1. #6541
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    3.bfa has given us a ton of new mechanics with warmode Azerite warfronts it hasn’t been an either or and there are no similarity’s between the character model updates as we have gotten a metric ton of new art outside of allied races.
    What? We are talking about the scale of features, remember? Warmode is a single switch. That's supposed to be big? I mean, it's useful, thanks for doing it, finally, but it's a single switch, it could have been delivered in a minor patch. Are you arguing that azerite / islands / warfronts are big? They are not. The biggest thing there was the AI and while it is possible that they put tons of hours there, it's also possible that they did not do much beyond just creating a couple behavior patterns just slightly above what NPCs do, with backjumps and "sneaky Pete is here!" -- it's really hard to tell, because that's AI, visible progress is damn uneven and does not correlate with the amount of effort spent.

    In both WoD and BFA there is just not a lot of work done on original features, original features are few and they are shallow. In fact, WoD would actually win here. Garrisons were damn big in terms of new features - ie, they had bodyguards as a small part, and that was an introduction of a feature, unlike in 8.2 which just reuses what was already coded with minor variations. And apart from garrisons, WoD had Ashran, quests that complete using progress bars (yeah, I know, I also am not terribly fond of the mechanic, but that was a new feature, it was sizeable and it had to be designed and coded, that's effort), per-zone events (also a new mechanic), etc. If we are counting azerite, we have to count expansion-wide ring + Draenor perks + new glyphs and effing new stats (multistrike) with wide support in enchants / gems / gear templates for WoD. WoD had more than BFA going here. It just kind of petered out after 6.0 (although 6.2 was not bad).

  2. #6542
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,557
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Your points were absolutely clear and concise dude.

    There is no bias either. You are displeased with the game and you made excellent points as to why you and many others are.

    Never understood why people see criticism and think it's immediately because people don't like the game.

    This isn’t criticism it’s making false equivalences that are so nonsensical that only some one like you who has given up any semblance of fact based observation would look at them and think they line up.

    Bfa has problems but Those problems are not the same as wods but a gust or a storm wind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    What? We are talking about the scale of features, remember? Warmode is a single switch. That's supposed to be big? I mean, it's useful, thanks for doing it, finally, but it's a single switch, it could have been delivered in a minor patch. Are you arguing that azerite / islands / warfronts are big? They are not. The biggest thing there was the AI and while it is possible that they put tons of hours there, it's also possible that they did not do much beyond just creating a couple behavior patterns just slightly above what NPCs do, with backjumps and "sneaky Pete is here!" -- it's really hard to tell, because that's AI, visible progress is damn uneven and does not correlate with the amount of effort spent.

    In both WoD and BFA there is just not a lot of work done on original features, original features are few and they are shallow. In fact, WoD would actually win here. Garrisons were damn big in terms of new features - ie, they had bodyguards as a small part, and that was an introduction of a feature, unlike in 8.2 which just reuses what was already coded with minor variations. And apart from garrisons, WoD had Ashran, quests that complete using progress bars (yeah, I know, I also am not terribly fond of the mechanic, but that was a new feature, it was sizeable and it had to be designed and coded, that's effort), per-zone events (also a new mechanic), etc. If we are counting azerite, we have to count expansion-wide ring + Draenor perks + new glyphs and effing new stats (multistrike) with wide support in enchants / gems / gear templates for WoD. WoD had more than BFA going here. It just kind of petered out after 6.0 (although 6.2 was not bad).
    It’s not about scale it’s about them being the similar. Warmode also adds in air drops, assassins, bounty’s, it’s not just a on off switch for PvP. But even then if you want to account in gems and glyphs and what not it just shows that they are even further from each other then Nyel thinks they are:
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2019-05-07 at 02:07 PM.

  3. #6543
    ^^ Fair enough with warmode having airdrops / bounties. Yes, they should be counted. I think the point was that both WoD and BFA added few new things and that those new things were not deep, that's why they cannot / could not carry the expansion. Maybe I misunderstood.

  4. #6544
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,557
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    ^^ Fair enough with warmode having airdrops / bounties. Yes, they should be counted. I think the point was that both WoD and BFA added few new things and that those new things were not deep, that's why they cannot / could not carry the expansion. Maybe I misunderstood.
    Even then no big scale feature has carried an expan other then mythic+, mop added pet battles which most ignored, cata added a world revamp again ignored, wrath added the 10/25 raid split but that’s not really a big feature.

    All of this is a side point though, nyel’s point was that wod and bfa were cosmetic focused but that’s just not true wod Proabbly had less then any expan and added in a ton of stuff like new stats garrisons ect, and bfa has way more cosmetics then every other expan and adds stuff like Azerite and warfronts. The updated models and allied races aren’t similar as the updates models seem to have been the focus of the art team in wod to the detriment of other new art where allied races haven’t effected the tons of art in other places.

    It’s just another false equivalent that falls apart if you look at it at all like all of nyels other points.

  5. #6545
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Even then no big scale feature has carried an expan other then mythic+, mop added pet battles which most ignored, cata added a world revamp again ignored, wrath added the 10/25 raid split but that’s not really a big feature.

    All of this is a side point though, nyel’s point was that wod and bfa were cosmetic focused but that’s just not true wod Proabbly had less then any expan and added in a ton of stuff like new stats garrisons ect, and bfa has way more cosmetics then every other expan and adds stuff like Azerite and warfronts. The updated models and allied races aren’t similar as the updates models seem to have been the focus of the art team in wod to the detriment of other new art where allied races haven’t effected the tons of art in other places.

    It’s just another false equivalent that falls apart if you look at it at all like all of nyels other points.
    That's what those 2 do. One spews BS, the other then hails that BS as gospel.

    Best to ignore them and not give them attention, they're derailing the thread every single damned time they're here because they can't stand having a thread that's mostly positive about the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Kul Tiras isolated itself from the other Human nations, only allowing limited trade etc.

    Zandalar was proud before the events of the Warcraft games, not allowing in any outsiders, then concerned by the effects of the Cataclysm, but that first gave rise to Zul, an opportunistic disaster fraud, and just for good measure also in league with the Old Gods. Hence, our hostile encounter with the Zandalari in the 4.1 dungeons and Pandaria.




    Wild thought, what if it's switched? Forsaken settle in Darkshore, while NElves plant a new tree in Silverpine/Gilneas, again under protest from Malfurion, but providing a home to NElves, Worgen and the possible Lightforged Undead.
    Especially if the latter are involved, there's also an attempt to cleanse the Blight in Tirisfal.
    I would hate to lose Tirisfal and Silverpine... Silverpine is my favourite 1-60 zone. But it does seem like they want EK to be for the Alliance and Kalimdor for the Horde. Hopefully they'll keep the zones accessible through timewalking though. :d

  6. #6546
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    ^^ Fair enough with warmode having airdrops / bounties. Yes, they should be counted. I think the point was that both WoD and BFA added few new things and that those new things were not deep, that's why they cannot / could not carry the expansion. Maybe I misunderstood.
    Lol I barely saw airdrops in Warmode when I had it on. It's a boring system anyway and adds nothing.

    As for Bounties. Again nothing special. Just 100 honor because some guy killed a lot of people and you killed them.

    The systems within Warmode are very barebones.

  7. #6547
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,557
    S
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    That's what those 2 do. One spews BS, the other then hails that BS as gospel.

    Best to ignore them and not give them attention, they're derailing the thread every single damned time they're here because they can't stand having a thread that's mostly positive about the game.
    I really should ignore them but the things they say are just so wrong and so easily disproved by even a casual glance that I can’t help my self.

  8. #6548
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Even then no big scale feature has carried an expan other then mythic+, mop added pet battles which most ignored, cata added a world revamp again ignored, wrath added the 10/25 raid split but that’s not really a big feature.
    Let's not get into this or I will start posting big detailed lists again (that's not a threat, it's just that this has been done, the topic is very involved and number/argument-heavy, and it will derail the thread for weeks). BFA is going to lose big time. In terms of dev-effort on features, very schematically, MOP / Cata >> Legion > WoD >> BFA, with >> meaning "much bigger" and ">" meaning "somewhat bigger". Not counting 8.2 (but factoring that it has not been counted into the comparison). In my opinion.
    Last edited by rda; 2019-05-07 at 03:18 PM.

  9. #6549
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    S

    I really should ignore them but the things they say are just so wrong and so easily disproved by even a casual glance that I can’t help my self.
    Well don't get me wrong, it's good that someone has the patience to call them out on their BS to balance it out, otherwise they'd just spread their misinformation freely.

    BfA has had every bit as much development on it as Legion, which was clearly the most developed expansion in the history of this game outside of maybe, MAYBE, Cataclysm (when we still know that the team was smaller), it's just that their choices haven't been golden at every turn. But then again, these forums hated pretty good on Legion as well during its first half. We shall see where BfA ends on the MMO-C approval meter once it's over.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2019-05-07 at 03:20 PM.

  10. #6550
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,557
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Let's not get into this or I will start posting big detailed lists again (that's not a threat, it's just that this has been done, the topic is very involved and number/argument-heavy, and it will derail the thread for weeks). BFA is going to lose big time. In terms of dev-effort on features, very schematically, MOP / Cata >> Legion > WoD >> BFA, with >> meaning "much bigger" and ">" meaning "somewhat bigger". Not counting 8.2 (but factoring that it has not been counted into the comparison). In my opinion.
    Comparing expans feature wise was never really my goal because as you said it’s a long off topic debate.

    I was more so just pointing out that nyel’s saying bfa and wod are the same because they focus on cosmetics and not features is untrue.

  11. #6551
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    The systems within Warmode are very barebones.
    What more would you want, though? Open-world PvP is sandbox, for more structure, go into a BG, or play a game that was based on PvP, unlike WoW, which is a PvE MMO with PvP optionally enabled.
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  12. #6552
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,557
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Well don't get me wrong, it's good that someone has the patience to call them out on their BS to balance it out, otherwise they'd just spread their misinformation freely.

    BfA has had every bit as much development on it as Legion, which was clearly the most developed expansion in the history of this game outside of maybe, MAYBE, Cataclysm (when we still know that the team was smaller), it's just that their choices haven't been golden at every turn. But then again, these forums hated pretty good on Legion as well during its first half. We shall see where BfA ends on the MMO-C approval meter once it's over.

    I always find it funny that the same people who are saying bfa is wod 2.0 we’re saying the same thing about legion when it was current but the second they got a new thing to hate on they started singing praise to legion or even wod in some cases.

  13. #6553
    The more annoying part for me is more like this is the Speculation Thread and not the "Eleccy-Scare-Nyel Wisdom Show". Kinda like the last few days coming home and finding a circle jerk of those and no sweet speculations.

  14. #6554
    Scarab Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    In the same urn as Vol'Jin
    Posts
    4,595
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Let's not get into this or I will start posting big detailed lists again (that's not a threat, it's just that this has been done, the topic is very involved and number/argument-heavy, and it will derail the thread for weeks). BFA is going to lose big time. In terms of dev-effort on features, very schematically, MOP / Cata >> Legion > WoD >> BFA, with >> meaning "much bigger" and ">" meaning "somewhat bigger". Not counting 8.2 (but factoring that it has not been counted into the comparison). In my opinion.
    The trouble with this stuff is that it's always speculative and seems to be subjective. I get that people posting it feel that they're being objective and people disagreeing are being unreasonable or ill-informed but the reality is that equally-informed people can disagree strongly about the amount of "investment" put into various features (as we equally lack the particular inside information to know for sure - a low-effort seeming feature, for example, may actually have been one where huge effort was put in and scrapped repeatedly c.f. Diablo 3 being restarted what, 3-4 times during development?) and their relative value and so on. So you could start doing that again, but I don't think it would really inform the debate. Further, a simple and cheaply added feature which is popular is surely more important an in-depth one that people aren't keen on. But it's all a bit beside the point, as Cata's Old World rework rather demonstrates - huge effort, definitely gigantic effort - multiple zones physically redesigned and revamped, countless quest-chains, and yet... it has a lot of problems. Many of the zones aren't very fun (even less fun in many cases than the vanilla versions), and it's stuck in the peculiar time period which the rest of WoW is minimally interested in (pretty much every expansion except WoD gets more callbacks than Cata's actual cataclysm).

    I think one issue WoW is experiencing now is that the actual cost of adding content is a lot higher than it was. The more pixels, the more polys, the more expected voice-work, the higher detail of terrain (I would say I love a lot of MoP's terrain but going back there it's obvious that it was less demanding and it's not as well-designed in terms of routes through the zone and so on). So the number of people they need working to add content of the same equivalent quality is likely gradually increasing. This is something impacting the entire gaming industry of course. But the reality is you need a bigger art team, you need a bigger writing team, and so on. I think this impacted BfA a fair bit. It doesn't really matter if BfA actually had far more investment in terms of money/man hours/etc. that shoddy old WoD, because the clear result is that it hasn't been quite as successful as hoped. It's incredible for a game of this age but WoW is a unique thing so that's also irrelevant.

    To bring things back to speculation, I've been away for several months, are we still expecting BfA to lead into a Lich King 2 scenario, or is there some other dominant theory?
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2019-05-07 at 04:01 PM.

  15. #6555
    For my part I am currently not sure. I guess it will depend on the outline of 8.3 and even the Eternal Palace Cinematic. If N'Zoth loses this addon, something with Death, Spirit and Decay is certainly coming, but if N'Zoth just broke free and doesnt show directly what he has planned in Freedom than I think this stuff will be either a sideplot in the future or story for another addon.

  16. #6556
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In some Sanctuaryesque place or a Haven
    Posts
    44,683
    To bring things back to speculation, I've been away for several months, are we still expecting BfA to lead into a Lich King 2 scenario, or is there some other dominant theory?
    Some said stuff about Dragons and Dragon Isles, Some even think of a Black Empire kinda deal. Bolvar is one of them but it's much more subtle(Taelia being developed along the Kul'Tirian journey) and the Death Knight Campaign from Legion are obvious hints). Then there's all the little tiny breadcrumbs on the Island Expeditions.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

    Warrior-Magi

  17. #6557
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Feralas, Mount Hyal, Quel'Danil Lodge
    Posts
    1,672
    It's not WoD 2.0
    WoD was so wrong from many points of view, starting with the big asspull of time travel so metzen could see his old orc story yet again. WoD was basically a half finished ode to orcs with the lamest approach to player housing you could come up with... A single player housing noone else sees beside.. the player xD

    The faction war is crap and most people would agree here. But even if they are way too downtuned BFA brings a complete new game mode: wafronts. It's a fine game mode for an MMORPG. What's so wrong with the concept? Nothing. The problem is the difficulty is super low and you can't lose.
    No idea why they made it so freaking easy

    I think BFA will still deliver with that Naga patch. Stop exaggerating please. It's ridiculous. If you are bored maybe stop to play the game for some months.
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Sylwina | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - Plus 20 more...

  18. #6558
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    To bring things back to speculation, I've been away for several months, are we still expecting BfA to lead into a Lich King 2 scenario, or is there some other dominant theory?
    The community is sort of split in this, some believe it'll lead into a Black Empire expansion, others believe it'll continue with us exploring the Dragon isles. (Obviously there are a few players still speculating on it being LK 2.0).

    Personally I believe it'll be a N'zoth/Black Empire expansion, and 8.3 will be more about the preparations to face him while we make sure the world doesn't go boom.

  19. #6559
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    To bring things back to speculation, I've been away for several months, are we still expecting BfA to lead into a Lich King 2 scenario, or is there some other dominant theory?
    (Hi, haven't seen you in a while, nice surprise. Not going to talk about dev-effort, that's not going to lead anywhere. Agree that a lot of effort does not necessarily translate into a lot of gameplay, easy things could provide tons of fun, etc.)

    I think the general opinion is that we are going to awaken NZoth or that he gets into power by himself. If you are asking about Sylvanas, I really don't know what will happen to her, there are many alternatives and I didn't saw any strong pointers towards anything specific.

  20. #6560
    Also I guess often people forgot about this because it was so fast. In Drustvar we had this little Questline with this one Red Dragon lady preventing some Necromancy stuff from a Death Knight. At the end she told us something like we will see again in the future.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •