Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Kithelle]

So, your argument is Rey is a Mary Sue because Rey is a Mary Sue because you feel she is one ... and I am the one going LALALALALALA and sticking fingers in my ear?

She is not perfect, therefor you are lying. If that is what you choose to apply logic ... guess what? Luke Skywalker (Luke S) is a wishfulment of George Lucas ... which means Star Wars protagonists have always Mary Sues thus the complaint of Rey being a Mary Sue is garbage.

You do know that both Legends and Canon have implied that the Chosen one is garbage right? Seriously, you don't get to say something violates Lore when it is essentially already debated in Lore. In Legends, Anakin didn't bring an end to the Sith ... at all. There were always Sith around, Palpatine returned, etc ... it was clear in Legends, the Chosen One was merely an in universe LEGEND.

Also, in Disney Canon, Obi-wan felt Luke was the Chosen One ... not Anakin. Yoda felt it was Leia ... not Luke or Anakin. Seriously, it is suggested strongly in all sources the chosen one is a myth. So no, Rey being the "real" or "next" Chosen one does not violate anything.

Gee ... a brunette young woman being a Star Wars female lead ... never seen that before ever. It isn't like Leia was a brunette or Padme ... oh wait ... they were.

Also, Kathleen Kennedy is American, she was born in Berkeley, CA and went to school in California ... why are you calling her "English"? Her mother was from New York State. And her father was born in California too ... why the hell did you post of meme calling her English?

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I was more pointing out that the statement "Luke doesn't have a special quality" when he is literally a child of destiny was false. I have no problems with the rest of your argument... I just support using consistent logic. You aren't applying the same logic to Rey as Luke ... you are drawing arbitrary lines and claiming they are significant enough.

It's not because I feel she is one, it's because she is one.

She flies a large unwiedly freighter with mastery that even had the previous owner in awe...after never having flown it before.
She repairs the ship when seemingly her own skill is locating pieces for salvage
She doesn't even know she is force sensitive and she uses complex skills after closing her eyes and taking a deep breath
She never even used a lightsaber and easily defeated a trained Sith by closing her eyes and taking a deep breath, just like above
She is practically able to raise a mountain, once again with no training at all

If all it took was a 10 second upload then why did all Jedi and Sith spend decades training their apprentices? Why don't they just upload their knowledge and be done with it?

If all it took was having the force to be able to be a master pilot, then why did Anakin lose all his pod races till the one he did win? With Jedi being instant masters he should of been a pod racing master and won enough to buy him and his mother's freedom.

She is a Mary Sue....she had everything handed to her with no skill or training...even when she was seemingly "in danger" something happened and proved she was never in danger in the first place.

So sorry....it's not opinion it's fact.

"A Mary Sue is a character who is so perfect that he or she warps the world around them to display their perfection. It seems as though nothing in this universe except Mary Sue is even real, and is instead a plot device to make Mary Sue seem flawless and loved. A Mary Sue can destroy a piece of writing or media, since the characters existence will often forcibly make the world and people around them defy logic to simply display how amazingly radiant they are. "

Rey does this...she warps the world around her, warps the force so with no training at all...she also destroys the Disney Trilogy because all of the other characters are extraordinarily bad just to make her look better.

Captain Phasma was a character with great potential but was made into a joke
Rose Tico was badly written and dressed like a potato sack, made to look ugly (She is adorable IRL) so Rey looks better
Admiral Holdo was a fucking moron, once again makes Rey look better

Finn had great potential, but completely undid his development in TLJ so he was back where he started and then Rose killed his moment (And in their infinite wisdom made the black man the janitor)
Poe was basically emasculated so in the end he looked dumb and Holdo even dumber

Basically every character in the movie looks stupid so Rey looks ever more smarter and more radiant.

Mary textbook Sue, not my fault you can't accept it.

[Askyl]

It's not because I feel she is one, it's because she is one.

She flies a large unwiedly freighter with mastery that even had the previous owner in awe...after never having flown it before.
She repairs the ship when seemingly her own skill is locating pieces for salvage
She doesn't even know she is force sensitive and she uses complex skills after closing her eyes and taking a deep breath
She never even used a lightsaber and easily defeated a trained Sith by closing her eyes and taking a deep breath, just like above
She is practically able to raise a mountain, once again with no training at all

If all it took was a 10 second upload then why did all Jedi and Sith spend decades training their apprentices? Why don't they just upload their knowledge and be done with it?

If all it took was having the force to be able to be a master pilot, then why did Anakin lose all his pod races till the one he did win? With Jedi being instant masters he should of been a pod racing master and won enough to buy him and his mother's freedom.

She is a Mary Sue....she had everything handed to her with no skill or training...even when she was seemingly "in danger" something happened and proved she was never in danger in the first place.

So sorry....it's not opinion it's fact.

"A Mary Sue is a character who is so perfect that he or she warps the world around them to display their perfection. It seems as though nothing in this universe except Mary Sue is even real, and is instead a plot device to make Mary Sue seem flawless and loved. A Mary Sue can destroy a piece of writing or media, since the characters existence will often forcibly make the world and people around them defy logic to simply display how amazingly radiant they are. "

Rey does this...she warps the world around her, warps the force so with no training at all...she also destroys the Disney Trilogy because all of the other characters are extraordinarily bad just to make her look better.

Captain Phasma was a character with great potential but was made into a joke
Rose Tico was badly written and dressed like a potato sack, made to look ugly (She is adorable IRL) so Rey looks better
Admiral Holdo was a fucking moron, once again makes Rey look better

Finn had great potential, but completely undid his development in TLJ so he was back where he started and then Rose killed his moment (And in their infinite wisdom made the black man the janitor)
Poe was basically emasculated so in the end he looked dumb and Holdo even dumber

Basically every character in the movie looks stupid so Rey looks ever more smarter and more radiant.

Mary textbook Sue, not my fault you can't accept it.

This x100. And I'd love to add that being a Mary Sue doesn't instantly mean it's something negative. But in Star Wars it is, since it's not how the world have been built, it's illogical in the SW realm to have a Mary Sue.

But for example John Wick is a Mary Sue in some ways as well. Even if he's had "training", he's better than 15 elite soldiers combined, can withstand INHUMAN amount of pain and punches. Always ends up surviving situations that are impossible etc. But it works for that type of movie. John Wick is amazing.

I think the new Star Wars are 10/10 when it comes to music, sound, effects and visual orgasms. But 2/10 when it's down to the story =/

[PACOX]

Ranking by trilogy.

Prequels:

1. Revenge of the Sith
2. The Phantom Menace
3. Attack of the Clone

Original:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi

Sequels:

1. The Last Jedi
2. The Force Awakens
3. The Rise of Skywalker

[Darththeo]

It's not because I feel she is one, it's because she is one.

She flies a large unwiedly freighter with mastery that even had the previous owner in awe...after never having flown it before.
She repairs the ship when seemingly her own skill is locating pieces for salvage
She doesn't even know she is force sensitive and she uses complex skills after closing her eyes and taking a deep breath
She never even used a lightsaber and easily defeated a trained Sith by closing her eyes and taking a deep breath, just like above
She is practically able to raise a mountain, once again with no training at all

First off, no, she didn't have "awe of Han" ... literally never happened, Han was in awe of how fast she bypassed the added compressor. And she didn't fly the Falcon better than Han, that's an opinion ... not a fact. You can't compare the OT to the ST because of the increased technology over the last nearly 40 years.

The Falcon canonly isn't even the first ship she repaired. She grew up around spacers, her knowing how to fix a ship isn't surprising or remotely "Mary Suedom" ... seriously, we accept a Farmboy can fly a military piece of hardware under no movie explanation outside (he is a pilot). Well, just because a person can fly a crop duster doesn't mean they can fly an F-16. We accept a slave who was never in a space ship before a few days manages to fly a ship better than trained pilots. But, someone flying the Falcon other than Han ... UNACCEPTABLE! When the Falcon is a freighter of a massed produced variety that has had modifications ... including a literal pilot droid for its nav computer.

What proven "complex" skill did she use? Answer: None. It is head canon, it is not stated anyway in canon that the mind trick is a difficult force ability. And we have Force healing done by an untrained child in lore. Something tease in Episode 2 of the Mandalorian, even though not seen until the penultimate episode. The mind trick we see Obi-wan use is the more mild version of it, Kylo's mind invasion is a more advanced technique because rather than merely influencing someone you are forcing them.

She beat Kylo Ren after he told her that he can train her in the Force. The Force "partially controls our actions." per Obi-wan episode IV. Kylo was injured, not a Sith and had no desire to kill her. Her hit on him was literally no different than Luke with the blaster shield down. The novelization of the TFA has Kylo ready to get up after that and the fight ends due to the chasm opening up, not the hit. Even the movie shows Kylo working to get up before the chasm opens.

She moved rocks. Size matters not ... Episode V. So far you have yet to show any Mary Sue trait other than you label her May Sue ... shall we continue?

If all it took was a 10 second upload then why did all Jedi and Sith spend decades training their apprentices? Why don't they just upload their knowledge and be done with it?

Because you can always train to get better? Luke becomes a Knight in 4 years of mostly self taught lessons. I mean come on. And from the Jedi training we see, it appears that it more to help it be either more natural for them and to get by mental blocks the people may have. "You must unlearn what you have learned."

If all it took was having the force to be able to be a master pilot, then why did Anakin lose all his pod races till the one he did win? With Jedi being instant masters he should of been a pod racing master and won enough to buy him and his mother's freedom.

Because he crashed and we know that Sebula cheats. We know podracing is dangerous. It is possible in other races, Sebula had cheated and that lead to the crash ... we don't see the other races so anything here is head canon. He also flew for Watto, not for himself, any winnings would have been Watto's. Seriously, do you even like know Star Wars Lore? Did you even watch the movies? Also, Anakin, having NEVER been in a space ship before he met Qui-Gon, later in the same movie flies a N-1 starfighter. So, it kind of discounts your argument here.

She is a Mary Sue....she had everything handed to her with no skill or training...even when she was seemingly "in danger" something happened and proved she was never in danger in the first place.

So sorry....it's not opinion it's fact.

"It's not opinion it's fact" while stated something not only an opinion, but factually wrong. TFA, caught by Kylo ... even escaping from the cell, she is still on an enemy base and has to get off ... by definition, that's "in danger" and she only gets off the planet because of Finn and Chewie, without their presence, we do not know what would happen.

TLJ, turned herself over to Kylo, to stand in front of the big bad as we knew it of the Sequel trilogy. Yes, there is bad editing there, but that isn't really on Rey's fault. That again, is by its very nature in danger.

And do I really need to go into RoS where she died or was close to death? Her "never in danger" argument is so bad that it applies to Luke ... Oh, Luke was never in danger, he managed to escape the Wampa. He escaped Vader, etc ... it is so bad.

Rey does this...she warps the world around her, warps the force so with no training at all...she also destroys the Disney Trilogy because all of the other characters are extraordinarily bad just to make her look better.

You haven't proved she does. You have claimed she does.

Captain Phasma was a character with great potential but was made into a joke
Rose Tico was badly written and dressed like a potato sack, made to look ugly (She is adorable IRL) so Rey looks better
Admiral Holdo was a fucking moron, once again makes Rey look better

Finn had great potential, but completely undid his development in TLJ so he was back where he started and then Rose killed his moment (And in their infinite wisdom made the black man the janitor)
Poe was basically emasculated so in the end he looked dumb and Holdo even dumber

Basically every character in the movie looks stupid so Rey looks ever more smarter and more radiant.

Mary textbook Sue, not my fault you can't accept it.

And this is garbage. It isn't my fault you don't understand anything about Star Wars and just hate Rey so you call her a Mary Sue to make it seem like you aren't being hypocritical.

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TLR: You used opinions, ignored canon, used head canon, and spouted nonsensical garbage to claim Rey is a Mary Sue claiming it is a fact, when it isn't. So do you have any actual arguments or are you just going to argue she is a Mary Sue because you feel she is again thinking you aren't making that argument?

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Ranking by trilogy.

Prequels:

1. Revenge of the Sith
2. The Phantom Menace
3. Attack of the Clone

Original:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi

Sequels:

1. The Last Jedi
2. The Force Awakens
3. The Rise of Skywalker

Prequels:

1. Revenge of the Sith [best star wars movie]
2. rogue one [2nd best star wars movie]
rest is garbage

Original:

1. A New Hope
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Return of the Jedi

Sequels:

The Force Awakens
rest is nuclear stanky garbage

for me it's this definitely.

[Kathandira]

1: She flies a large unwiedly freighter with mastery that even had the previous owner in awe...after never having flown it before.
2: She repairs the ship when seemingly her own skill is locating pieces for salvage
3: She doesn't even know she is force sensitive and she uses complex skills after closing her eyes and taking a deep breath
4: She never even used a lightsaber and easily defeated a trained Sith by closing her eyes and taking a deep breath, just like above
5: She is practically able to raise a mountain, once again with no training at all

I mostly agree with you. A few things aren't quite as bad as some make them out to be.

1: When she begins to fly the Millennium Falcon, she nearly destroys it. She isn't a master right away.
2: She said that she had worked on it in the past.
3: Agreed. Her affinity to use powers she has zero understanding of is what I feel makes her a Mary Sue
4: Though we never seen her use a single sided weapon up to that point, we do see her using her staff very proficiently. She knows how to wield a weapon. It isn't that far of a stretch that she could quickly adapt to using a single sided weapon.
5: Agreed again, same as number 3.

[Ivanstone]

1. Revenge of the Sith [best star wars movie]

NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Also:


At least it was good source material for two really good cartoon series that are better than 7 of the movies.

[Kathandira]

What proven "complex" skill did she use? Answer: None. It is head canon, it is not stated anyway in canon that the mind trick is a difficult force ability. And we have Force healing done by an untrained child in lore. Something tease in Episode 2 of the Mandalorian, even though not seen until the penultimate episode. The mind trick we see Obi-wan use is the more mild version of it, Kylo's mind invasion is a more advanced technique because rather than merely influencing someone you are forcing them.

The thing is, she didn't know anything about the force at this point. To know that the Mind Trick is possible is the first problem, to be able to use it against a well trained force user is the second problem.

And imo, force healing can F right off. I hate that it has been introduced.

[Mormolyce]

Lucas own words on EU back in 2001

“I don’t read that stuff. I haven’t read any of the novels. I don’t know anything about that world. That’s a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.”

In other words it's not the same universe, ergo not canon. Different universes are different canons. Which is pretty much how Legends is now

If you go around taking George Lucas's word for Star Wars you're going to have a very sore head :P

It's pretty clear he didn't read much of the EU, he did pinch a few concepts though. But that's essentially just articulating the distinction between G and C-canon.

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Funding is just one small part of a long list of standard duties of a producer. They oversee the entire production of a film, and one of those pivotal roles is actually selecting a script to run with, as well as having a heavy hand in the filming/editing/directing coordination process. Basically, the reason why producers have such meddling powers is because they need the films to be made on time and within budget.

How much did KK influence the films? She's the final decision on the script to run with, as it has to be run by her. While there are a bunch of people doing the legwork underneath her doing the actual work, she has the final say as she's holding the paychecks. She's still responsible for the product that's put out because she has to approve all of it, and whether she approached these films in a hands-off fashion or a micromanager we'll never really know for certain. Power struggles between directors and producers are also not uncommon, either, as those decisions "made by an executive board" that people like to talk about? If those are true, it comes down through the producer in many cases.

Maybe, but I mean that's a lot of speculation. Rian Johnson stated in an interview unequivocally that he had complete free rein on writing his film for example.

Generally speaking producers are not in the creative side of the business.

[Altrec]

I honestly have no idea why everyone keeps bringing up Kathleen Kennedy, she doesn't write these films. Has she ever written or directed anything?

She's not even an equivalent of Kevin Feige. He's really in a unique position. She's just a regular old producer, they have fuck all to do with how good the story of a film is. They just deal with the funding.

Because the person holding the purse strings has the power to make changes that they want. They don't have to write or direct anything to impact a film. Studios and producers interfere with movies all the time and sometimes it is to devastating effect.

[Mormolyce]

And imo, force healing can F right off. I hate that it has been introduced.

I always thought it was silly that it didn't exist. The Jedi are supposed to be all about knowledge and defense, but they carry swords that can slice you into ribbons and can't heal anything?

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Because the person holding the purse strings has the power to make changes that they want. They don't have to write or direct anything to impact a film. Studios and producers interfere with movies all the time and sometimes it is to devastating effect.

Yes but again, that's pretty remote from the actual creative part of making a film. If you don't like a plot twist or character element, 99% of the time that wasn't anything to do with a producer.

[Elim Garak]

The thing is, she didn't know anything about the force at this point.

Incorrect

Rey : [in awe] The Jedi were real?
Han Solo : I used to wonder about that myself. Thought it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force, the Jedi. All of it. It's all true.

To know that the Mind Trick is possible is the first problem, to be able to use it against a well trained force user is the second problem.

Funny thing how some people learn things by observing and funny how force-sensitive people learn by being subjected to the exact mind trick by a well-trained force user.

Mysterious ways the Force works in.

And imo, force healing can F right off. I hate that it has been introduced.

Emotions are just that.

[Kathandira]

I always thought it was silly that it didn't exist. The Jedi are supposed to be all about knowledge and defense, but they carry swords that can slice you into ribbons and can't heal anything?

I personally don't like it because it is an all too convenient back door out of problems. And like many force powers, it can so easily be "forgotten" when the plot needs someone to die. It also makes you look back and think about all the times someone could simply have been healed through the force to save important people's lives. They should have left that one on the cutting room floor.

[Ahovv]

My biggest problem was the Rey is a Palpatine, and the stormtrooper girl might be Lando's kid. Individually, those things on their own aren't a problem. The thing is, there's way too much of that, with the bad guy turned good guy already being Han and Leia's kid. It reminds me of a JRPG, where every single character has some familial or deep interconnection to each other. It makes a big world just kind of seem very small and 'written'.

That's kind of inevitable when the Force is a thing.

[Kathandira]

Incorrect

Rey : [in awe] The Jedi were real?
Han Solo : I used to wonder about that myself. Thought it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force, the Jedi. All of it. It's all true.

Fair, she may have known of the legends. But that doesn't mean she knows about the abilities.

Funny thing how some people learn things by observing and funny how force-sensitive people learn by being subjected to the exact mind trick by a well-trained force user.

I can understand watching someone use a tool and picking that up by watching. But when it comes to something that is done by the power of the mind, I don't know if the same method of learning by observation applies. This could have been handled better as the way the scene was set up was like 2 kids playing an imagination game where one kids announces he has the power of fire, and the other kid one ups him by saying he also has fire, but it is stronger than the first kids. You can't just do that, lol.

[Altrec]

Yes but again, that's pretty remote from the actual creative part of making a film. If you don't like a plot twist or character element, 99% of the time that wasn't anything to do with a producer.

Yes, but at the same time if the producer says I want this to happen or this plot/character element to happen it often happens. How it happens doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible idea to begin with. From the little tidbits that have come out and/or been rumored Kathleen interfered a lot. Granted we don't know what that interference was exactly and maybe what she did made it less awful than what it would have been, but I think most peoples money is on her and other execs tinkering that made the movies as bad as they were. Ultimately the blame or praise was always going to be on her as she was the one in charge of the project.

[Fgalipios]

This x100. And I'd love to add that being a Mary Sue doesn't instantly mean it's something negative. But in Star Wars it is, since it's not how the world have been built, it's illogical in the SW realm to have a Mary Sue.

You do know everyone stops reading anything with the word "Mary Sue" in it on the grounds that any one who uses that term is an alt-right fucktard with a shaky grasp on reality?

[Altrec]

You do know everyone stops reading anything with the word "Mary Sue" in it on the grounds that any one who uses that term is an alt-right fucktard with a shaky grasp on reality?

You would be wrong. It is simply a descriptive term. It can also be subject to debate if a character is or isn't a Mary Sue, but that hardly makes it alt-right etc..

[Elim Garak]

Fair, she may have known of the legends. But that doesn't mean she knows about the abilities.

By her reaction alone it's quite obvious she didn't just know of the legends - she was a fangirl, nerdy fangirl who read everything about it and now she learns that it's all true!

I can understand watching someone use a tool and picking that up by watching. But when it comes to something that is done by the power of the mind, I don't know if the same method of learning by observation applies. This could have been handled better as the way the scene was set up was like 2 kids playing an imagination game where one kids announces he has the power of fire, and the other kid one ups him by saying he also has fire, but it is stronger than the first kids. You can't just do that, lol.

It's not the power of the mind. FFS. This is Star Wars! It's the power of the Force. That is a living force of the universe in Star Wars, the thing that connects all things, it has a will and means to express it. One who is attuned to it can cooperate with it - or subjugate it, or both.
I see no problem for any SW fan to understand how Rey learned that trick - or all her tricks.

[Kathandira]

By her reaction alone it's quite obvious she didn't just know of the legends - she was a fangirl, nerdy fangirl who read everything about it and now she learns that it's all true!


It's not the power of the mind. FFS. This is Star Wars! It's the power of the Force. That is a living force of the universe in Star Wars, the thing that connects all things, it has a will and means to express it. One who is attuned to it can cooperate with it - or subjugate it, or both.
I see no problem for any SW fan to understand how Rey learned that trick - or all her tricks.

That sounds like headcanon. It was never stated that she was some fan girl who knew all about the force and what it can do.

Yes, the force is a living thing that is everywhere. But to utilize it, it takes concentration and thought. Hence why meditation is so important to strengthen ones connection to the force. Clearing ones mind, visualizing what you want the force to do, this is how we've seen people get taught how to use the force before Rey just seemingly knows how to connect with it.