Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Endus]

The thing is, at the start of the movie when the Resistance makes the decision to float for 18 hours, they had to do that instead of jumping to hyperspace because they have so little fuel they'd be unable to move after just one jump, making them sitting ducks waiting for slaughter because of that tracking device. Meaning that the fleet had an X amount of fuel that could have been used either for one jump or for 18 hours of floating, with it being made clear that there's only one, shared fuel source for both.

Which means that Finn's and Jar Jar's journey makes no sense whatsoever. Because their goal was to disable the tracking device of the First Order so that the fleet could jump away in the six minutes time window where the tracking would be offline. Yet by the time they got to the finish line of infiltrating the First Order's flagship, most of that time ran out, to the point that the fleet was running on fumes, with some of the ships having already ran out of fuel. I.e. by the time they infiltrated that ship the fleet had maybe 1% of that X amount of fuel, if even that. Which means they didn't have enough fuel left for the jump and Finn and Jar Jar could have disabled the tracker for six years instead of six minutes and it wouldn't have made any difference.

But the movie never recognizes it, because Abrams likely didn't even spot the issue here. Not a single character involved - Finn, Jar Jar, Poe, the crew member that helped them out, C3PO - even hiccups about it. As such the viewer is expected to believe that if not for the last minute betrayal of Del Toro's character, the plan would have worked out. But it couldn't have worked out because of basic math. As such, that entire plot, which makes for a huge part of the movie, is completely devoid of tension. That plan was doomed to failure from the get go, regardless of Del Toro. Making it, i.e. the core part of the main plot of the movie, a complete waste of time.

There's a pretty simple point here that you're overlooking, and you're probably gonna feel a bit silly.

We know the Resistance flagship had fuel for one more jump, even at the very end. Absolutely, 100% confirmed.

How do we know this? Holdo jumped the ship to Hyperspace. That was the lightspeed ram everyone's been complaining about.

The simplest explanation is that they probably had the fuel to drift for 18 hours before they got below the level required for one last jump. And that the fuel to coast that long wasn't enough for a second jump; they had 1.5 jumps or something, and half a jump's fuel is enough for 18 hours of sublight, or whatever.

That the Raddus made that one last jump shows that you're wrong about something, somewhere, in that breakdown, though.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Uh...what? There's not very much that's recognizable in the movies that has a reflection in the EU. I mean, sure, those of us who have read most of the EU books can stretch some things and make some comparisons, but both KK and JJ basically said they ignored the source material. So whatever similarities there are would seem to be pure coincidence.

Sorta like what happened with The Last Airbender. Superficially there's some similarities, but when you get down into it the movies are basically nothing like the original material. It's a pretty common theme with Hollywood: Take something that's already popular, make whatever the fuck content you want, slap the popular name on it, cash in. That's more or less exactly what they did with 7-9.

Disclaimer: At least as far as I can tell, anyway.

TFA was a kinda reboot to get us a cast as the old characters to two old. TLJis mostly out of left field but after that they went right into Eu stuff with TROS but with a worse cast.

If you haven’t read it or don’t remember the dark empire series you should give it a glance a large amount of TROS is right out of it. Though I wouldn’t recommend more then a glance but I hated the series and it kinda tainted my view of the post return EU so Mabye you’ll enjoy it more.

[Mehrunes]

There's a pretty simple point here that you're overlooking, and you're probably gonna feel a bit silly.

We know the Resistance flagship had fuel for one more jump, even at the very end. Absolutely, 100% confirmed.

How do we know this? Holdo jumped the ship to Hyperspace. That was the lightspeed ram everyone's been complaining about.

The simplest explanation is that they probably had the fuel to drift for 18 hours before they got below the level required for one last jump. And that the fuel to coast that long wasn't enough for a second jump; they had 1.5 jumps or something, and half a jump's fuel is enough for 18 hours of sublight, or whatever.

That the Raddus made that one last jump shows that you're wrong about something, somewhere, in that breakdown, though.

I'm not going to feel silly whatsoever because I rewatched the relevant bit of TLJ before writing my post to make sure. The bit about having enough fuel only for one jump (and getting out of fuel after it) is their initial response to Snoke's fleet getting back on their asses as making the jump was their instinctive reaction. As in, they flat out said they'd be out of fuel after just one jump. Not that they'd be able to float for 18 hours after that jump, but unable to make the second one. "We have enough fuel for just one jump". "If we jump they'll just track us again and we'll be out of fuel". Those are literal quotes from the relevant scene.

The whole part of 18 hour floating came only 15 minutes later as a response to being unable to jump and having to do something (not only with the fuel but themselves in general) other than letting the First Order just kill them all. As in that 18 hours of drifting was not yet on their radar when they talked about being out of fuel after a jump in the previous scene. So no, they most certainly did not have enough fuel to make the jump AND drift for 18 hours.

Holdo's nonsense can at best be explained with it being the hyperspace equivalent of a step that wouldn't have changed the Resistance's fate. Or, more likely, with it being yet another plot hole in a sloppy script that paid only cursory attention to the whole fuel bit, where the only thing that mattered was whether it provided some tension and stakes or not (and paid even less attention to Holdo's maneuver, where the only thing that mattered in turn was having a rule of kewl moment).

Unless you want to tell me that "out of fuel" and "enough fuel for 18 hours of drifting yet not enough for a second jump" mean the same thing in English. In which case, be my guest but personally I'm going to stick to real English rather than that fantasy.

[PACOX]

Uh...what? There's not very much that's recognizable in the movies that has a reflection in the EU. I mean, sure, those of us who have read most of the EU books can stretch some things and make some comparisons, but both KK and JJ basically said they ignored the source material. So whatever similarities there are would seem to be pure coincidence.

Sorta like what happened with The Last Airbender. Superficially there's some similarities, but when you get down into it the movies are basically nothing like the original material. It's a pretty common theme with Hollywood: Take something that's already popular, make whatever the fuck content you want, slap the popular name on it, cash in. That's more or less exactly what they did with 7-9.

Disclaimer: At least as far as I can tell, anyway.

TROS is straight-up EU stories. I actually think they did the stories better because I think the EU is a bit of a hot mess. The story was very predictable though considering where they going with some of the canon books. As soon as they had a Sith come back in the Vader comics + more emphasis on the Empire exploring the Unknown Regions it became obvious where the story was going to go.

I also don't know what interviews you read because it would appear KK and JJ are straight-up lying in them. TROS canonized, if only by name, a bunch of EU stuff. The VD has enough to keep any lore nerd busy for days.

While we're here, people have to stop complaining about there not being a hard plan for the ST. Not one Star Wars movie was completely pre-planned. They didn't even plan on the OT to be a trilogy and there's even errors between ESB and RotJ because they weren't sure where the story was going to go. Lucas knew how the Prequels would end but a lot of meat he sort just made up/added/removed as he went. Both RO and Solo were changed several times. The franchise never detailed outlines. I would bet the most planned thing SW thing ever done was Rebels and The Mandalorian.

[I Push Buttons]

Finally my opinion is here!

"I don't want to say 'if you legitimately like this film, you have a low IQ'... BUT, if you legitimately like this film, you have a low IQ."

[Florena]

(oh the whole WOKE Outrage) Every major corporate run Fan Franchise has done this sometimes success sometimes not, but it is a Business decision and would be done with or without Kennedy.

People on here hear a lot of unsubstantiated rumors they post about with no facts to back up. Star Wars as a whole is very profitable and it's profit has always been directly tied to the films success. Disney isn't going to fire someone doing such a good job on their multi billion dollar purchase, even if it's lacking in one area. (which I have yet to see any proof) The entire franchise is doing much better than it's been in decades. A whole new generation have kids have bought into (their) Star Wars and those are customers for life.

There are definitely issues I have with the Disney star wars moves (despite still enjoying them overall.) But I never understood the whole 'woke/feminists are ruining star wars' complaints etc. The flaws in the new trilogy have nothing to do with Finn being black or Rey being a woman or any 'woke' parts of the movies. The problems are in the writing, and not issues that are caused by being some SJW conspiracy.

[Relapses]

I'm not going to feel silly whatsoever because I rewatched the relevant bit of TLJ before writing my post to make sure. The bit about having enough fuel only for one jump (and getting out of fuel after it) is their initial response to Snoke's fleet getting back on their asses as making the jump was their instinctive reaction. As in, they flat out said they'd be out of fuel after just one jump. Not that they'd be able to float for 18 hours after that jump, but unable to make the second one. "We have enough fuel for just one jump". "If we jump they'll just track us again and we'll be out of fuel". Those are literal quotes from the relevant scene.

The whole part of 18 hour floating came only 15 minutes later as a response to being unable to jump and having to do something (not only with the fuel but themselves in general) other than letting the First Order just kill them all. As in that 18 hours of drifting was not yet on their radar when they talked about being out of fuel after a jump in the previous scene. So no, they most certainly did not have enough fuel to make the jump AND drift for 18 hours.

Holdo's nonsense can at best be explained with it being the hyperspace equivalent of a step that wouldn't have changed the Resistance's fate. Or, more likely, with it being yet another plot hole in a sloppy script that paid only cursory attention to the whole fuel bit, where the only thing that mattered was whether it provided some tension and stakes or not (and paid even less attention to Holdo's maneuver, where the only thing that mattered in turn was having a rule of kewl moment).

Unless you want to tell me that "out of fuel" and "enough fuel for 18 hours of drifting yet not enough for a second jump" mean the same thing in English. In which case, be my guest but personally I'm going to stick to real English rather than that fantasy.

For somebody who hates the movie so much you sure seem obsessed with telling everybody about the exact and specific reasons it sucks.

[PACOX]

if palpatine was so into cloning why not just clone himself over and over like snoke?

did his power in the force need a stronger vessel like luke or ben or rey? why couldn't it just be a palpatine clone?

was palpatine looking at anakin before the unfortunate fire to be a vessel?

One thing Disney wrote out of Palpatine's character was the EU character trait that he's always been in it for himself. He is the most Sith, Sith. He wanted to reestablish the Sith Empire, for the Sith. He took out the Jedi, for the Sith. He wanted Rey to kill him, for the Sith. It wasn't about his own self-preservation so he didn't bother cloning himself. He was simply lingering vessel of the might of the Sith that he needed to transfer into someone else per Sith doctrine/magic/Rule of Two. The only thing Sith hold higher than themselves is the transfer of power. If you're not strong enough to uphold your duty i.e. you no longer have anything to offer your apprentice/the next generation, its time to die. Its survival of the fittest and you're no longer top dog so get off the porch.

The characterizations of Palps and Vader in Disney canon sort of suggests that Palps was ready to for a transfer of power in the throne room of RotJ. Either he died because Vader was ready or Vader died because Vader failed to be the top dog in the galaxy and he (Palps) would start over with Luke. Either way, somebody had to go. Not unlike the night when Anakin turned. Palps put himself in a losing situation. Either his plan was successful Vader was a good candidate and the Sith lived on - or he was a failure and the Sith died.

[Endus]

I'm not going to feel silly whatsoever because I rewatched the relevant bit of TLJ before writing my post to make sure. The bit about having enough fuel only for one jump (and getting out of fuel after it) is their initial response to Snoke's fleet getting back on their asses as making the jump was their instinctive reaction. As in, they flat out said they'd be out of fuel after just one jump. Not that they'd be able to float for 18 hours after that jump, but unable to make the second one. "We have enough fuel for just one jump". "If we jump they'll just track us again and we'll be out of fuel". Those are literal quotes from the relevant scene.

The whole part of 18 hour floating came only 15 minutes later as a response to being unable to jump and having to do something (not only with the fuel but themselves in general) other than letting the First Order just kill them all. As in that 18 hours of drifting was not yet on their radar when they talked about being out of fuel after a jump in the previous scene. So no, they most certainly did not have enough fuel to make the jump AND drift for 18 hours.

Holdo's nonsense can at best be explained with it being the hyperspace equivalent of a step that wouldn't have changed the Resistance's fate. Or, more likely, with it being yet another plot hole in a sloppy script that paid only cursory attention to the whole fuel bit, where the only thing that mattered was whether it provided some tension and stakes or not (and paid even less attention to Holdo's maneuver, where the only thing that mattered in turn was having a rule of kewl moment).

Unless you want to tell me that "out of fuel" and "enough fuel for 18 hours of drifting yet not enough for a second jump" mean the same thing in English. In which case, be my guest but personally I'm going to stick to real English rather than that fantasy.

The Raddus was able to make one last jump after that 18 hours of sublight travel.

That's the simple facts, as shown in the film. It isn't a "plot hole"; you have to pretend that statements made without specificity could only possibly mean one specific thing to try and create a plot hole. Once you accept they might have meant something else (like my point about the rate of fuel consumption between Hyperspace jumps and sublight travel), you no longer have a hole. And in any reasonable analysis, this would mean your specific interpretation is an incorrect one.

What you're describing here is not a problem with The Last Jedi's plot and dialogue, it's a problem with your reasoning. You are making assumptions that the film does not support, and the outcome in the film shows those assumptions to be false.

[Kokolums]

"I don't want to say 'if you legitimately like this film, you have a low IQ'... BUT, if you legitimately like this film, you have a low IQ."

That's what I'm saying. Its a Michael Bay film. Its for the lowest common denominator. Ignore the plot! Look! More explosions!

[Endus]

That's what I'm saying. Its a Michael Bay film. Its for the lowest common denominator. Ignore the plot! Look! More explosions!

You could have just said "It's a Star Wars film".

Star Wars has literally always been like this.

[Nuba]

the movie you saw was Cats bro, not star wars

even the people that enjoyed it for fanservice reasons know it had basically no plot, the acting was worse than weekend public plays and the coreography for the fights was miles behind the prequels, just random senseless sidejumps 24/7

but hey, if you dont think so, lets agree to disagree then

[Kokolums]

You could have just said "It's a Star Wars film".

Star Wars has literally always been like this.

Actually no. There is a *big* difference between a Michael Bay film that clearly is just there for the spectacle, the special effects, to be watched on the big screen....and an actual thoughtful sci-fi film that is character-driven or trying to sort out issues. Star Wars films were always thoughtful films. As much as the sci-fi is a big part of it, its been just as much if not more about dealing with issues and themes and competing philosophies. Its about Anakin sitting in a chair next to Palpatine having a conversation and trying to decide between following the Jedi way or doing what is best for himself.

This film truly doesn't feel like a Star Wars film. Its just about blowing things up and moving quickly to the next scene.

People aren't walking out of a Transformers film debating the moral philosophies between Optimus Prime and Megatron. They are just there for explosions. RoS is in the Transformers style.

[Axxil]

Such a horrible misplaced argument. In ANH Luke only succeeds because of the supporting cast keeping him alive long enough to use the training he recieved from Obi-Wan that he only remembers to use because Obi-Wan was able to speak to him from beyond the grave. TFA ended up making a joke about how Rey didnt need other people to help her, ontop of that she beats the primary antagonist of the movie in both a test of will's and direct one on one combat.

The two arnt even close.

I could beat Connor McGreggor in a fight after he was shot. Your argument has no grounds.

[Endus]

Actually no. There is a *big* difference between a Michael Bay film that clearly is just there for the spectacle, the special effects, to be watched on the big screen....and an actual thoughtful sci-fi film that is character-driven or trying to sort out issues. Star Wars films were always thoughtful films. As much as the sci-fi is a big part of it, its been just as much if not more about dealing with issues and themes and competing philosophies. Its about Anakin sitting in a chair next to Palpatine having a conversation and trying to decide between following the Jedi way or doing what is best for himself.

This film truly doesn't feel like a Star Wars film. Its just about blowing things up and moving quickly to the next scene.

People aren't walking out of a Transformers film debating the moral philosophies between Optimus Prime and Megatron. They are just there for explosions. RoS is in the Transformers style.

I mean, they literally have those "have a chat about the issue" scenes throughout RoS. So at this point, I have no clue where you're even coming from with all this.

Ben Solo throwing off Kylo Ren, at last.
Rey and the Emperor (standing next to a chair, for that matter).
Ben's final moments, cementing that first one.

Just off the top of my head. I'm sure I'm overlooking others.

[Axxil]

Just realized something that's REALLY stupid they repeated for nostalgia.
After Rey kisses Kylo she declares herself a Skywalker
How FUCKING stupid is that? She's now his fucking cousin/sister.

Skywalker is a title.

[Kokolums]

I mean, they literally have those "have a chat about the issue" scenes throughout RoS. So at this point, I have no clue where you're even coming from with all this.

Ben Solo throwing off Kylo Ren, at last.
Rey and the Emperor (standing next to a chair, for that matter).
Ben's final moments, cementing that first one.

Just off the top of my head. I'm sure I'm overlooking others.

No, they don't. Seriously. RoS just throws as much as it can at the audience and keeps moving.

[Endus]

No, they don't. Seriously. RoS just throws as much as it can at the audience and keeps moving.

I just pointed to three cases where it didn't, and you're hand-waving it.

RoS has as much thought and philosophy in it as RotJ does.

[Kokolums]

I just pointed to three cases where it didn't, and you're hand-waving it.

RoS has as much thought and philosophy in it as RotJ does.

Because you can't distinguish between a Michael Bay film and a thoughtful film. The plot the story the characters in Ros are meaningless.

[Relapses]

Actually no. There is a *big* difference between a Michael Bay film that clearly is just there for the spectacle, the special effects, to be watched on the big screen....and an actual thoughtful sci-fi film that is character-driven or trying to sort out issues. Star Wars films were always thoughtful films. As much as the sci-fi is a big part of it, its been just as much if not more about dealing with issues and themes and competing philosophies. Its about Anakin sitting in a chair next to Palpatine having a conversation and trying to decide between following the Jedi way or doing what is best for himself.

This film truly doesn't feel like a Star Wars film. Its just about blowing things up and moving quickly to the next scene.

People aren't walking out of a Transformers film debating the moral philosophies between Optimus Prime and Megatron. They are just there for explosions. RoS is in the Transformers style.

There's a faint tinge of irony in you saying that Bay directs mainly for the big screen when his last movie was direct-to-Netflix. He's a director who occupies a very specific niche when it comes to movies, though it's a stretch to say RoS resembled anything close to this:



JJ's films have always kind of blended Michael Bay with certain nerdier segments of the population. His two SW movies very closely resemble his contributions to the new Star Trek movies. I don't hate the guy for making the movie the way he did. I don't even hate RoS that much. I just hate how Rian teed up the next director to take the trilogy into uncharted territory and instead JJ came back and said, "yeah, fuck that noise."