1. #6001
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    That's mostly theoretical, granted, but if you ask people what they expected from "azerite rework in 8.2" I don't think many would say that they just wanted a couple of things, I think the expectations were that they will actually work on classes - not only fix issues like the one mentioned, but actually provide better = more interesting and useful azerite traits.
    Azerite rework was never about the classes themselves. In Legion, our artifacts and their specific traits were connected to our classes intentionally aka class design tied to Artifacts. You were expected to be an Arcane mage that eventually and always had access to Rule of Threes trait for example.

    In BFA, the Azerite traits are not tied to class design. What this means is there aren't any traits you're expected to always have as an Arcane Mage, or Destro Lock, etc. That was a Legion class design and in BFA they moved away from it which is why some integral Artifact features either became baseline or a talent tree.

    It is entirely a player's own fault for thinking Azerite traits is meant to replace Legion Artifacts. Azerite traits were to act as pseudo-Legion Leggos but much less powerful.

    Now I'm not going to say they don't have work to do on a class design perspective, but that's not something that was tied to Azerite traits at all. Also we know that Blizzard is adverse to making class design changes like they do between expansions, during an expansion. So expecting that is pretty nonsensical.

  2. #6002
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    We kinda had that on Timeless Isle - ignore the main cast of a Kilnmaster or respond too slowly and you are near-dead, same for other mobs.

    I don't know if this would fix much. I mean, yeah, that's perhaps somewhat more fun than mobs that do nothing, but I am feeling bad about my spec not because the mobs are dumb, but rather because the spec is dumb. When the spec is good, I don't care much about mobs being dumb because I can create difficulty by pulling more / soloing heroics and mythics / soloing extreme things in old raids, etc. And how smart can you make the mobs before this starts being annoying? After you beat the smart mob the first twenty times, with every next time you increasingly start looking at this as "yeah, yeah, fine, I have to spend a minute killing you and have to keep interrupt your cast which makes you immune for 30 sec" and this just gets annoying.

    Anyway. I can feel the focus of my attention shifting from 8.2 (which perhaps won't do much to specs) to 9.0. And I am kind of fearing of what it's going to be in 9.0. I mean, a lot of people yelled at them to fix specs and 8.2... apparently not enough time or whatever. So, who's going to say that they will make things better in 9.0?
    As I said, the fix is to make us strong and then give us hard challenges that utilize our strengths. But making us strong involves reversing much of the pruning so we have a wide range of abilities back.

    One thing I have been considering for a while (that would probably not work) and posted about earlier in a different thread is a Heroic Mode opt-in. You can opt-in to Heroic Mode only on Org/SW like with War Mode. World quests, emissaries and the rest only scale past basic ilvl when you have Heroic Mode up. With Heroic Mode, the world becomes much more dangerous and scales to your ilvl. And to make up for the added difficulty, not only do you get the better rewards but you also get access to additional abilities like the ones from War Mode.

    As for short term solutions one thing that CAN work is to have HoA grant as passives certain talents (like the 7.2 legendary class rings). Yes that essentially decreases choice but I think it could do a decent job of fixing design issues with far less work done (since you don't need to retune old passives).

  3. #6003
    ^^ Somewhere in that line of giving challenges should be a BFA version of the mage tower - it really was a great feature in Legion. My biggest issue with it was that it wasn't balanced evenly, but in retrospect I'd take that, it's still good. Maybe in 8.3...

  4. #6004
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    ^^ Somewhere in that line of giving challenges should be a BFA version of the mage tower - it really was a great feature in Legion. My biggest issue with it was that it wasn't balanced evenly, but in retrospect I'd take that, it's still good. Maybe in 8.3...
    I would love a Mage Tower 2.0 as well. As someone who only raids intermittently and doesn't really do M+, it's nice to have challenging content to strive for. Gave me a reason to level alts too.

  5. #6005
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    ^^ Somewhere in that line of giving challenges should be a BFA version of the mage tower - it really was a great feature in Legion. My biggest issue with it was that it wasn't balanced evenly, but in retrospect I'd take that, it's still good. Maybe in 8.3...
    I am not sure.
    Mage Tower was awesome in Legion, yes. But it was awesome because you had a reason to do it with 36 specs and that meant getting legendaries and gearing 12 characters. You also had many other reason to do that; seeing the artifact acquisition and class campaign quests, getting the class mounts, having as many alts as possible for gold farming through the mission table. None of this is true in BfA. I am unsure that many people have bothered leveling multiple alts because there is far less of a reason to do so. Also Mage Tower worked because it was released in 7.2 and thus you had a lot of time to gear up and manage it. If Mage Tower had been released and tuned for 7.3, a far smaller number of people would have been able to complete it.

  6. #6006
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am not sure.
    Mage Tower was awesome in Legion, yes. But it was awesome because you had a reason to do it with 36 specs and that meant getting legendaries and gearing 12 characters. You also had many other reason to do that; seeing the artifact acquisition and class campaign quests, getting the class mounts, having as many alts as possible for gold farming through the mission table. None of this is true in BfA. I am unsure that many people have bothered leveling multiple alts because there is far less of a reason to do so. Also Mage Tower worked because it was released in 7.2 and thus you had a lot of time to gear up and manage it. If Mage Tower had been released and tuned for 7.3, a far smaller number of people would have been able to complete it.
    I can somewhat confirm this. At the end of Legion i ended up doing all the DPS and Tank challenges. But looking back, i think it was less because Mage towers were inherently fun and more from a obsessive collector standpoint, both from limited time items to having one of each class.

    I think you are definitely right in that if Mage tower came out in 7.3 it could not be as popular, and especially not as highly regarded now.
    Much of the rose-tinted glasses from mage towers come, i think, from the fact that by the end of Legion, doing most of the DPS and Tank challenges were trivial, gearing up an alt was very low effort, and overall the reward to effort i believe was far more heavily skewed towards rewards than people consider now.

    I do want another mage tower-esque challenge again, but what i definitely do not want is a half-assed one. Not in rewards, and definitely not content, like i am sure we would have gotten if Blizz decided to go all-in on a system like it for BfA.

  7. #6007
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am not sure.
    Mage Tower was awesome in Legion, yes. But it was awesome because you had a reason to do it with 36 specs and that meant getting legendaries and gearing 12 characters. You also had many other reason to do that; seeing the artifact acquisition and class campaign quests, getting the class mounts, having as many alts as possible for gold farming through the mission table. None of this is true in BfA. I am unsure that many people have bothered leveling multiple alts because there is far less of a reason to do so. Also Mage Tower worked because it was released in 7.2 and thus you had a lot of time to gear up and manage it. If Mage Tower had been released and tuned for 7.3, a far smaller number of people would have been able to complete it.
    If 8.3 Mage Tower would be up 24/7 we would have way more time to do it than in Legion. And special rewards would MAKE reason to level raids + there are usual stuff, before Legion expansions didn't have many class content and people leveled alts anyway.

    About difficulty, they can just nerf them a little in 8.3.5. + BfA shower people with high gear with stuff like warfronts,

    Btw, sometimes I feel that part of BfA content is crafted for me - I have 1 character from all races + 1DK + 1DH for years (so 15 chars in Legion, 23 right now). Now it finally pay off with Horde/Alliance unique content and heritage questlines for specific races.

  8. #6008
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I can somewhat confirm this. At the end of Legion i ended up doing all the DPS and Tank challenges. But looking back, i think it was less because Mage towers were inherently fun and more from a obsessive collector standpoint, both from limited time items to having one of each class.

    I think you are definitely right in that if Mage tower came out in 7.3 it could not be as popular, and especially not as highly regarded now.
    Much of the rose-tinted glasses from mage towers come, i think, from the fact that by the end of Legion, doing most of the DPS and Tank challenges were trivial, gearing up an alt was very low effort, and overall the reward to effort i believe was far more heavily skewed towards rewards than people consider now.

    I do want another mage tower-esque challenge again, but what i definitely do not want is a half-assed one. Not in rewards, and definitely not content, like i am sure we would have gotten if Blizz decided to go all-in on a system like it for BfA.
    I'm of the idea that a BFA "Mage Tower" could be focused in race instead of class/spec (the theme fits better), and could involve getting Racial Weapons. We already have Warfront Armors and Heritage Sets being built around races, so racial weapons would complement that well.

  9. #6009
    Quote Originally Posted by Snicket Lad View Post
    I'm of the idea that a BFA "Mage Tower" could be focused in race instead of class/spec (the theme fits better), and could involve getting Racial Weapons. We already have Warfront Armors and Heritage Sets being built around races, so racial weapons would complement that well.
    While i don't disagree that racial weapons are a cool idea, the have and have-nots of the racial weapons are in fact, quite severe.

    Firstly, each spec would, for it to be fair, be able to get a weapon they could use. Me playing a MM hunter for instance would hav to get at least 1 ranged weapon and 1 polearm for Survival spec.
    I also play Human, which, while certainly overrepresented is not one of the few lucky ones with a plethora of cool unused weapon models to draw upon. The only weapon i can think of, off the top of my head is Shalamayne, which regardless of the fact that us getting it would be a lore nightmare, is also a sword, and therefore no use to a large chunk of the human classes.

    All in all, while it is easy to just consider the cool weapons like the Blood elf guard glaive and shield, or the DI dwarf drill mace/staff. You still have to consider the amount of effort having to be put in to create the minimum amount of weapons needed for the rewards to be fair.

    And this is kinda the point i was making with not wanting Blizz to rush it, i would rather they sit on the knowledge that Mage tower was a success while considering appropriate content with appropriate rewards that do not feel like an intern made them over the weekend.


    Edit: While i do not want to give the impression i think the idea of rewarding race-themed weapons is dumb, i do want you to consider the sheer amount of weapons needed to satisfy every race/class combo in the game.
    Last edited by Sondrelk; 2019-04-22 at 08:31 PM.

  10. #6010
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I said before that I'd be fine with Legion legendaries / artifact ability returning as essences (with no other essences added), but someone pointed out that they redesigned a couple of specs so for those specs at least Blizzard would have to do new analogs, plus maybe there are other complications. All in all, maybe that's hard, I agree. But they did have a lot of time (at least 4 months now, counting from the release of 8.1) and when I look at HoA I just can't help thinking that they spent at most 1 month on that, it's just so bland and uncreative and unpolished. Like, why? You know that's where the main problem is, don't you (addressing Blizzard)?

    And most of all, suppose I accept that OK, that all is too hard to do, BFA is screwed in that way. OK. What's next? My spec is still hosed. It's pretty terrible. I am not saying that I am going to sit here and whine for the rest of the expansion - I won't - but the end result seems to be so far: 8.2 is not fixing it for folks like me whose main problem is simply the gameplay deteriorating into being unfun.
    Tbh I'm positive 9.0 is going to be a Renaissance period for class design. With all the bitching about it in 8.0, they have no choice. I want them to start adding abilities again. They even said that they wanted to start adding fun stuff and worry about the untidy consequences later.

  11. #6011
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    While i don't disagree that racial weapons are a cool idea, the have and have-nots of the racial weapons are in fact, quite severe.

    Firstly, each spec would, for it to be fair, be able to get a weapon they could use. Me playing a MM hunter for instance would hav to get at least 1 ranged weapon and 1 polearm for Survival spec.
    I also play Human, which, while certainly overrepresented is not one of the few lucky ones with a plethora of cool unused weapon models to draw upon. The only weapon i can think of, off the top of my head is Shalamayne, which regardless of the fact that us getting it would be a lore nightmare, is also a sword, and therefore no use to a large chunk of the human classes.

    All in all, while it is easy to just consider the cool weapons like the Blood elf guard glaive and shield, or the DI dwarf drill mace/staff. You still have to consider the amount of effort having to be put in to create the minimum amount of weapons needed for the rewards to be fair.

    And this is kinda the point i was making with not wanting Blizz to rush it, i would rather they sit on the knowledge that Mage tower was a success while considering appropriate content with appropriate rewards that do not feel like an intern made them over the weekend.


    Edit: While i do not want to give the impression i think the idea of rewarding race-themed weapons is dumb, i do want you to consider the sheer amount of weapons needed to satisfy every race/class combo in the game.
    True, it's a lot of work. I was thinking about the amount of Warfront weapons they did, and multiplying that by the number of races, it does seem to be a lot of work. Particularly considering people would probably expect really nice models from something like Mage Tower. Oh well, one can dream.

  12. #6012
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Many specs either had small redesigns or significant changes to tuning. I just don't seem them fixing it. I do not at all disagree with you, I simply don't think it is likely at all for things that have been broken over the course of more than 5 years to be fixed.

    Here is the thing. Many suggest that part of the reason for simplifying class design was added complexity in encounter design. While I will not exactly agree that raids are all THAT much more complex than before, dungeons certainly are. Imo the solution that CAN be implemented on the short term would be for the world mobs added in 8.2 and perhaps later on to be more complex. And by that I don't mean have more health but rather have mechanics that if you ignore, you are FUCKED (and well, have enough health that the survive to use those mechanics at least once).

    Again for me what is imperative is not for them to "fix" the specs. It's to change their design philosophy from punishing bad gameplay (you have weaknesses and if you don't play well, you lose) to rewarding good gameplay (you have many strengths, use them to overcome challenges).
    Yeah I hope at least some areas of Nazjatar have timeless isle upper area levels of mechanics. Don't Dodge the spell? You die. Etc.

  13. #6013
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Yeah I hope at least some areas of Nazjatar have timeless isle upper area levels of mechanics. Don't Dodge the spell? You die. Etc.
    At least when I was riding around Mechagon, the normal mobs were not that difficult, but felt much stronger than the average Kul Tiran Enemy for my 405iLvL Mage.

  14. #6014
    Quote Originally Posted by Alga View Post
    At least when I was riding around Mechagon, the normal mobs were not that difficult, but felt much stronger than the average Kul Tiran Enemy for my 405iLvL Mage.
    This is the thing. "Much stronger" is meaningless because two months in your ilvl 405 Mage will be 430+ and those mobs will become pushovers. You need mobs that have deadly abilities that you have to counter somehow.

  15. #6015
    Mechagnome AbuOfUluru's Avatar
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    Oh shit - I just realised, if mechagnomes become an allied race maybe we'll get gnome druids. Just imagine, mechanical druid forms! I want this more than anything. I need this more than (almost) anything.

  16. #6016
    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    Because basically every other old god quote happened in BFA? As far as I know no lords of ravens opened ANY keys in Legion besides Medivh literally opening a door in Karazhan.
    You are taking it literal. A "turning of the key" does not necessarily mean an actual key. It could have been Khadgar helping us collect the pillars of creation. You know, the pillar of creation that Azshara stole to part the sea? "At her third death...." This was clearly Sargeras stabbing Azeroth, again legion. Plenty of things happened in legion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    It's an interesting idea. I don't think Shaw is involved (he was not a true member of the Uncrowned in Legion, only worked alongside them). But Garona and Voss? Interesting. It's the best idea I heard about the Lord of Crows.


    I think the key is related to the Old Gods, thought. Maybe it's killing (or trying to) Sylvanas, which sparks all the events for the last patch as she either has her "third death" or becomes paranoid enough to seek immortality in any way possible, maybe?



    Because the quotes are all being fulfilled in BfA, so it's reasonable to expect it to also happen in BfA.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I agree, if it's the Alliance attacking because of strategic value or to displace the blood elves.

    But it could lead to peace if we end up there because Sylvanas plans (and ends up doing) something nasty with the Sunwell.
    Untrue, her third death, khadgar helping us collect the 5 pillars. One of them which Azshara uses to part the sea to bring us to her temple in order to use the heart (her heart is a crater....) that Magni gave us (Her is a pawn, unknowingly gave us a heart to fill) which will unlock n'zoth's prison.

  17. #6017
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan11d7 View Post
    You are taking it literal. A "turning of the key" does not necessarily mean an actual key. It could have been Khadgar helping us collect the pillars of creation. You know, the pillar of creation that Azshara stole to part the sea? "At her third death...." This was clearly Sargeras stabbing Azeroth, again legion. Plenty of things happened in legion.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Untrue, her third death, khadgar helping us collect the 5 pillars. One of them which Azshara uses to part the sea to bring us to her temple in order to use the heart (her heart is a crater....) that Magni gave us (Her is a pawn, unknowingly gave us a heart to fill) which will unlock n'zoth's prison.
    "This was clearly"

    Except it isn't so clear.
    For instance, "5 torches to guide our way" mean the Pillars of Creation? Are you sure? Then why is Sylvanas calling Xal'atath a torch to guide her way? Why was Xal'atath calling us a torch to guide the way?

    Even if "her heart is a crater" means the Heart of Azeroth, and not Sylvanas or someone else, that's a BfA event, not Legion.

    Just because you are sure you understood the meaning of the riddles, it doesn't mean you are right. We will only know in hindsight, after the story has been told. To me, that story is BfA, and there's still 2 to 4 patches ahead.
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  18. #6018
    Quote Originally Posted by AbuOfUluru View Post
    Oh shit - I just realised, if mechagnomes become an allied race maybe we'll get gnome druids. Just imagine, mechanical druid forms! I want this more than anything. I need this more than (almost) anything.
    That's a leap.

  19. #6019
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    That's a leap.
    We talked about analogous classes a few pages back - different methods, but similar results. Animal mechs instead of shapeshifts, Alchemy instead of magical healing. Although a (Mecha-)Gnome Mech Druid would be awfully close to a Tinker...

  20. #6020
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    We talked about analogous classes a few pages back - different methods, but similar results. Animal mechs instead of shapeshifts, Alchemy instead of magical healing. Although a (Mecha-)Gnome Mech Druid would be awfully close to a Tinker...
    And we have seen no indication or interest whatsoever on Blizzard's side to do this.

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