Poll: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  1. #5821
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Don't buy the books if you don't want. That's you choice. But don't act anyone owes you something or things simply don't exist because you don't want to participate.
    I am fine with the complaint he has. It is perfectly reasonable to want explanations on screen. But acting like "No that doesn't matter" when Disney was 100% clear that everything they do will be part of one canon story is what I have a problem with.

    This is something that has existed in Star Wars since it's beginning however.

    Why Luke can fly an X-wing? Well, the controls are like a T-16 skyhopper ... outside movie explanation.
    How did Han get the Falcon from Landon? In a sabacc game ... it was merely stated to have been won.
    How did Luke build a new lightsaber? He had Obi-wan's journal ... outside the movie explanation.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  2. #5822
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Only those that proved their loyalty would survive. His goal was to make an eternal Sith Empire. If it failed, it is because there was weakness.
    Then why were they kidnapping kids and not just breeding his loyal followers to raise their own indoctrinated kids? Or you know using the clones he had that had built in to be completely loyal?

    Also why would he have even needed to create the first order in the first place when he already had over 12 million followers on over 200 star destroyers with mini death star tech?
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-01-11 at 02:23 AM.

  3. #5823
    Emperor is retarded in this movie. Absolute caricature of ROTJ Palpatine.

  4. #5824
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babadoo View Post
    Emperor is retarded in this movie. Absolute caricature of ROTJ Palpatine.
    So the Emperor is the Emperor?

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  5. #5825
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Then why were they kidnapping kids and not just breeding his loyal followers to raise their own indoctrinated kids? Or you know using the clones he had that had built in to be completely loyal?

    Also why would he have even needed to create the first order in the first place when he already had over 12 million followers on over 200 star destroyers with mini death star tech?
    First off, do you know how strong indoctrination is?
    Also, clones in star wars aren't built to be "completely" loyal. They literally needed a chip to be certain they would follow Order 66 and it is even shown that Clones resisted Order 66, or some could attempt to.

    And yeah, there is no real defending the "Final Order" ... that made little sense to me, but given it's name, the First Order may have been the first steps. Something to keep the galaxy busy to avoid detection until the Final Order was ready.

    However, what made zero sense was how Palpatine announced his presence to the Galaxy in whole ... like why? That was the dumbest thing he did besides once again to turn off his Force Lightning.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  6. #5826
    Quote Originally Posted by Babadoo View Post
    Emperor is retarded in this movie. Absolute caricature of ROTJ Palpatine.
    Well there are people saying that the original Emperor was a clone and Snoke did say he created the bond between Kylo and Rey and this Emperor doesn't realize the bond exists between Rey and Kylo until he is going to drain them so I think the lore is just the Emperor is a senile old fuck or that he made clones much smarter than him even when he was controlling them....


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    First off, do you know how strong indoctrination is?
    Also, clones in star wars aren't built to be "completely" loyal. They literally needed a chip to be certain they would follow Order 66 and it is even shown that Clones resisted Order 66, or some could attempt to.

    And yeah, there is no real defending the "Final Order" ... that made little sense to me, but given it's name, the First Order may have been the first steps. Something to keep the galaxy busy to avoid detection until the Final Order was ready.

    However, what made zero sense was how Palpatine announced his presence to the Galaxy in whole ... like why? That was the dumbest thing he did besides once again to turn off his Force Lightning.
    Yeah and who were those clones of??? A merc. Do you really think cloning the millions of loyalists he had in waiting wouldn't have made for more loyal clones? Especially if they were so loyal he was willing to keep them after the first purge.

    Literally no one in the universe knew of Palpatine or the Sith planet who wasn't on it or in the First Order. And anyone who could have found it wouldn't have survived even 1 star destroyer to tell anyone. Yes his announcing himself was completely stupid but so was even making the First Order when he has a fleet of planet destroying ships even if they weren't ready yet. Hell the Galactic Government didn't even have a military. He basically fucks himself over by creating the First Order in the first place.

    Yeah at the force lightning lol. Or at the very least use one hand to point at her feet....
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-01-11 at 02:56 AM.

  7. #5827
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Then why were they kidnapping kids and not just breeding his loyal followers to raise their own indoctrinated kids? Or you know using the clones he had that had built in to be completely loyal?

    Also why would he have even needed to create the first order in the first place when he already had over 12 million followers on over 200 star destroyers with mini death star tech?
    The people who made up the First Order are the ones who make up his empire besides some Sith cultists. None of the stuff just popped up overnight.

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  8. #5828
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    The people who made up the First Order are the ones who make up his empire besides some Sith cultists. None of the stuff just popped up overnight.
    The people who made up some of the first order were loyalists. The majority if not all the troopers were kidnapped kids. And many of the first order had no clue about the emperor or the fact that Snoke was a clone.

  9. #5829
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yeah and who were those clones of??? A merc. Do you really think cloning the millions of loyalists he had in waiting wouldn't have made for more loyal clones? Especially if they were so loyal he was willing to keep them after the first purge.
    That's not how clones work. You don't get 100% same person. All the clone troopers had different personalities, they were all different in the force. Jedi could literally tell the clones they were with apart by sensing them with the Force. There is zero evidence that cloning a loyal soldier would yield more loyal soldiers.

    And that isn't the argument I was making. Yes, he could have done nothing and built the group in secret, however he would have had no say in how the external galaxy was moving. In Legends, Bane would often ignite rebellion in the Republic before they were ready to keep the Republic in power ... so one day it would be weak enough to take over. He was literally starting fights that he intended to lose badly. If the remaining Empire troops suddenly disappeared, rather than have some reorganize into the First Order, it would have been suspicious and we don't know what would have happened.

    By having the First Order and for the most part the First Order appeared inept until the destruction of the Hosnian system, it may have help ease them into believing the First Order is not a threat. We know they stole kids, but they also recruited them as well. People volunteered to join the First Order. Keep in mind, we are dealing with a character in a Fantasy setting ... their logic doesn't always make the most sense when you sit down and think about it.

    Palpatine's plan in the prequels relied on the Jedi being okay using clones of a man they knew worked with Dooku ... the leader of the Separatists. If the Jedi went, "Yeah, no, we aren't fighting with these clones" Order 66 happens differently. His plan also relied on Padme willing to leave Coruscant (which why? you can't hide on a planet of 1 trillion people) so that Jar Jar could be manipulated into granting him emergency powers.

    If you stop and think about any of Palpatine's plans too much, it stops making sense. He took way too many risks that risk exposing everything.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  10. #5830
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That's not how clones work. You don't get 100% same person. All the clone troopers had different personalities, they were all different in the force. Jedi could literally tell the clones they were with apart by sensing them with the Force. There is zero evidence that cloning a loyal soldier would yield more loyal soldiers.

    And that isn't the argument I was making. Yes, he could have done nothing and built the group in secret, however he would have had no say in how the external galaxy was moving. In Legends, Bane would often ignite rebellion in the Republic before they were ready to keep the Republic in power ... so one day it would be weak enough to take over. He was literally starting fights that he intended to lose badly. If the remaining Empire troops suddenly disappeared, rather than have some reorganize into the First Order, it would have been suspicious and we don't know what would have happened.

    By having the First Order and for the most part the First Order appeared inept until the destruction of the Hosnian system, it may have help ease them into believing the First Order is not a threat. We know they stole kids, but they also recruited them as well. People volunteered to join the First Order. Keep in mind, we are dealing with a character in a Fantasy setting ... their logic doesn't always make the most sense when you sit down and think about it.

    Palpatine's plan in the prequels relied on the Jedi being okay using clones of a man they knew worked with Dooku ... the leader of the Separatists. If the Jedi went, "Yeah, no, we aren't fighting with these clones" Order 66 happens differently. His plan also relied on Padme willing to leave Coruscant (which why? you can't hide on a planet of 1 trillion people) so that Jar Jar could be manipulated into granting him emergency powers.

    If you stop and think about any of Palpatine's plans too much, it stops making sense. He took way too many risks that risk exposing everything.
    He was willing to kill off anything and everything. Why not just kill any children of his followers or clones of them that acted out of line? And again he already knew how to make em pretty damn loyal using a merc as a base. Even if they weren't 100% loyal its a hell of a lot less risky than using people you have no idea about. Especailly when you are kidnapping random kids and raising awareness of a threat thats kidnapping a shit ton of kids from the galaxy instead of just indoctrinating your followers kids. Hell you could have your followers have a ton of kids then order them to kill their own kids. Kill any who don't and then repeat the process and eventually you will have bred a nearly perfectly loyal army.

    He could have had spies in the Galactic government apprising him of any potential situations. The Galactic Government didn't even have a military. Running around beating everyone is only going to stir the pot and considering it was rebels that owned him last time you would think he wouldn't do a repeat of that. And how did the First Order appear inept when they kidnapped hundreds of thousands of kids?




    Also Jar Jar was never manipulated he was the manipulator.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-01-11 at 03:31 AM.

  11. #5831
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The people who made up some of the first order were loyalists. The majority if not all the troopers were kidnapped kids. And many of the first order had no clue about the emperor or the fact that Snoke was a clone.
    You asked why they why they needed to create the First Order. To recruit people and obtain resources. How did they do that? The loyalists from the Empire, the kids they kidnapped, and conscripts.

    You ask why not one way, but why not all three if you can?

    Why no clones? There's probably an in-universe explanation somewhere be it Palpatine doesn't like them or whatever being that he phased them out almost immediately during the Imperial Era.

    Looking at Snoke deterioration, doesn't seem like Clone technology has progressed much.

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  12. #5832
    Bottom line is this new trilogy is not canon. The story is trash and doesn't make sense. Only first 6 movies count. This is the same as with Terminator. Only the first two movies count the rest didn't fuckin happen.

  13. #5833
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Plus no one cares to hate on it over the past 25-30 years where it's been in every medium (books, games (Jedi knight, (ko)tor etc) has had force healing in.

    But suddenly it is in the sequels it is bad?
    Also after The Force Awakens: "It's a copy! They didn't have anything new!"

    After the other movies: "They put all this new stuff in it! It's not canonnnnnnnnnnnn!!"

  14. #5834
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Also Jar Jar was never manipulated he was the manipulator.
    If you are just going to be a troll, I am done.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #5835
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    You asked why they why they needed to create the First Order. To recruit people and obtain resources. How did they do that? The loyalists from the Empire, the kids they kidnapped, and conscripts.

    You ask why not one way, but why not all three if you can?

    Why no clones? There's probably an in-universe explanation somewhere be it Palpatine doesn't like them or whatever being that he phased them out almost immediately during the Imperial Era.

    Looking at Snoke deterioration, doesn't seem like Clone technology has progressed much.
    Snoke wasnt deteriorated thats why he looks identical in the clone tanks as he did before. And if Palpatine was using cloning to create a figurehead for the first order which is such an important position you really think he wouldn't have done so for the rank and file? He had to have at least 12 million people on his star destroyers alone and nobody could get to his planet without one of the 2 wayfinders. You really think Kylo wouldn't have questioned where half his fucking fleet suddenly went??


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    If you are just going to be a troll, I am done.
    From wikipedia:
    "In response to the speculations, actor Ahmed Best tweeted, "I will say this, it feels really good when the hidden meaning behind the work is seen. No matter how long it takes," apparently confirming the theory.[40] Some months later, he expanded upon his tweet in a YouTube interview, stating, "there is a lot about it that is true, there are some things about it that are not true... Could Jar Jar have evolved into that? I think the answer is yes. Because of the backlash, and rightfully so, Lucasfilm backed off of Jar Jar a lot, but a lot of the influence that I put into the character mirrored a lot of what was already in the Star Wars universe." Best concluded only George Lucas could unveil the actual role of Binks, yet he also revealed that a deleted scene from Attack of the Clones would have still shown Palpatine darkly confiding his plans about the Empire to Jar Jar.



    J. J. Abrams, who directed two installments of the franchise's sequel trilogy after its buyout by Disney, personally approved the theory about the villainous Jar Jar. He described Lumpawarroo's argumentation as an "unbelievably lengthy analysis, in a very seriously thought-out way, as to why it's obviously true.""
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-01-11 at 05:23 PM.

  16. #5836
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    From wikipedia:
    "In response to the speculations, actor Ahmed Best tweeted, "I will say this, it feels really good when the hidden meaning behind the work is seen. No matter how long it takes," apparently confirming the theory.[40] Some months later, he expanded upon his tweet in a YouTube interview, stating, "there is a lot about it that is true, there are some things about it that are not true... Could Jar Jar have evolved into that? I think the answer is yes. Because of the backlash, and rightfully so, Lucasfilm backed off of Jar Jar a lot, but a lot of the influence that I put into the character mirrored a lot of what was already in the Star Wars universe." Best concluded only George Lucas could unveil the actual role of Binks, yet he also revealed that a deleted scene from Attack of the Clones would have still shown Palpatine darkly confiding his plans about the Empire to Jar Jar."
    Perhaps you should read that again.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  17. #5837
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Perhaps you should read that again.
    Yes. And where does that say JarJAr is cowering in fear? And J. J. Abrams, who directed two installments of the franchise's sequel trilogy after its buyout by Disney, personally approved the theory about the villainous Jar Jar. He described Lumpawarroo's argumentation as an "unbelievably lengthy analysis, in a very seriously thought-out way, as to why it's obviously true."

  18. #5838
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    He had to have at least 12 million people on his star destroyers alone and nobody could get to his planet without one of the 2 wayfinders. You really think Kylo wouldn't have questioned where half his fucking fleet suddenly went??
    You want a real plot hole in TRoS? That's the one.

    "You need a Sith Wayfinder to get to this planet, and there are only two. Oh, and the flight logs of this guy's ship, cause he's been there. Oh, and the thousands of other ship logs from the apparently regular traffic ferrying huge amounts of personnel and material to the location, to build and staff that fleet in supposed secrecy."

    It's silly, because you can close that plot hole by just stating the path is dangerous, and you need a map. The Sith Wayfinders are one, but any map works. That they don't realize there's been a secret plot and there were other sources is fine, you just need to not pull the bullshit "there's only two Wayfinders, and they're the only way to get there" shit if you're gonna violate that premise yourself a few scenes later.

    I can see Kylo not being aware, because a lot of this was likely started under Snoke; there may just not have been further traffic, and the Final Order may have separated its supply lines from the First Order's records and systems, by that point. But it's not that hard to get to Exogol, clearly. Or else you'd never have gotten the thousands or millions of crew necessary to handle that fleet there. Not to mention the construction crews, the materials, the supplies like food to keep them healthy, etc. There had to be regular transport.


  19. #5839
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yes. And where does that say JarJAr is cowering in fear? And J. J. Abrams, who directed two installments of the franchise's sequel trilogy after its buyout by Disney, personally approved the theory about the villainous Jar Jar. He described Lumpawarroo's argumentation as an "unbelievably lengthy analysis, in a very seriously thought-out way, as to why it's obviously true."
    What argument are you even having now? You are totally insane off the rails right now, care to get back on tract?
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  20. #5840
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, you know how writers love their MacGuffins.
    Ive seen this word used more in the last week than the entire of last year.

    People on the net sure love their buzz words.

    You can just point how bad plot points without having to use the new fad term.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

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