Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Kyphael]

I don't recall Anakin's strength ever being the determining factor in what he did. It was a side effect, not a requirement.

Side effect or contributing factor? Palpatine wouldn't shut up about Anakin's power and potential.

Let's be clear; in A New Hope, Lucas knew basically nothing about Vader other than "scary dude with scary powers and a cool suit". The prequels makes Obi-wan talking to Luke about his father in ANH retroactively ridiculous. "Here's your dad's lightsaber. He, like, killed a lot of children with it."

I know he came up with the story movie by movie with just a very vague outline in mind. I get what you mean, but Vader's full backstory not being fleshed out in ANH doesn't mean he wasn't special.

While we knew Vader had to be "strong" in the OT, we didn't know "strongest there will ever be". That's never stated in the canon. You're making it up.

I'm not making it up per say as much as drawing a conclusion that couldn't have been supported until Revenge of the Sith. Palpatine alluded to Yoda Vader would become more powerful than both of them, a point Yoda did not outright refute.

That still gives you no grounds to claim Luke is weaker in the Force than his father.

The basis of my entire argument surrounds around the prophecy; Anakin is the chosen one. Luke is just his son, but their experiences does also lend precedent to the theory. By their respective prime ages, Anakin was a much more seasoned, and experienced duelist than Luke. Anakin fought Dooku, as a teenager, he fought in The Clone Wars, had his own Padawan, and trained with some of the greatest Jedi in the golden age of the Jedi. Luke saw little action before the Luke we saw in RoTJ. In a duel between the two in their prime, I'd be crazy not to bet on Anakin.

That's never established in the films or current canon, ever. I brought up to old EU because it was established, there, that Luke was the stronger of the two. You can pick between "dunno" or "Luke was stronger than Anakin". "Anakin was stronger than Luke" is a position that has no basis in Star Wars, whether canon or non-canon.

While I respect the EU, it's no longer canon, so "Luke was stronger than Anakin" is like it was never written. Disney owns the IP and they wished that away. I won't argue in bad faith though so I'd concede Luke in his prime was definitely stronger than Vader in old age, but Anakin in his prime, with all his power, in a stable mind like when he killed Dooku, that Anakin I would say was stronger than Luke.

His desire to live up to his grandfather's legacy.
His uncertainty about that path.
His need for control, and his inability to maintain it.
His need for companionship, after breaking all ties to his family.
His petulance and insecurity.

I could probably go on but I think I've made my point.

Wanting to live up to Vader's legacy is kind of an oxymoron, and a red flag for Luke. "Wait, hold on... I love my father and all, but his legacy was hunting down and killing the Jedi and subjugating the universe." Ben's story has been told through exposition, there should probably be a movie about it because we only have quotes from Luke to go by and like, one flash back scene. I didn't really see his need for companionship in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, Rise of Skywalker spoilers notwithstanding.

Ben/Kylo is very similar to Episodes II and III Anakin, but with the caveat he's even stronger than "the chosen one." That's my beef. It's a promotion tactic more than good storytelling, and I'm sticking to it just because Luke's power never had to be touted in the OT for people to sympathize with his character.

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Vader skilled up in every way post episode 3 and stopped limiting him self to the Jedi ways.

Here’s just one battle where he takes apart hundreds with out taking a scratch post episode 4 this included ships and tanks.



http://www.comicbookcritic.net/wp-co...Preview_31.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...7w0VDjvNENEary

This is all canon and there are many more fights which eclipse every thing pre episode 3.

You're just helping me prove Vader's strength over Luke now. =P

[StillMcfuu]

To be honest, I'm still surprised people thought The Force Awakens was a sign of great things to come. It was pure nostalgia and introduced nothing interesting or any new concepts. They pretty much just revived The Empire out of nowhere with Vader-lite and checked all the boxes that Star Wars fans wanted checked.

Han and Chewie in Millennium Falcon? Check.
New Darth Vader that's not burnt? Check.
New female Luke Skywalker? Check.
A New Hope plot recycled? Check.

TFA had promise. There is a lot of cry baby nonsense around Rey, but generally Kylo Ren was an interesting character, Rey was set up pretty decently, Finn/Rey/Poe all had pretty great onscreen chemistry, and then there were secondary plots and characters such as Snoke, Finn being a Trooper, Captain Phasma, etc... there was a lot there to be happy about.

Really this falls on Rian Johnson, he took what should have been a glorious base, and subverted out expectations by taking all of that good work out of the series. Snoke was a joke, Phasma died a bums death with no other screen time, no one cared Finn was a trooper, they jammed Rose into the Buddy cop dynamic of the previous 3 and it all fell flat, etc...

TFA may have been a bit to much on the nose, nostalgia wise, but there was a lot of new in there that may had been overshadowed by the recycled story, I was excitedly awaiting for the next movie to bring these stories into the light, but it didn't work out that way.

[Kyphael]

Indeed..and also in a very ..shall we say lazy or unsatisfying way? Where you come out of the cinema and feel it was an okay film..but then you think about it and it's like...nah...it really was shite.

30 years are passed and everyone in the Galaxy forgot about the time when the Empire and two Death Stars were destroyed by Jedi? The Force and Luke Skywalker became a myth while still people are actively searching for Luke? How does this stuff about there being a Resistance even make sense after the Empire was beaten and the Rebellion basically now taking control? Where did the First Order came from?

As for Rey being a female Luke Skywalker? Wow..that is an insult really. Luke went through the classic hero's journey. He failed and needed to grow. Rey was just able to do everything and as far as I am concerned never ever failed....to the point where Leia hugs her instead of Chewie after Han was dead. Oh yeah..Han who totally failed as a parent and Luke who would go so far as to try and redeem his father...a murdering monster...but he would kill his nephew in his sleep over a vision.

Horseshit....the only redeeming thing is the FX, the cinematography and editing - so as far as I am concerned TFA and TLJ are up there with any of the shite Transformer movies that made billions on a shit plot, on shit characters and on visuals alone.

Well I just meant in Disney's eyes, Rey was the new Luke. Doesn't mean it was convincing to the fan base, which it obviously wasn't. I shouldn't be surprised, J.J Abbrams is kind of a carny director. He's no revolutionary, but he's good at his craft in giving the audience what it wants, but it's nothing everlasting or groundbreaking. His movies are tack ons, as much in Star Wars as Star Trek. He's the kind of director that will come up with an alternate timeline with alternate Captain Kirk instead of Captain Picard. Likewise, he'll come up with a new Darth Vader and rehash The Empire rather than come up with something fresh and new while also honoring the past.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're just helping me prove Vader's strength over Luke now. =P

This shows that Vader is beyond his skill and power of episode 3 it does not show Him being above Luke In any way as you know Luke’s not in any of this.

As far as Luke’s canon feats pre episode 5 he shakes a whole stardestroyer with a force push and we know he beats Vader in 6 though we don’t have extended material past 5.

[Kyphael]

TFA had promise. There is a lot of cry baby nonsense around Rey, but generally Kylo Ren was an interesting character, Rey was set up pretty decently, Finn/Rey/Poe all had pretty great onscreen chemistry, and then there were secondary plots and characters such as Snoke, Finn being a Trooper, Captain Phasma, etc... there was a lot there to be happy about.

Really this falls on Rian Johnson, he took what should have been a glorious base, and subverted out expectations by taking all of that good work out of the series. Snoke was a joke, Phasma died a bums death with no other screen time, no one cared Finn was a trooper, they jammed Rose into the Buddy cop dynamic of the previous 3 and it all fell flat, etc...

TFA may have been a bit to much on the nose, nostalgia wise, but there was a lot of new in there that may had been overshadowed by the recycled story, I was excitedly awaiting for the next movie to bring these stories into the light, but it didn't work out that way.

I'll definitely put a brunt of the blame on Johnson, and I did like Phasma, but everything else, there wasn't much to be excited about. Just to me anyway. I'm only vaguely familiar with the EU, but I do know there were a lot of stories there they could have adapted instead of rehashing an Empire plot, but Disney always goes for the safe bets, and never take risks.

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This shows that Vader is beyond his skill and power of episode 3 it does not show Him being above Luke In any way as you know Luke’s not in any of this.

As far as Luke’s canon feats pre episode 5 he shakes a whole stardestroyer with a force push and we know he beats Vader in 6 though we don’t have extended material past 5.

I have very little knowledge of expanded material, even comics that might still be considered canon. I know Luke was definitely stronger than Vader in Episode 6, I saw him outright beat him, clean. My argument is Anakin, in his prime, in Episode 3 when he beat Dooku, that Anakin was stronger than Episode 6 Luke, IMO. Do we see Anakin shake a star destroyer? No. I mean, he didn't need to, there were none. In a duel, I'd say Anakin bests Luke based on experience and he himself was very powerful in The Force.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I have very little knowledge of expanded material, even comics that might still be considered canon. I know Luke was definitely stronger than Vader in Episode 6, I saw him outright beat him, clean. My argument is Anakin, in his prime, in Episode 3 when he beat Dooku, that Anakin was stronger than Episode 6 Luke, IMO. Do we see Anakin shake a star destroyer? No. I mean, he didn't need to, there were none. In a duel, I'd say Anakin bests Luke based on experience and he himself was very powerful in The Force.

Anakin wasn’t in his prime in episode 3 as he improves massively once he becomes Vader as the pictures I linked above show. Anakin might have never reached his prime Due to a bunch of factors holding him back but he peaked some where post episode 3 after he was Vader.

Luke being stronger then Vader in 6 means he was miles ahead of anakin in 3.

[StillMcfuu]

I'll definitely put a brunt of the blame on Johnson, and I did like Phasma, but everything else, there wasn't much to be excited about. Just to me anyway. I'm only vaguely familiar with the EU, but I do know there were a lot of stories there they could have adapted instead of rehashing an Empire plot, but Disney always goes for the safe bets, and never take risks.

I disagree, I thought there were a lot of places to go with the characters and the TFA set ups. Pretty much all of it was thrown away.

EU wise, there are some plots there that are interesting, a lot of it is 50 Shades of Grey fanfic trash, they weren't exactly wrong to throw it to the side, at least for the future events. The biggest bit of EU that has snuck into the series is Leia's ability to use the force. Which isn't really that far fetched, but their handling of it onscreen was extremely cringey and looked like it belonged in a YouTubers reshoot of Starwars. That should have been scrapped.
I still think Disney has been bombing this on purpose.

[eschatological]

Wait, if the critics dislike it, that means y'all will like it, right? Cause that's how it is, you can't trust the opinion of the film experts?


Seems so, from that reddit post already, that the movie is "worth it" because it doesn't have "Rian Johnson's paws all over it?"

The cognitive dissonance in the SW community is fucking amazing.

[Nerovar]

Wait, if the critics dislike it, that means y'all will like it, right? Cause that's how it is, you can't trust the opinion of the film experts?


Seems so, from that reddit post already, that the movie is "worth it" because it doesn't have "Rian Johnson's paws all over it?"

The cognitive dissonance in the SW community is fucking amazing.

Are people actually saying that "if critics dislike it, it must be good"?

[eschatological]

Are people actually saying that "if critics dislike it, it must be good"?

They've said it in the past about every other movie on this forum. MMO-C is very suspicious of film critics.

Although in this case, posters pre-critical of the movie seem to using two critics' Twitter posts to say "OMG if even the paid shills don't like it, it must be horrible!!!!" Because, again, that's the world they live in. They did it for Solo, too, btw, and yet many of them ended up liking that movie.

[Kyphael]

Wait, if the critics dislike it, that means y'all will like it, right? Cause that's how it is, you can't trust the opinion of the film experts?


Seems so, from that reddit post already, that the movie is "worth it" because it doesn't have "Rian Johnson's paws all over it?"

The cognitive dissonance in the SW community is fucking amazing.

If you enjoyed The Last Jedi, great. To me, it was a a piece of trash movie and this one not having Rian Johnson's paw prints on it makes it instantly watchable. It was obvious from TLJ that Rian Johnson doesn't have a clue and should be kept as far away from Star Wars as possible. The Last Jedi was the first SW movie that I DIDN'T want to see it again, ever. Even Phantom Menace for all its flack, if I fast forward through Jar Jar Binks, the rest is pretty entertaining and I'll watch it if it's on. The last Jedi was just a disjointed and joyless film stripped of all fun and wonder which makes Star Wars what it is. Every character is terribly written and butchered, there is no payoff, no continuity from TfA, and it sets up nothing interesting.

"You're just a nobody's kid, left in the trash. You're trash." Well fucking great, Meg became a Jedi.
"Snoke's a chump, watch me cut him in half. Lulz, I'm the bad guy now." It's like if Anakin just cut Sidious in half in Episode III and became this weird, rebellious Dark Jedi with no direction.
"My name's Luke Skywalker, and I tried to kill my nephew and Padawan apprentice cause of feelings. Maybe it was that weird green milk I awkwardly sucked off the alien's tit. Yeah, let's blame it on that! I'm also a cranky, bitter old fart and fuck everything."

It was like a bunch of emo kids got together and wrote what they think would be a dream Fantasy Star Wars.

Let's not forget the spectacular ending that says every kid can be a Jedi if you just BELIEVE.

[Reydan]

There is no actual issue as your making up a narrative with out seeing any thing of the actual product. It’s apperntly impossible that any one would want to actually make a character they like into a movie just because you want some other hero movie. instead there just using the multieverse to push an agenda even though they are doing crisis on infinite earths right now and instead of filling it with minority supermen to push said invisible agenda they are using multiple white ones even though CW is supposedly the hight of social justice.

Your talking nonsense based off nothing.

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Eh if they didn’t do it with the prequels when they had the chance I doudt they will now.

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“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben solo. It didn’t scare me enough then, it does now.

He doesn’t say kylo is the strongest ever but he does say he’s only felt such raw strength in Rey/kylo and Luke knows from tons of experience how stronger Vader was. Kylo/Rey might not have the extended material to actual show any of the strength but that doesn’t change that it is canon that they are stronger then Any one else luke met and anakin is a the top of that list.

I think you are taking Luke's quote out of context. Raw means Kylo has a lot of power in him but it's untamed and uncontrolled and so has Rey. Luke is scared because he failed ones and is afraid to fail again. Also I haven't said anything about Kylo or Rey being weak, but I don't see them being stronger than Anakin, Luke or Palpatine at this point or in potential.

Both Vader and Palpatine had mastered their skill in the force and combat so they don't have raw strength or powers, they had mastered it.

There is still no canonical truth and definitely not because of 1 quote that is being taken out of context by both you and Endus.

There is 1 movie to go so let's see how this will be sorted out.

[Fayolynn]

Why do people hate TLJ? It's the only SW film that actually has soul and wasn't a generic disney flick.

The only bad areas are the casino sections and the questionable decision to keep Finn alive.

Movie is meta.
The main plot involves a slow speed chase through space that has no tension.
No pay off for any of the mysteries brought up in TFA.
Hyper space ramming is both cheaper in resources and lives then building massive capital ships which means it should be the norm going forward.
Luke is ruined if you dont like him being a angry bitter old man or don't feel the movie justifies him being turned into an angry bitter old man.

Those are just some of the reasons people hate it. What do you mean it is the only SW movie with soul?

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I have very little knowledge of expanded material, even comics that might still be considered canon. I know Luke was definitely stronger than Vader in Episode 6, I saw him outright beat him, clean.

In E6 we see an angry Luke tapping into the Darkside beating Vader who is holding back because he doesnt want to kill his son. So yeah Luke won but Vader wasn't trying to win either.

[Endus]

"Snoke's a chump, watch me cut him in half. Lulz, I'm the bad guy now." It's like if Anakin just cut Sidious in half in Episode III and became this weird, rebellious Dark Jedi with no direction.

The problem with this argument is that you thought Snoke was the story equivalent of the Emperor from the OT.

He wasn't.

He's Dooku, from the Prequels.

Your incorrect assumption about his importance does not mean there's an error in the writing. It just means you were wrong in thinking Snoke was the "big bad".

"My name's Luke Skywalker, and I tried to kill my nephew and Padawan apprentice cause of feelings. Maybe it was that weird green milk I awkwardly sucked off the alien's tit. Yeah, let's blame it on that! I'm also a cranky, bitter old fart and fuck everything."

Luke's struggles with his leanings to the Dark Side was set in canon in Empire Strikes Back, and reconfirmed in RotJ.

That it's a character flaw he has always had is one of the ways TLJ remained true to the original trilogy.

Let's not forget the spectacular ending that says every kid can be a Jedi if you just BELIEVE.

A kid can use the Force.

Like basically every single Youngling the Jedi ever picked up in their thousands of years of history.

This isn't a change in anything in the lore. It's exactly how things always worked, with Force potential.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I think you are taking Luke's quote out of context. Raw means Kylo has a lot of power in him but it's untamed and uncontrolled and so has Rey. Luke is scared because he failed ones and is afraid to fail again. Also I haven't said anything about Kylo or Rey being weak, but I don't see them being stronger than Anakin, Luke or Palpatine at this point or in potential.

Both Vader and Palpatine had mastered their skill in the force and combat so they don't have raw strength or powers, they had mastered it.

There is still no canonical truth and definitely not because of 1 quote that is being taken out of context by both you and Endus.

There is 1 movie to go so let's see how this will be sorted out.

Skill and power are not the same thing in Starwars Luke would never say he’s seen such mastered strength in the force as it’s not how the force works you don’t get increases in raw strength from mastering the force like a video game. They point this out in the phantom Menace and the clone wars with anakin who has less mastery then every one else but more power even as a child.

Something not agreeing with you doesn’t mean it’s out of context. Kylo’s power is above any one Luke has met something snoke confirms when he says he thought Luke would get stronger to match kylo but Luke didn’t.

[Kyphael]

The problem with this argument is that you thought Snoke was the story equivalent of the Emperor from the OT.

He wasn't.

He's Dooku, from the Prequels.

Your incorrect assumption about his importance does not mean there's an error in the writing. It just means you were wrong in thinking Snoke was the "big bad".

Except he wasn't even a Dooku equivalent, he was a chump, a decoy. Waste of space and character for the sake of a twist that blew nobody away and contributed nothing else to the story. Dooku was the main villain of Episode II and Palpatine's right hand in orchestrating The Clone Wars. Snoke was a boogeyman.

Luke's struggles with his leanings to the Dark Side was set in canon in Empire Strikes Back, and reconfirmed in RotJ.

That it's a character flaw he has always had is one of the ways TLJ remained true to the original trilogy.

It's one thing to struggle with the dark side. Even in his darkest, lowest moment (end of Empire Strikes Back after finding out his father was a murderer, Han was maybe dead), Luke remained hopeful by Leia and his remaining friends' sides. The Last Jedi Luke was a man in the twilight of his years stripped of all hope, joy and kindness. Even Yoda in Dagobah in more depressing times was still hopeful for the future and could instill hope and wonder in Luke as well. Luke was unpleasant. He might as well have been wearing a bath robe and shaking his fist at Rey.

A kid can use the Force.

Like basically every single Youngling the Jedi ever picked up in their thousands of years of history.

This isn't a change in anything in the lore. It's exactly how things always worked, with Force potential.

Jedi took in children who were force sensitive. Even if we say the kid holding up the broom was force sensitive, it doesn't jive with the film's narrative. Becoming a Jedi is akin to the training and discipline required to be a samurai. A force sensitive kid with no training is at best someone who can occasionally move things with their mind. Luke established the Jedi were dead, and should remain so. What significance does a force sensitive kid have other than to either try to turn the Jedi into something it is fundamentally not (super heroes or wizards if you just BELIEVE?) Luke's gone. The Jedi way is a relic. Unless Rey is a fool, she's not going to try to re-create The Jedi Order, and risk repeating what happened to Luke. You can't have it both ways. You can't establish that Luke is perfectly in-character when he's saying the Jedi were flawed, then end the movie showing a force sensitive kid, for what? It's a red herring.

[Gorsameth]

The problem with this argument is that you thought Snoke was the story equivalent of the Emperor from the OT.

He wasn't.

He's Dooku, from the Prequels.

Your incorrect assumption about his importance does not mean there's an error in the writing. It just means you were wrong in thinking Snoke was the "big bad".



Luke's struggles with his leanings to the Dark Side was set in canon in Empire Strikes Back, and reconfirmed in RotJ.

That it's a character flaw he has always had is one of the ways TLJ remained true to the original trilogy.



A kid can use the Force.

Like basically every single Youngling the Jedi ever picked up in their thousands of years of history.

This isn't a change in anything in the lore. It's exactly how things always worked, with Force potential.

And yet Dooku had a place. He was Yoda's apprentice, turned to the dark side. Brushed aside by Sidious to be replaced by his new and better version in Anakin. We saw him orchestrate things. We saw him beat Obiwan and Anakin and then lose in the rematch because Anakin has become so much stronger (showing a progress Rey never had to display). He is a challenge to overcome for the 'hero'.

Snoke is Dooku if Episode 2 didn't exist. A guy that shows up for 10 seconds and dies like a chump with a backstory that hints at being rich and worth exploring (who is he, where did he come from, who taught him, did he form the First Order, did he take them over?) but gets closed off without any ceremony.

Heck even without Episode 2 Dooku is a more compelling character because his death sets up Palpatines evilness (ignoring ep 4-6 as a known backstory you have the captured chancellor of the Republic telling a young Jedi to kill his defenceless prisoner)
Knowing Palpatines is Sidious it shows us that Anakin is now in his grasp.

It serves a purpose. Kaylo is still the same stupid angsty teenager with delusions of grandure before and after killing Snoke.

[Endus]

Skill and power are not the same thing in Starwars Luke would never say he’s seen such mastered strength in the force as it’s not how the force works you don’t get increases in raw strength from mastering the force like a video game.

To return to an earlier analogy, it's like hand to hand combat.

Strength matters. But often, not as much as training. A UFC fighter can't bench as much as a bodybuilder, but he'd almost certainly beat the shit out of the body builder in a fight, because skill outplays strength. That training lets you focus impacts to be harder, sharper, it gives you less wasted energy, etc. Strength still matters, and definitely will make the difference in a fight between equally-skilled fighters, but it's not the only factor in play.

Something not agreeing with you doesn’t mean it’s out of context. Kylo’s power is above any one Luke has met something snoke confirms when he says he thought Luke would get stronger to match kylo but Luke didn’t.

That's how most of this goes.

"TLJ sucks because X disagrees with my headcanon!"
"Well, your headcanon is wrong; the canon says so."
"But my headcanon!"

People are just wrong about stuff and won't admit it, and if the canon films say they're wrong multiple times, well, it's the films that must be wrong, not the one fan.

[StillMcfuu]

The problem with this argument is that you thought Snoke was the story equivalent of the Emperor from the OT.

He wasn't.

He's Dooku, from the Prequels.

Your incorrect assumption about his importance does not mean there's an error in the writing. It just means you were wrong in thinking Snoke was the "big bad".



Luke's struggles with his leanings to the Dark Side was set in canon in Empire Strikes Back, and reconfirmed in RotJ.

That it's a character flaw he has always had is one of the ways TLJ remained true to the original trilogy.



A kid can use the Force.

Like basically every single Youngling the Jedi ever picked up in their thousands of years of history.

This isn't a change in anything in the lore. It's exactly how things always worked, with Force potential.

Snoke is hardly Dooku:

Dooku: Jedi, respected by the order, extremely powerful, just from a plot stand point he is a good marker for how powerful Obiwan and Anakin had become.
Dooku accessed the Jedi archives and erased multiple planets from the DB.
Dooku paid for the clone army and choose Jango Fett to be the template.

Snoke: sat in a chair, large boi, has scars, died a bums death.

[Kyphael]

A UFC fighter can't bench as much as a bodybuilder, but he'd almost certainly beat the shit out of the body builder in a fight, because skill outplays strength. That training lets you focus impacts to be harder, sharper, it gives you less wasted energy, etc. Strength still matters, and definitely will make the difference in a fight between equally-skilled fighters, but it's not the only factor in play.

Lol, strength still counts for a lot, and at one point is undeniable. If you Floyd Mayweather or Conor McGregor against any 200+ pound weightlifter, it's not going to end well for the trained boxer and mixed martial arts fighters. Their strikes aren't even going to hurt the weightlifter and when they get their hands on Floyd or Conor, they're going to twist them up into a pretzel and that'll be the end of that.

My point is, unmitigated power, albeit unfocused, can make a huge difference in a fight or contest.