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  1. #1

    Survivability vs DPS as Prot Paladin

    Hey Guys,

    some tanks can choose between tankyness and damage with a different rotation/talentsetup. I don't like that to be honest.
    Guardian Druid can either use Ironfur or their dps rage spender... that's not a good a concept in my opinion. If a player is decent at his rotation and is doing good damage, he shouldnt be punished with being weaker defensive-wise.... or the other way around... if i want to be tanky, it doesnt mean that i want to do less damage.
    Soooo my question is, does the prot paladin suffers from the same problem or is good rotation (dmg) = good tankyness :?
    Which tanks reward a good rotation with good survivability ?
    Brewmaster is the only one i know right now (more kegsmashes = more brews = more active mitigation)

  2. #2
    every class rewards optimising your rotation with better survivability, that's a constant. The tradeoff for dps is a constant with every tank class aswell and it makes a lot of sense because it incentivizes optimal play and thinking about when the tradeoff is worth it and when its not.

    But if you want to purely play defensive then any class will get a survival gain from playing your rotation optimally, you just won't see great damage from doing an optimal survival rotation in most cases.

  3. #3
    Ultimately your job as a tank is to have all the aggro and make healing you as easy as possible.

  4. #4
    thats the terrible player mentality.

    You should be trying to maximise yourself in each regard, your dps is a facet of that aswell.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dileria View Post
    Guardian Druid can either use Ironfur or their dps rage spender... that's not a good a concept in my opinion.
    Theoretically, this should make the player adapt to the situation and think before they spend their rage instead of blindly following a set rotation. A rotation that changes based on what's going on isn't inherently bad, but sounds like you just want a DPS rotation while tanking instead of having to think and adapt to how the fight's going.

    As to your question, since you no longer take Seraphim you don't really trade survivability for damage. Judgements lower CD on AM and keeping AM not at 3 charges are about it. Doing an AS before SotR does strengthen it, as does standing in consecration.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dileria View Post
    Hey Guys,

    some tanks can choose between tankyness and damage with a different rotation/talentsetup. I don't like that to be honest.
    Guardian Druid can either use Ironfur or their dps rage spender... that's not a good a concept in my opinion. If a player is decent at his rotation and is doing good damage, he shouldnt be punished with being weaker defensive-wise.... or the other way around... if i want to be tanky, it doesnt mean that i want to do less damage.
    Soooo my question is, does the prot paladin suffers from the same problem or is good rotation (dmg) = good tankyness :?
    Yes, you can pick seraphim talent to do more dps and sacrifice tons of your active mitigation stacks over the course of the fight, same thing with other talents, for example blessed hammer is a dps increase but got nerfed defensively to the point it's not the best defensive talent anymore, same debate could be said about first avenger (dps increase) vs other talents in that row. Also picking hand of the protector and using it as much as possible to heal others - dps loss due to it being on gcd. Usage of wings is less of a concern now that we don't have leggo helm for double heal charges, but in the past people would hold off wings to bump self healing in rare cases, in most it's a non issue though you use it just for dps.

    Tbh paladin has probably the most of these quirks "dps or extra tankyness", demon hunter has some too, but now that fiery brand isn't a dps cooldown baseline anymore and talented is 20% dps increase down from 70% it's less of a deal, still there are some talent choices you could debate picking dps options sacrifices something.

    Warrior is in a better boat because the current cookie cutter build rewards you from using demo shout on cd, but yeah, it makes it into both defensive and offensive cd.

    DK and Monk have probably the least tradeoffs, DK has dancing rune weapon as a dps / defensive cd, but the defensive value of it is not so great and in most scenarios you'd use it for dps anyway just benefiting from the passive parry. Monk has very little tradeoffs overall now that blackout combo is weaker without face palm artifact trait, and picking niuzao vs other talents is more about situational choice than offense vs defense.

    If you want a tank that doesn't need to change talent setup and rotation much to do dps and not lose defensively, I'd suggest DK or Monk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pay928 View Post
    As to your question, since you no longer take Seraphim you don't really trade survivability for damage.
    Mostly because people find it too clunky to spend 2 gcds for wings into seraphim before they can pew pew.

    Tbh warrior has the same problem, both avatar and demo shout are on gcd.

    P.S. I wouldn't mind if they deleted seraphim from the game, in the current edition no one likes it. They fixed these problems of multiple gcds until you can dps for many dps specs like fury warrior or frost dk, but somehow forgot tanks.

  7. #7
    If you are a rolling a tank your job is to be easy to heal, and take hits... you want dps roll dps.
    Member:BFA Alpha, Member since 2/7/2018

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    If you are a rolling a tank your job is to be easy to heal, and take hits... you want dps roll dps.
    Damage output has been a consideration for tanks for years and unless you want to be a burden on your group(s) it's probably a good idea to accept that.

  9. #9
    I want to also reiterate that the tank's job is to basically optimize their defense and "healability" to a point, and after that they should then focus on increasing their dps. The idea that you should just continually stack on more and more defense to make the healer's job easier, when in fact you have crossed the threshold of being able to somewhat comfortably make it through the encounter is just really silly to me.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Yes I agree, the Legion Guardian Druid is a pretty good example of this plus you have things like pre-potting and catweaving when offtanking for added damage when possible.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    If you are a rolling a tank your job is to be easy to heal, and take hits... you want dps roll dps.
    Once you're safe you should be aiming for dps, it'll help the raid out more anyway as the aim is to kill the boss. some fights are so tightly tuned for dps that every little helps out (even the healers throwing some random dps in when they can)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by blueprint21 View Post
    thats the terrible player mentality.

    You should be trying to maximise yourself in each regard, your dps is a facet of that aswell.
    Excuse me? You're saying that having aggro and reducing damage is a terrible player mentality? That's rich.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    Excuse me? You're saying that having aggro and reducing damage is a terrible player mentality? That's rich.
    Getting agro (which has been a joke for years) and reducing damage is a tanks priority but don't be one of them players who brush off tanks damage completely.
    Majority of this game always say tanks should never worry about the damage they do which is just straight up bollocks.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TwentyTwelve View Post
    Getting agro (which has been a joke for years) and reducing damage is a tanks priority but don't be one of them players who brush off tanks damage completely.
    Majority of this game always say tanks should never worry about the damage they do which is just straight up bollocks.
    I never said damage wasn't important. I said staying alive and having threat was #1. That is not a terrible player's opinion, it's a fact.

    And about threat being a joke, when's the last time you queued as DPS and saw a tank lose aggro on something? Today? Yesterday? Last year? TBC? Im guessing it was more recent than your comment would let on.

  15. #15
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    Lol what dps... cuz prot doesn't have any. Just maximize your survival.
    LOL

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    I think we may be waiting a long time for that to happen. Maybe even forever.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I never said damage wasn't important. I said staying alive and having threat was #1. That is not a terrible player's opinion, it's a fact.

    And about threat being a joke, when's the last time you queued as DPS and saw a tank lose aggro on something? Today? Yesterday? Last year? TBC? Im guessing it was more recent than your comment would let on.
    I have mained tanks for years and agro has been a joke since Cata, they buffed threat like twice because people on these forums tend to give every tank the same advice

    "you're a tank, be a meatshield" "dps do the dps not tanks" - This is why pug tanks do suck and lose agro, they do not put the effort in because either:
    - They are lazy and cant be asked optimizing
    - They've been advised wrong.

    I remember tanking in HFC, My mannoroth farm consisted of me playing a complete different game without having any fucking agro issues, Threat WAS a joke, We have to see how 120 is but for the past 5+ years, Tanking has been easy as fuck to just be a damage magnet.

    Agro right now can be a bit shit but only because this content is no longer relevant, the pre patch was not released with everything balanced around 110.
    There are very few right now who can be a bit of a pain with how much threat they pull and it's only at the start of an AoE pack.

    Your advice is right in the sense that a tank should focus on surviving first but "healing as easy as possible" can be very misleading, Damage from a tank matters a lot during first few weeks of progression for ANY guild - doesn't matter if its 1st week release of the raid, if you're guild is getting to the halfway point of a tier 4 months down the line, chances are you lack damage as well as mechanical players.

    With the toolkit paladins have had, you can tank in any gear setup and many have, including the person who responded to you first actually. If you died this expansion most of the time it was the person not the gear, You failed to mitigate properly that's all there is. With that said, if you can survive any encounter in any gear setup with proper play why would you not go for the most damage possible?

    Obviously going full DPS mode would have its limits but we shouldn't be telling tanks to go full turtle to make healers life easier at the cost of the kill. Can he heal me? Yes? Does he want to AFK? Screw him, it's a mix of the two. You gear until you feel you're not at risk of dying and then focus purely on damage.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TwentyTwelve View Post
    wall
    Yeah, dude that's all great and stuff. Still don't know why you're trying to argue. I never said DPS wasn't important. If you really want to be helpful then tell the OP how to maximise both. I mean, that should be super easy for someone as incredibly accomplished as you. Besides, in most circumstances survivability and damage use different resources and don't share GCD's.

  18. #18
    The terrible player mentality is one where you're not optimising your dps whilst optimising your defensive capabilities. Ultimately your job as a tank is to have as little chance of dying as you possibly can, and do as much damage as you can whilst doing that.

  19. #19
    Again, you're not really even saying anything. Most tanks naturally optmise DPS by simply playing correctly and hit survivability buttons when needed/required. Often off GCD. You guys are talking like there's two completely different ways to play, and that is simply not the case. It's not like 2004 when Warriors had to choose between Sunder Armor or Heroic Strike with low rage.

  20. #20
    what? the VAST majority of tanks aren't optimising either their dps or their defensive play, thats not even up for debate the endless amount of logs prove that to be glaringly true.

    And there are different ways to play as far as your rotational priority goes when it comes to dps vs survival. This entire expansion AS was better DPS than judgment and was priority in your rotation when dpsing, but judgment was better defensively because of the CDR or SoTR.

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