View Poll Results: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  • ☆☆☆☆ [0]

    121 19.30%
  • ★☆☆☆ [1]

    95 15.15%
  • ★★☆☆ [2]

    153 24.40%
  • ★★★☆ [3]

    167 26.63%
  • ★★★★ [4]

    91 14.51%
  1. #6181
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Where are you getting this 12 million number? The ISDs we say in the movie were mostly unmanned at the time. Even then they are mostly autonomous, requiring smaller crews like the First Order SDs. Kylo was also aware of the transition to the to the new fleet.
    Even if they were fully manned ... there are about 50,000 people per Imperial Star Destroyer (assuming fully staff) (however Wookieepedia has staff at 30,000 for these).

    If 12 million on the Star Destroyers means the Final Order had 240 star destroyers. If it is the 30,000, that goes up to 400.

    So we have 240 to 400 Star Destroyers if he is correct on the 12 million. Numbers I see are hundreds to thousands, but the hundreds come from a more official source. So, he isn't off ... but he thinks in the Star Wars Galaxy 12 million people is a lot ... it isn't. Coruscant population is 1 Trillion. 12 million is hardly anything in galaxy population, that may not even be an average civilized planet's population. We are talking about the population of Belgium ... moving within the Star Wars Galaxy.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  2. #6182
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You want a real plot hole in TRoS? That's the one.

    "You need a Sith Wayfinder to get to this planet, and there are only two. Oh, and the flight logs of this guy's ship, cause he's been there. Oh, and the thousands of other ship logs from the apparently regular traffic ferrying huge amounts of personnel and material to the location, to build and staff that fleet in supposed secrecy."

    It's silly, because you can close that plot hole by just stating the path is dangerous, and you need a map. The Sith Wayfinders are one, but any map works. That they don't realize there's been a secret plot and there were other sources is fine, you just need to not pull the bullshit "there's only two Wayfinders, and they're the only way to get there" shit if you're gonna violate that premise yourself a few scenes later.

    I can see Kylo not being aware, because a lot of this was likely started under Snoke; there may just not have been further traffic, and the Final Order may have separated its supply lines from the First Order's records and systems, by that point. But it's not that hard to get to Exogol, clearly. Or else you'd never have gotten the thousands or millions of crew necessary to handle that fleet there. Not to mention the construction crews, the materials, the supplies like food to keep them healthy, etc. There had to be regular transport.
    I could be totally wrong but I think I heard somewhere where Palpatine just kept sending shit there before the empire was destroyed and the people there are like the survivors which if thats the case I think the wayfinder stuff is more defensible although still pretty dumb but could maybe explained by saying only someone powerful in the force can navigate it properly without specific coordinates and stuff.

    But yeah Idk why they bothered with that because without it the dumb dagger part could have been left out as well. They could have just had them go to the Death Star wreckage to recover map data (and show us how Palpatine possibly survived). I can only assume they thought the wayfinder and dagger would make good merch.


    If the above isn't true yeah I guess Kylo might not be aware but since Snoke/Palpatine was grooming him you would think he would atleast learned who is all under his eventual command, like the commanders of the ships and stuff and notice if some stopped showing up.




    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Where are you getting this 12 million number? The ISDs we say in the movie were mostly unmanned at the time. Even then they are mostly autonomous, requiring smaller crews like the First Order SDs. Kylo was also aware of the transition to the to the new fleet.



    Snoke definitely goes to various stages of ugly, both on screen and in the comics, unless they just suck at rendering him.
    Where is your source saying they were mostly unmanned?

    I got 12 million from someone counting over 250 ships in the trailer before the movie came out and Kylo's star destroyers requiring crews of over 80k. I used less then a full compliment in case they weren't fully manned. :https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Res...Star_Destroyer I was wrong because apparently they have almost 30k people aboard each one : https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Xys...Star_Destroyer . So yeah there were at the very least 7 million people aboard them and I'm sure more because the source I got the 250 from was only from a single scene in the trailer.

    Also Its strange you keep saying the first orders were mostly autonomous when they require a ton more people than the originals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    What argument are you even having now? You are totally insane off the rails right now, care to get back on tract?
    Says the guy who repeatedly takes tiny sections of my comments and ignores the rest because they cant come up with a proper response. What ever I'm done with you.

  3. #6183
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Says the guy who repeatedly takes tiny sections of my comments and ignores the rest because they cant come up with a proper response. What ever I'm done with you.
    Because I only respond to the parts that have anything to actually do with what we are discussing ... you like tangents and nothing you pointed out has any real relevance. You repeating a point a different way doesn't give it any more validity, and FYI, don't whine about behavior you do.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-01-12 at 12:00 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  4. #6184
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post

    Where is your source saying they were mostly unmanned?

    I got 12 million from someone counting over 250 ships in the trailer before the movie came out and Kylo's star destroyers requiring crews of over 80k. I used less then a full compliment in case they weren't fully manned. :https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Res...Star_Destroyer I was wrong because apparently they have almost 30k people aboard each one : https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Xys...Star_Destroyer . So yeah there were at the very least 7 million people aboard them and I'm sure more because the source I got the 250 from was only from a single scene in the trailer.

    Also Its strange you keep saying the first orders were mostly autonomous when they require a ton more people than the originals.
    Looks like I was wrong about the Resurgence class SDs being somewhat autonomous (at least I can't find a source right now), still the case for the Sith Star Destroyers though.

  5. #6185
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    Well, by all accounts Abrams had some idea where he was going when he started. Rian unfortunately grabbed the wheel and swerved the trilogy off the road and by the time JJ got control again all he could manage was saving it by getting stuck in a ditch instead of wrapped around a tree.
    That's all speculation as far as I can tell.

    Honestly my opinion at the time based on the plot threads JJ handed over to Rian was that he was probably creating a bunch of mysteries with the intent that future writers would fill them in. Again, look at Lost :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #6186
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Looks like I was wrong about the Resurgence class SDs being somewhat autonomous (at least I can't find a source right now), still the case for the Sith Star Destroyers though.
    I'm not seeing any sources that say they are mostly autonomous just that you can blow them up by shooting at the super laser.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-01-12 at 06:03 PM.

  7. #6187
    It’s interesting. I feel like The Last Jedi’s departure/“subversion” is kind of similar to when wow removed flying. People had strong, split reactions, creating a seemingly permanent schism in the fanbase.

    I count myself as one of those whose interest in Star Wars plummeted after Last Jedi because I felt like the “subversion” attacked things I really liked about the franchise (specifically, the infantilization of Luke).

    Just read an article in the times comparing Star Wars’ reception to endgame, and pointing to the last Jedi as the reason Star Wars was treated a lot differently from endgame. It really hit home.

    If Infinity War had tried to “subvert” the superhero genre the way tlj did, I’m sure the reaction would have been similar.

    It’s just a really bad idea to take something that has a ton of fans and try to sharply move it in a totally different direction.
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  8. #6188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It’s just a really bad idea to take something that has a ton of fans and try to sharply move it in a totally different direction.
    To be fair, I think there IS room for that, in Star Wars, just NOT in the core trilogy.

    I think if Rian had made a standalone film, about a group of rebels fleeing in a ship, while a group of faceless first order types has persued them, through warps and all, then they'd slowly worked out why they were able to do this, snuck onto their ship, deativated the tracker and then legged it, it could have been great.

    However, having tha story, as the second of the new star wars trilogy just felt super wrong. Add in the divisive handling of Luke and the largely pointless Canto Bite arc and you're destined for trouble.
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  9. #6189
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    To be fair, I think there IS room for that, in Star Wars, just NOT in the core trilogy.

    I think if Rian had made a standalone film, about a group of rebels fleeing in a ship, while a group of faceless first order types has persued them, through warps and all, then they'd slowly worked out why they were able to do this, snuck onto their ship, deativated the tracker and then legged it, it could have been great.

    However, having tha story, as the second of the new star wars trilogy just felt super wrong. Add in the divisive handling of Luke and the largely pointless Canto Bite arc and you're destined for trouble.
    Absolutely. The way Marvel did with Ragnarok and Guardians. Campy side journeys are fine. Of course to me, the other difference between those and the last Jedi is they poke fun at superheroes instead of attempting to unravel the whole mythology.

    I guess a better example is Daredevil, which is decidedly not funny but does a good job showing how the avengers look to someone living in New York and how it’s not all positive from their perspective.

    Either way, the Marvel universe is obviously the gold standard right now, with an acclaimed set of main movies built around the avengers and a bunch of excellent side projects with lots of different tones. We’ll see over the next 15 years if Star Wars can recover and reach something closer to that level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  10. #6190
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Absolutely. The way Marvel did with Ragnarok and Guardians. Campy side journeys are fine. Of course to me, the other difference between those and the last Jedi is they poke fun at superheroes instead of attempting to unravel the whole mythology.

    I guess a better example is Daredevil, which is decidedly not funny but does a good job showing how the avengers look to someone living in New York and how it’s not all positive from their perspective.

    Either way, the Marvel universe is obviously the gold standard right now, with an acclaimed set of main movies built around the avengers and a bunch of excellent side projects with lots of different tones. We’ll see over the next 15 years if Star Wars can recover and reach something closer to that level.
    I would argue that many of the problems with the Sequel Trilogy stems from it being "The acclaimed Disney Star Wars Trilogy". And not simply Star Wars.

    Rogue one is pretty darn great, it feels almost entirely disconnected from both the Original Trilogy and the Prequels, but it still feels like it takes place in teh same universe. Because Star Wars is not really about groundbreaking visual effects or corporations making each new movie an event, but about a director or writer making a space movie about something he wants to see.

    Solo as well. I certainly didnt think it was a great movie, but i enjoyed it well enough, and could at least respect it for being different and making me feel there was some amount of passion behind it.


    The Sequel Trilogy feels almost completely soulless. A middle of the road special effects bonanza whose every bit of nuance or quirk has been sanded off if it didnt align with Disneys wish to make money.

  11. #6191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I guess a better example is Daredevil, which is decidedly not funny but does a good job showing how the avengers look to someone living in New York and how it’s not all positive from their perspective.
    Exactly, yeah. If they'd made Last Jedi a kind of Daredevil-esque side film, showing how normal resistance fighters deal when they don't have ace pilots and Jedi to assist, it could have been amazing.
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  12. #6192
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Honestly, in comparing Star Wars to the MCU, I think we're missing the integral distinction.

    Star Wars was told as three distinct trilogies, and trilogies have a specific pattern to follow; small victory in the first part (potentially working as a standalone, as ANH did), followed by the collapse of that victory into an even worse state than we opened in during the second part, and climbing back up to a grander victory in the final part. If we start at 0 to use arbitrary numbers, the first ends on a +1, the second on a -1, and the third on a +2. But these all need to be telling a coherent, continuous story. They did so, in both the OT and prequels (as much as that's about the only thing the prequels did well). In the modern trilogy, trading it between writers and directors each film with no strong guidance meant we didn't have that coherent story, the middle act doesn't really continue the same themes as the first and third. I maintain it would've been fine if JJ Abrams had done all three, or Rian Johnson; the issue was trading it between them.

    The MCU doesn't do trilogies. There may be characters who have three films, but those films are distinct, separate entries. They're serials, not a trilogy, because "trilogy" means more than "there's three entries". And that's why big changes in direction and writing, like going from Thor 1/2 into Thor Ragnarok, are totally fine. Thor Ragnarok doesn't depend on or continue the stories of the first two films, other than sharing some characters. There's an uberstory woven throughout all the films, regarding the Infinity Stones, and that's what pulls everything in for the Avengers, but it's so ephemeral that you don't need to consider it in evaluating any of the separate entries of the individual films. It's not a part of their stories; it occurs incidentally or in the background. A story might revolve around Loki trying to steal the Tesseract, but that the Tesseract is actually the Space Stone doesn't matter, plot-wise, until we get to the Avengers films. "Powerful alien trinket" is all we needed for the earlier films. That it's the Space Stone is the uberstory; that matters to the group films, but not the individual ones.

    And that, I think, would be a grand way to go with Star Wars, now that the Skywalker stuff is over. Move to a new era, either back 1000 years into the High Republic (not the Old Republic), or (better) forward a few centuries or more. Tech doesn't have to change; it doesn't between the Old Republic and the modern era of the Skywalker saga. Do smaller-scale character-based stories. A cyber criminal, working against corporate elites in the New Empire (or whatever), write this as something like Bourne Identity in Space. A young Force-user, in an era when the Force is basically considered a myth, seeking out Jedi and Sith temples to learn about their powers, while pursued by government agents who want to harness their abilities (Indiana Jones in Space, with Magic, and overtones of every Government Experiments on Kid With Powers story). A mercenary warlord, working with Resistance groups, with enough honour he won't fight for the New Empire, but still not willing to raise a rifle without a paycheck. He's got a small band of mercs he runs, could use any number of war films as the inspiration. There's three characters, they each have their own story. 1-2 films each, and they start running into each other, and eventually team up, because the New Empire's after each of them, and they each think the New Empire's gotta go.

    Give us characters first. Team-up later. Stories like The Mandalorian should be the baseline, and then when Mando shows up in the big come-together film, that's awesome for everyone. One of the biggest issues with the modern trilogy is that we just don't get to know the characters, particularly Finn. He never really gets a chance to be important in some big way. That's not even needed, really, if he's already someone the audience loves from his own films.

  13. #6193
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Honestly, in comparing Star Wars to the MCU, I think we're missing the integral distinction.
    I would argue that the main sticking point, at least for me, on why the sequels are bad coems down to it being all flash and nostalgia pandering, and no substance. It feels like a corporate creation made solely for the purpose of making money and barely at all like there is a person behind the movies with passion wanting to tell a story.

    Marvel is also something that was made almost from the beginning as corporate fluff to sell movie tickets, meaning that as it inevitably grew and got into its own the quality of the movies organically grew as the actors got more comfortable in their roles and the directors knew what was expected of them.

    Star Wars is at its heart George Lucas telling the story he always wanted to tell. A cheesy kid-friendly space opera harkening back to old movies he watched as a kid.


    Though of course, as i mentioned, this is specifically a problem with the sequel trilogy as a whole. The standalone movies are significantly more interesting because they come across like directors who love Star Wars telling the stories they want to tell, playing with tone, look and structure to do so, meaning that regardless of their quality they stand on their own.

  14. #6194
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I would argue that the main sticking point, at least for me, on why the sequels are bad coems down to it being all flash and nostalgia pandering, and no substance. It feels like a corporate creation made solely for the purpose of making money and barely at all like there is a person behind the movies with passion wanting to tell a story.

    Marvel is also something that was made almost from the beginning as corporate fluff to sell movie tickets, meaning that as it inevitably grew and got into its own the quality of the movies organically grew as the actors got more comfortable in their roles and the directors knew what was expected of them.

    Star Wars is at its heart George Lucas telling the story he always wanted to tell. A cheesy kid-friendly space opera harkening back to old movies he watched as a kid.


    Though of course, as i mentioned, this is specifically a problem with the sequel trilogy as a whole. The standalone movies are significantly more interesting because they come across like directors who love Star Wars telling the stories they want to tell, playing with tone, look and structure to do so, meaning that regardless of their quality they stand on their own.
    To me it basically comes down to The Last Jedi. The middle movie is where you're supposed to add depth to the characters, to set up the big bad for the ending. Rian killed Snoke, who seems to have been set up as the big bad, and there was no obvious big bad left to fight except emo Kylo, who stinks as a big bad.

    An alternative middle movie who built out Snoke a bit more instead of just randomly killing him could have been much better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
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  15. #6195
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I'm not seeing any sources that say they are mostly autonomous just that you can blow them up by shooting at the super laser.
    Its in the visual dictionary.



    https://i.redd.it/4grnfa3fqu541.jpg

  16. #6196
    I am Murloc! Xuvial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I would argue that the main sticking point, at least for me, on why the sequels are bad coems down to it being all flash and nostalgia pandering, and no substance. It feels like a corporate creation made solely for the purpose of making money and barely at all like there is a person behind the movies with passion wanting to tell a story.
    It's because the Star Wars universe is so incredibly limited that producers only have two options:

    1) Make it about the most recognizable elements of Star Wars - jedi, the force, lightsabers, space battles, super-lasers, etc. If they go this way, it becomes impossible NOT to turn it into a huge scoop of nostalgia-pandering. But this is also where the money is, because a large subset of the fanbase will gobble up anything featuring those elements (no matter how terrible the movie is) and buy all the merchandise. The prequels proved this.
    Arguably the only thing featuring these nostalgia elements that has actually been GOOD (since the OT) is the 2008 Clone Wars animated TV show.

    2) Detach it from all the above Star Wars elements and venture into spin-off territory. But the only thing that has been successful in this regard is The Mandalorian, which could quite easily be happening in it's own separate sci-fi universe. It's basically Lone Cowboy/Samurai in space. It doesn't need any prior knowledge of Star Wars to be fully enjoyable.
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  17. #6197
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    That's all speculation as far as I can tell.

    Honestly my opinion at the time based on the plot threads JJ handed over to Rian was that he was probably creating a bunch of mysteries with the intent that future writers would fill them in. Again, look at Lost :P
    It's according to Daisy Ridley herself. JJ wrote drafts for 8 and 9 but Rian didn't go along with it.

    https://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/...abrams-script/

  18. #6198
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Its in the visual dictionary.



    https://i.redd.it/4grnfa3fqu541.jpg
    Thanks. Makes sense considering their much lower crew numbers compared to the First Order ones. Wasn't sure if the low numbers were from skeleton crews or what.

  19. #6199
    Quote Originally Posted by Xuvial View Post
    It's because the Star Wars universe is so incredibly limited that producers only have two options:

    1) Make it about the most recognizable elements of Star Wars - jedi, the force, lightsabers, space battles, super-lasers, etc. If they go this way, it becomes impossible NOT to turn it into a huge scoop of nostalgia-pandering. But this is also where the money is, because a large subset of the fanbase will gobble up anything featuring those elements (no matter how terrible the movie is) and buy all the merchandise. The prequels proved this.
    Arguably the only thing featuring these nostalgia elements that has actually been GOOD (since the OT) is the 2008 Clone Wars animated TV show.

    2) Detach it from all the above Star Wars elements and venture into spin-off territory. But the only thing that has been successful in this regard is The Mandalorian, which could quite easily be happening in it's own separate sci-fi universe. It's basically Lone Cowboy/Samurai in space. It doesn't need any prior knowledge of Star Wars to be fully enjoyable.
    Making a good star wars movie without constantly pandering to nostalgia is fully possible. George Lucas showed with the Prequels that if you are passionate about what you do, and you tell the story you want to tell then the products will at least stand on its own, and not just as a weird growth of the original.

    The most fitting analogue to this is Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, compared to his Hobbit movies. And then arguably those compared to Guillermo del Toro's pitch of the Hobbit.
    The Lord of the Rings was made with passion. It had a director that oversaw it, and even with the flaws the movies occasionally had the passion he and the other designers, musicians and actors had shone through.
    The Hobbit is just like the Sequels highly polished, special effects carnivals. Where all the best special effects wizards in the world cannot hide the fact that the only ones with passion connected to those movies were the shareholders.
    The potential Del Toro Hobbit is the Prequels in this analogy. Frmo what i have heard i am not completely sold on the movie, especially on that movie he pitched being interesting for fans of Lord of the Rings. But it would have been made by someone with passion, and would therefore elevate itself instantly above the Hobbit we got, since all the flash and good acting in the world mean nothing when shown in a soulless product.

    As i mentioned before though, many of these problems boil down to the Sequels not being Star Wars, but instead being "Regiustered trademark Star Wars, property of Disney" meaning that they took absolutely no chances whatsoever, instead settling for the nostalgia pandering that is so common nowadays when the writers or directors have no passion for the work.

  20. #6200
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I'm not seeing any sources that say they are mostly autonomous just that you can blow them up by shooting at the super laser.
    Apparently, killing Palpatine also makes all the fleet explode by themselves millions of light-years away from Exegol.

    Tbh this whole "ships can't fly correctly without the radio signal" sounds like a huge bandaid to make the Resistance win this. That literally doesn't make sense, especially when Resistance ship seem to perfectly be able to fly on this planet without the same signal.
    These ships rose from the planet vertically. Whatever direction they'd have taken (except"down", and don't tell me these incredibly high-tech ships don't know where their "down" is, I'm pretty sure the bridge is always the "top") would have brought them to "hyperspace launch altitude".

    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Its in the visual dictionary.

    https://i.redd.it/4grnfa3fqu541.jpg
    Still have 30.000 crew members... each

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