requiring smaller crews like the First Order SDs. Kylo was also aware of the transition to the to the new fleet.

    Snoke wasnt deteriorated thats why he looks identical in the clone tanks as he did before
    Snoke definitely goes to various stages of ugly, both on screen and in the comics, unless they just suck at rendering him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    What else should we call that hilarious dagger with the extendable ruler or whatever it was.
    JJs unnecessary plot device #323.

  20. #6180
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Ive seen this word used more in the last week than the entire of last year.

    People on the net sure love their buzz words.

    You can just point how bad plot points without having to use the new fad term.
    Ah yes, that "new fad term".

    Right up there with those other "new fads" like "shoes" and "running water".

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